Anybody else really disappointed in BotG?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Jan. 24, 2014, 1:36 a.m. by Arvail
Watching the set spoil a few cards at a time, I often found myself thinking 'don't worry, I'm sure they'll come up with something you'll like.' quite a bit. Never happened... Anyone feeling the same way?
GoldGhost012 says... #2
Theros shook up the meta because it was a large set that supplied many of the new staples. BOTG won't shake up the meta as much because
A) it's a much smaller set. Theros had what, 300 cards? BOTG has half that.
B) BOTG is supposed to augment Theros, not swing the meta in a different direction. I don't think anything like that has happened since Rise of the Eldrazi was released. Maybe Avacyn Restored? Regardless, since it has a lot less cards, it won't immediately bring forth a ton of new decks that can beat the reigning archetypes.
January 24, 2014 12:42 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #3
RokuganiPimp I disagree that this set isn't going to change anything. I don't think white devotion is going to be a thing so much as simple white weenie.
As I said before, Selesnya and Bant should be competitive. With the extra control in white and green, those colors have lots of answers to the devotion decks now. And the G/W scry land will make more people reconsider those colors.
There are definitely going to be more multi-colored decks, and Springleaf Drum will see play as a mana fixer. Probably in Nyx we'll see the return of Izzet as well.
January 24, 2014 12:44 p.m.
RokuganiPimp says... #4
Far and away the most played format of magic is standard. Yes sets are designed in a limited sense as far as flavor and synergy, but where sets make the most impact is and always will be standard, and it's what the vast majority of players are looking for.
So yes limited is a consideration when sets are designed so that everything feels like it belongs together and works together well, but standard is where the cards really matter.
January 24, 2014 12:46 p.m.
RokuganiPimp says... #5
Springleaf Drum is the card i may be most curious about will effect things.
And white ween and devotion to white is really the same thing now. The naming standards of decks is just shifting a bit to reflect the cards. And any white ween deck would be crazy not to play their god because he's fantastic. So white ween and devotion to white are really one and the same.
January 24, 2014 12:50 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #6
I predict Turbofog and RDW as the new "archetypes" to come around into standard. Not entirely sold on the MWD but who knows.
I for one will be going Orzhov control, since (big surprise here) control is getting love rather than aggro.
January 24, 2014 12:53 p.m.
@RokuganiPimp actually, card sets are designed only with limited in mind. Development pushes some cards for constructed, but the vast majority of R&D's efforts goes into creating a good limited environment.
January 24, 2014 12:55 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #9
You can be disappointed in a set from a Standard mindset, but you need to realize that that is only 1 facet of every set and a 165-card block set isn't usually going to blow your mind for standard. Standard is the most played format. But it is dwarfed when you put it up against the combined people playing limited, modern, legacy, edh, etc etc.
In larger sets there will be 5-15 cards that really alter Standard. In a 165-card set there really should only be 3-8 (half). And that is what will happen here. These cards have a ton of amazing interaction across all colors and look really fun as a SET, along with being an extension of the Theros block. For Standard, this set is pretty, well, standard. But for limited, flavor, gameplay (again, the crazy amount of triggers and trigger enablers and new mechanics look awesome), EDH, etc. etc. this set looks fantastic.
White weenie, Bile Blight , Thassa's Rebuff , Drown in Sorrow , Pain Seer , Flame-Wreathed Phoenix /RDW, Unravel the Aether , Fanatic of Xenagos , all of the gods, Siren of the Silent Song, and Springleaf Drum will all alter standard (notice how there's every color represented. What more do you want?
January 24, 2014 1:20 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #10
To qualify that though, development does do their testing in their future future league to make sure nothing breaks standard.
I wasn't very happy with Theros. There were obviously some good cards and it's nice to see mono color decks be a thing after INN/RTR gave us that ridiculous mana situation where you could consider splashing a fourth color. Magic for me though is also very much about the Vorthos side of things and this block has been great for that.
BNG has some great cards to add to the both the Standard environment and the larger formats. It makes this block much more viable in my eyes as another win.
January 24, 2014 1:21 p.m.
solkanarswampking says... #11
Minotaur lovers are happy at least. Hurloon Minotaur Which gives hope for the lonely orcs and dwarves out there. Ironclaw Orcs Dwarven Demolition Team .
January 24, 2014 2:12 p.m.
SkateandDestory says... #12
I hate the set other then the viable minotaur cards for casual.
January 24, 2014 4:49 p.m.
Seems like a fun draft set.. Edh got some new toys.. white got a good fix with 2 playable creatures.. red got a cool new way burn things up.. plus, it's hard to say what will be good next year.. as it stands, I'd give it a C or C+ overall. Sealed, I think it'll be a lot of fun.
January 24, 2014 4:50 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #14
tl:dr so if anyone said this I apologize, but I think we're forgetting that this set has brought a whole new card type: Enchantment Creatures.
January 24, 2014 4:53 p.m.
thataddkid says... #15
HarbingerJK, unless you mean the Theros block in general it is not new. Boon Satyr , Nimbus Naiad , Spearpoint Oread , and many others came with Theros set.
January 24, 2014 5:08 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #16
HarbingerJK the anomaly Lucent Liminid was technically the first enchantment creature back in Future Sight, but I never really understood why it was an enchantment.
RokuganiPimp Mono-colored decks and devotion decks are not the same thing. If it doesn't have a devotion mechanic in it, it's not a devotion deck. There are multi-color devotion decks too. If I play white weenie I won't be using Heliod, God of the Sun in it, but I will use Spear of Heliod . I like to keep a white weenie deck at 3CMC or less.
January 24, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #17
I dont know about the entire set. But they sucked big time with the blue cards. Horrible. There is absolutely gargage blue cards, except maybe 2.
Just alot of hype and trying to fish people for more money in my honest opinion.
The blue/black God is however, awesome.
January 24, 2014 5:21 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #18
clears throat excuuuse me : p but yes I DID mean block so excuuuuse me, and this is the first block to actually give meaning to Enchantment Creatures...if you not on Mythic Spoiler they've added a whole new filter for Creature Enchantments, those weren't there before, so this adds a whole new dimension to the game if you ask me...go ahead and correct me, I'm sure there's some minor little thing that someone wants to correct me on
January 24, 2014 6:25 p.m.
solkanarswampking says... #19
@ HarbingerJK Lucent Liminid was mentioned in an article on wizards.com recently. Apparently the card had some special ability that was cut because Futuresight was already too complicated.
January 24, 2014 7:08 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #20
okay, what's your point exactly? Theros block is the only block that has actually given Enchantment Creatures any meaning besides having a type
January 24, 2014 7:11 p.m.
solkanarswampking says... #21
Who me? I don't have a point I just thought I'd bring up that little fact in case you wanted to look it up for fun. I'm in full agreement with you, this block is doing new stuff. I like enchantment creatures for the same reason I was thrilled to see tribal sorcery, fun twist that makes the cards more meaningful.
January 24, 2014 7:42 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #22
oh word, but to answer the OP's initial question, I am disappointed by BotG. I wouldn't say we were spoiled by Innistrad/RtR block, I mean just look at Scars of Mirrodin block: friggin awesome. And before that there was the awesomeness that was Zendikar. In my opinion, ladies and gentleman, we just have a bit of a dud set. Theros was a cool set, Born of the Gods feels like it's trying too hard to be Theros...having said all that I love Kiora, the Crashing Wave , can't wait to get me some copies! On the other hand, I'm a little disappointed that she's the only PW in the set, but oh well, can't have too many powerful cards I guess
January 24, 2014 8:05 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #23
If there's one part of BotG that REALLY disappoints me, it's Kiora, the Crashing Wave . For a Johnny guild like Simic, their first ever p/w has absolutely no Johnny capabilities, and to top it off, it's horrible and basically not playable. It's a 2 Loyalty PW with a +1 for 4 CMC. Hello Lightning Strike ! And the worst part- the only deck in which it might be mildly playable is the most disgraceful deck to hit Standard in some time- Maze's End Turbofog.
January 24, 2014 8:34 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #24
yeah if anything they should have given her a better starting loyalty, but I have a casual Simic landfall deck I plan to throw her in.
January 24, 2014 9:12 p.m.
I think there are cards in the set that will shake up the format a bit, MuD got some hate. But all in all pretty disappointed. The idea that you could be spoiled by INN set is a bad arguement, that like saying Fallen Empires and Homelsnds was justified because you were spoiled by the earlier sets. As someone who started with those crappolla sets, I think it's BS. Wizards should have learned their lesson after all these years and each new set should be about as balanced as those that preceded it. Yes, disappointed a bit. Some decent cards, but right now nothing that screams omg I need that for my Insert deck type here.
January 24, 2014 10 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #26
I like the flavor, some of the cards are nice, others are rather stale. The only thing i'm really disappointed in is the dual lands, they suck.
January 25, 2014 12:46 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #27
Kiora says protect me 3 turns and win. Will fit in an Azorius control shell. She will be a competitive mainstay. Spikes are happy.
January 25, 2014 1:22 a.m.
hungerwolf says... #28
Well, I hate 3-turn-win aggro, so slowing down the game is good. This may mean "weaker" cards, but that's good. It means that a strategy can actually develop, rather than losing immediately to a deck that tries to subvert strategy with stupid combat tricks.
January 25, 2014 4:03 a.m.
I think I like that vortex elemental but I have been a little quietish because I am back on my original plan which was not buying more cards until the summer. The only reason that plan got hijacked was that C13 came out and I really, really liked certain cards in that set and didn't want to risk waiting until the summer (and found a need to adapt to my meta in a new way - so I got some cards even though I hadn't planned on ityet).
This time there isn't anything like Archangel of Thune that screams "This card embodies the entire strategy of your X deck" so I am watching and waiting until summer again. I think I will find a place for that vortex elemental - pretty sure that I know where already - but I may pick up some other things, too. For me, "watching and waiting" definitely is not a euphamism for "not that into it". As I have been watching and waiting I have picked up a few things from the new set like Thassa and her trident ... and a few other things ... I'm sure there will be more ... it's just rare for a single card to jump out at me the way the archangel of thune did.
January 25, 2014 5:57 a.m.
SwampHippie says... #30
thataddkid don't forget Satyr Firedancer
. I think red got some love this time around, mayybe the same could be said for white. Blue got screwed, not that MUD needed any more help but a decent draw card not named Sphinx's Revelation
, or Jace, Architect of Thought
would be nice in the 2-4 cmc area. Black got a weenie-sweeper that's and a decent looking bestow demon. As far as green goes I don't play it enough to know whats up (or down) over there but it looks like all crap at a glance.
I like that they are slowing the game down... it was in desperate need of a speed bump or two. I know its possible to print interesting/competitive cards that don't warp formats... it just takes more effort than slapping mythic rarity and a grab bag of abilities on it.
January 25, 2014 6:19 a.m.
The thing is though, I'm not really looking for format warping cards. I want some cool instant/sorcery cards, but the heavy focus on creatures and enchantments has reduced the number of those. While there are a few cool ones, there was nothing that really jumped out at me like Whispering Madness , Rakdos's Return , Martial Law etc. from RTR block. While those cards might not have been the most powerful I thought they were fun and have played with all of them. There was nothing that jumped out at me like that in BNG
January 25, 2014 8:34 a.m.
I'm excited for King of Oreos Brimaz, King of Oreskos more than anything. And Spirit of the Labyrinth .
And if they are going to print an ajani in NYX, It could get scary. or not.
January 25, 2014 9:29 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #33
Spike knows to never evaluate a P/W by its ultimate; they all win the game, but pulling it off against a competent opponent is highly unlikely. All Spike sees when looking at Kiora, the Crashing Wave is double Explore .
January 25, 2014 11:20 a.m.
thataddkid says... #34
ChrisHansonBiomancin, that's not necessarily true. I agree in most cases ultimates never happen, but when I play RDW and a Jace, Architect of Thought and a Elspeth, Sun's Champion duo have me dead in the water jace's ult will fetch a Blood Baron of Vizkopa and some goodie from me. It's easy to ult if you have a soft-lock especially on cards like Karn Liberated and Elspeth, Sun's Champion . Some ultimates will never happen, like Kiora, the Crashing Wave 's but not all are unreachable.
January 25, 2014 11:46 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #35
@thataddkid: It does happen occasionally (I have actually been able to ultimate Garruk, Caller of Beasts twice in the last month or so), but what I'm saying is that any P/W's ultimate will win the game, and the chances of that occurring are highly unlikely, so the real evaluation should focus on the other abilities. After all, Ral Zarek has a pretty devastating ult, but he doesn't see play because his other abilities, the ones that are used 98% of the time, are weak. With Kiora, not only do you have a pretty lackluster set of abilities, but also an incredibly frail body considering its CMC.
January 25, 2014 12:14 p.m.
thataddkid says... #36
That's really true. The only way I see Kiora working in a tier 1 deck is if bant control drops her after a Supreme Verdict to lock down a mutavault. At that point though, it would be more worthwhile to just run esper since she's the only good control tool green offers right now.
January 25, 2014 12:16 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #37
Agreed, I think if Bant is going to emerge as a competitive archetype, it will be similar to the current Simic Flash deck, but BNG helps out with the other 2 Scry lands, and White offers some valuable tools for that deck such as Advent of the Wurm , Azorius Charm , Selesnya Charm , and Sphinx's Revelation (and perhaps Detention Sphere for some hard removal).
January 25, 2014 12:32 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #38
Kiora was designed to see competitive constructed play. I think Wizards accomplishes this. Her first ability is great vs midrange. 2nd is good vs control. She seems terrible vs aggro but Jace, Architect of Thought covers that. I think people will swap there amounts of those 2 based on matchups. Ult is attainable with ramp, counters, removal, and Bant control will play some green fatties. Possible turn 4 protected AEtherling , potential for much more lifegain, and great matchup vs MBD. I think she shines in here and Bant will be on par with Esper.
January 25, 2014 12:38 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #39
With ramp you view her as a 3 drop, and that makes the 2 loyalty easier to accept. Use one to ramp and draw. Then replace and protect till ult.
January 25, 2014 12:42 p.m.
How does Kiora hold up against MBD? Hero's Downfall eats her.
January 25, 2014 12:56 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #41
4x Hero's Downfall for a deck that will play 8-10 planeswalkers and a lot of draw is not a huge issue. Kiora blanks a Desecration Demon or Mutavault post wrath.
January 25, 2014 1:13 p.m.
I normally only play weak Planeswalkers only if I have a way to deal with possible removal, and etc. when I play it. I keep an eye on my opponents hand and mana before I do anything, If i see 2 black and maybe something else, if I don't have enough mana for a Dispel or some other counter spell, I save it, but when it is tapped I ALWAYS keep a Cancel or Dissolve when i'm playing any color that has blue.
I drop Kiora, the Crashing Wave , with enough mana to pop a Cancel or Dissolve or even a Dispel if they try to Hero's Downfall me.
January 25, 2014 1:27 p.m.
HelixSnapHelix says... #43
I started in Zendikar and have been playing ever since, but I have to say, it seems like this set is by far the worst since then. Every other set had some REALLY awesome stuff that made things so exciting. This set seems very bland in comparison.
January 25, 2014 3:38 p.m.
this set isn't that great. I do like Thassa, Hero's downfall, sylvan caryatid, Ashiok, and Xenagos (to an extent, not my favorite card, but pretty much the only real good mana acceleration) Nykthos is fine, but rather limiting for use. BotG has kiora, who's main deal is that she -1Explore s Karametra, God of Harvests could be better, but could be rather interesting in a five colour deck with RTR shock lands. But yeah, not too impressed. Hopefully fleecemane lion will make a price jump once shes out.
shuflw says... #1
sets are designed for limited. that is the whole point of card rarity. that is why 165 card sets come out with mostly commons and uncommons. why waste the cardboard on millions of crap commons if they could just sell packs of rares and uncommons for people to build constructed decks?
January 24, 2014 12:40 p.m.