Abzan Falconer
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Sept. 11, 2014, 1:47 p.m. by AngryBearTony
Uh, wow.
"Each creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has flying."
I can't stand how good that sounds.
AngryBearTony says... #3
Would this combo with Obelisk of Urd or Hall of Triumph ? Neither or those specifically say the word 'counter', so I don't know if that would trigger Falconer's effect.
September 11, 2014 2:13 p.m.
No they don't. +1/+1 counters are different than giving a creature +1/+1. Counters stay on the creature until an effect removes them, or the creature changes zones (goes to exile, returns to owner's hand, dies, etc). A +1/+1 effect given by a spell like Giant Growth or a static effect like Honor of the Pure simply modifies the creature's base power and toughness, but if the source (in your case, Obelisk of Urd ) leaves the field, the creature no longer has that buff.
September 11, 2014 2:16 p.m.
Unless it's a spell like Giant Growth or Selesnya Charm that states "until the end of turn". The spell will be gone but the effect remains until EOT.
September 11, 2014 2:18 p.m.
AngryBearTony says... #6
Gotcha. Regardless, with the cards that hand out +1/+1 counters like candy in Abzan, and then cards like Falconer, Tuskguard Captain, and Mer-Ek Nightblade just added, you can have some beefy creatures with flying, deathtouch, and trample. Scary.
September 11, 2014 2:56 p.m.
the outlast mechanic is still very slow and not really constructed playable. It's really far more of a limited mechanic than anything else. You have to invest multiple turns and too much mana to really get anything worthwhile from it. Even in limited it seems underwhelming, although since there is much less removal going around it has more appeal in limited than constructed. More often than not your opponent is going to be playing creatures that easily outclass these creatures that have the outlast mechanic. Then you have to tap down your creature basically clearing the way for your opponent to attack you in order to build up your creatures. You might as well put up a sign that says I'm just hear to fill a seat go ahead and kill me. I would have been much happier to see the outlast ability cost more mana and not have to tap the creature. The fact you have to tap your creature means you can't do it the turn it comes into play.
The ones that give, first strike, trample, deathtouch, flying, lifelink to everything with a +1/+1 counter on it are better in decks where your not utilizing the outlast ability to add the counters, rather using other spells to add them. But, that means your playing a bunch of weaker creatures that require enabler cards like Abzan Ascendancy
to make them worthwhile. It just makes a deck like that feel too dependent on certain cards and very easy to disrupt.
September 11, 2014 3:25 p.m.
But then you have the revelation that you put outlast creatures in a control she'll and you realise 'shit it's an amazing mana sink' and then you realise the true value of the mechanic. If you've got time - it's perfect.
September 11, 2014 3:30 p.m.
My phone is shit at grammar.
Outlast is fine. It's not great and not bad. In a controlling midrange shell its very very good though. It's a true attrition mechanic for those who favour the long game.
September 11, 2014 3:35 p.m.
no not really, if I was playing a control deck I'd rather have the mana available for removal,counter spells,card draw, etc. than wanting to keep feeding it into these guys. I'd also much rather drop down something that can actually finish the game on it's own after I play it, not something I have to invest several turns in afterwards to really make it effective. It can only be done at sorcery speed so it's not like your holding up mana to see what you opponent does and then investing it in outlast if you don't need to respond. You'll need room in your deck for all of the essential control elements and none of the outlast guys is a true finisher. It's also not really a mana sink, you can't just keep funneling mana into it and pump your guy faster. You get to do it once per turn (making it a much larger investments) and because you have to tap your creature to do it you don't actually see any benefit from it till the following turn after, assuming it/you survive.
September 11, 2014 3:52 p.m.
You only need to hold up 2-3 mana in most efficient control decks. Once you reach turn 4 or 5 you can start safely investing one or two.
In a perfect world dropping something like an aetherling is ideal but we're not playing blue so we need something else. This does it fairly nicely.
Doing something slowly once per turn doesn't make it a large investment. Look at rock in modern. That's an incredibly slow deck that doesn't mind doing literally one thing then passing with mana open for abrupt decay. Often you'll pay for a scooze buff then pass. If the scooze dies you start again but it doesn't matter because you have time. Sure you CAN activate scooze like 5 times in a turn but in reality that never happens.
The mentality that control needs 'a finisher' in terms of a single big scary threat isn't necessarily echoed by other formats, disregarding standard. If you can keep control with killspells then slowly build up a big flier or first striker, or whatever it is, you can still do fine.
I think standard needs to break out of the 'counterspell, board wipe, counterspell, aetherling' mentality and into the 'thoughtseize, 2 mana creature, outlast + mana open for killspell, creature + killspell, etc' mentality that's just fine.
September 11, 2014 4 p.m.
Your also talking about modern, a format where your not going to be forced to hold up 3 or 4 mana in order to respond. Like you said your not playing blue, so if your opponent decides to kill your creature then your not stopping it. If you've already invested multiple turns into that creature and then it dies before you get any value out of it, then that is a large investment that has gone to waste. It also means you need to run multiple copies along with other creatures since they don't protect themselves in any way like AEtherling does, eliminating space for the control elements the deck needs. There aren't a lot of cheap removal spells running around this format which means a control deck is going to need a board wipe in order to answer any early plays and stabilize. If you've already invested time and mana into outlast, it's gone to waste when you clear the board, effectively making you wait till at least turn 6, at the earliest, before you play your creature and start building it up. Again this still requires your opponent not being able to answer your creature. Spending multiple turns and lots of mana on something is definitely a large investment (your basically going all in with it), especially when your opponent can answer it just as easily as you do their creatures.
September 11, 2014 4:17 p.m.
I'm not necessarily talking about modern I was just pointing out that playing a control deck where you spend a few turns building up a board position only to have it die is ok and not a big deal. The rock does that and exists. Your creatures dies after you've spent like multiple turns buffing them etc etc and it's just how the game works. I mean, its still among the most played decks in the format and its one where you fully accept that you can put multiple turns into something and it will just die. No big deal.
The board wipe point is entirely true and a very good point. Standard may well rely on board wipes IF we don't get bolsters to our 2-drop killspells.
I think we do need to move away from blue though. We're not playing blue and that's fine. We need to accept that our stuff will die - and that's also fine. A deck that plays like 8 decent 2-drops and a few 3-drops as creatures then has access to somewhere around 24 other spells (12 + 24 gives 36, and room for 24 land which is fine). We do have like Hero's Downfall , Utter End , Bile Blight and various others - so it's not out of the realms of possibility.
I think a large time investment isn't necessarily a loss if it goes to waste and you still essentially have the board clear and under control. However it is a waste in terms of mana investment. If you can guarantee superior card draw and superior creature efficiency (going back to these nice fleshy 2 and 3 drops) then the longer the game goes on, the higher your tempo becomes and the more likely you are to win. Esepcially if decks pack up on 4 cmc stuff. On t4 you can make 2 plays to their 1.
I think what you're saying is entirely 100% correct, but my argument is more 'it doesn't REALLY matter'. Decks exist that cope with that and it's fine. Why not give it a go in standard.
September 11, 2014 4:28 p.m.
I just think your much better off building for the late game and using something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Garruk, Apex Predator . Yes, both of them can be answered and we can't protect them with counter spells, but they both provide extra utility, survive any late game board wipes you need to play (for example: against other token producing decks that can put more than one creature into play a turn), and don't leave your board completely empty if they're answered. Sure they take the same kind of time investment to continuously +1 them, but they require no additional mana investment (leaving mana available for removal or card draw spells) and your able to either push through damage or prevent damage because you don't have to tap your creatues (which effectively takes them out of play when it comes to combat).
September 11, 2014 5:03 p.m.
I think Elspeth is a really good idea, as is the new Sorin.
September 11, 2014 5:18 p.m.
You also shouldn't use Outlast when you're able to swing favorably. IMO the point of the mechanic is to literally OUTLAST the opponent's creatures, which invokes the idea of a stalled board. Considering that this standard will probably be fairly creature-heavy, spending mana (not cards) to make your critters more and more threatening is a solid deal. Look at how much value you're getting out of a card like Herald of Anafenza - a one drop that gets bigger and gives you a body. It's not a choice between attacking or outlasting, it's an option to improve board position in locked boardstates.
Granted, it's not the most exciting ability when facing a control matchup that can kill your dude or doesn't get into stalled boards easily, but that's what balances it. It's a great mechanic to survive against and eventually Outlast creature decks.
Also, [High Sentinels of Arashin] makes all the "creatures you control with a +1/+1 counter gain __" dudes much better. 4 mana for a counter (instant speed, not restricted to once per turn) that makes Sentinels bigger regardless, it's almost a strictly better version of Outlast.
September 11, 2014 6:24 p.m.
hello Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Reap What Is Sown
September 11, 2014 6:45 p.m.
@Goody, Except outlast doesn't really help in a stalled board state. In that situation, I feel it's safe to assume you've got a stalled board state because neither player can attack profitably. If you attempt to "outlast" in that situation your effectively taking your creature out of the equation (by tapping it) and making way for your opponent to now profitably attack into you. Now your going from a stalled board state to being behind.
Even with something like Herald of Anafenza your spending 3 mana for what equates to a 1/1 token and a +1/+1 counter on a tapped creature. There are so many better things you could be doing with 3 mana, Hero's Downfall , Courser of Kruphix , Brimaz, King of Oreskos , Anafenza, the Foremost , Abzan Charm, Abzan Ascendancy , and Banishing Light just to name a few off the top of my head in W/B/G.
September 11, 2014 6:54 p.m.
@swkelly89 I forgot about Reap What Is Sown , thanks. In a way your kind of proving what I originally said. Your much better off finding other ways to add the +1/+1 counters than you are using the "outlast" ability. You receive immediate value because you don't have to tap down your creature and you can put them on creatures without summoning sickness. But like I also said earlier that makes for a deck that easily disrupted because your reliant on those enabler cards to push these weaker creatures over the top, or else your stuck tapping them down for minimal value. I'm not saying a deck like that isn't possible, just more than likely it won't be extremely competitive due to inconsistency and it's more of a tier 2 deck at best.
September 11, 2014 7:01 p.m.
Outlast at sorcery speeds kills any constructed worthiness of the mechanic.
September 11, 2014 7:05 p.m.
MattTheNinja says... #21
Ajani Steadfast 's -2 ability also puts +1/+1 on all your creatures and is in Abzan colors
September 11, 2014 7:06 p.m.
@ChiefBell I like the new Sorin as well. Also it was pointed out to me earlier today that his +1 ability gives your creatures +1/+0 and lifelink, until your NEXT turn, which I really like. I, for some reason, kept missing that when looking at the card and almost kind of assumed it was until end of turn.
September 11, 2014 7:09 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #23
Is it just me, or is Abzan shaping up to be the new, conditional slivers?
Goody says... #2
I'm thinking about having him in a mono white soldier deck alongside high sentinels of arashin.
September 11, 2014 1:56 p.m.