April 2016: Shadows over Innistrad
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Oct. 31, 2015, 6:42 p.m. by JWiley129
Announced during GP Indy, the Spring 2016 set is Shadows over Innistrad!
Edits for FAQ:
- Here is Mark Rosewater on why we're getting two returns in a row.
Argeaux - I believe you are arguing a point that I am not. - I am ONLY looking to compare the dual color mana fixing in the 2 colors.
Pain lands being able to produce 
and Manlands being able to attack are not a part of what I am debating. - I am not debating 'all possible reasons to play the lands', I am only debating 'which 2 pairs of lands, Pain+Man or Tango+Show, is better for mana fixing of it's colors in current Standard'.
March 21, 2016 9:51 a.m.
To weigh in on this, Rayenous, I think better mana fixing would come from the Tangos and Showlands. The Tangos allow the shows to come in untapped while the manlands are tapped no matter what. Neither tangos nor Showlands will hurt you, so the pain lands are a slightly worse option. I think the archetype comes into play as well...some decks are ok with hurting themselves if they are racing toward the point of I hurt you faster than I hurt me. Some decks don't go off too fast so a tapped land doesn't hurt too much. Personally, the perfect hand for me would include 2 one drops, a 2 drop, a 3 drop, a show, a tango, and a basic. I can hope to draw into either another show or a basic before I am forced to play a tapped tango in that situation.
March 21, 2016 10:03 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #4
Did I miss the discussion on this? I really like it for control.
March 21, 2016 10:14 a.m.
Mass bounce for 
seems to be getting much more prolific. It's an interesting mechanic as it can be devastating, but needs to be played carefully and built/played around.
I like this one in particular as it has some interesting things you can do. By controlling the number of Islands you play you can make this hit what you want and when you want to hit them. (sort of a bounce version Engineered Explosives... tough hitting '<=' instead of '=') - Bouncing all your opponents creatures while only hitting your Reflector Mage or other ETB utility creatures will be very strong... all the while leaving your biggest threat(s) on the battlefield.
The fact that this can be done at instant speed is just amazing... during your opponents combat or end of their turn. Just, WOW!
March 21, 2016 10:24 a.m. Edited.
ducttapedeckbox says... #6
If money wasn't a thing, I would build Esper super friends in Standard in a heartbeat. This, Sorin, the Fact or Fiction.
I know I'll at least test this in Blue Moon. Not sure if it's relevant enough, but it helps remove threats the turn after dropping a Moon.
March 21, 2016 10:34 a.m.
I don't think anyone has noticed this, but there are shadows of a tenctacle-y creature in the waves of Engulf the Shores...
On a another note, I've just realised that Call the Bloodline seems to be more indicative that Sorin has appealed to Olivia to rally the forces of the vampires to defend humanity against the angels (rather than just Nahiri- whom Olivia would have no knowledge of)...
Are we going to be seeing Duel Decks: Angels vs Vampires???
March 21, 2016 10:37 a.m.
hmm is the new lands any good? Can be played untapped turn 1, but are bad topdecks..
March 21, 2016 10:38 a.m.
The showlands are the exact opposite of the battlelands.
March 21, 2016 10:40 a.m.
Looks like a Simic investigate subtheme. Perhaps EMN will be based on not-so-tribal enemy colours?
March 21, 2016 10:47 a.m.
LittleBlueHero says... #13
I love that Humans are getting some love in green, making my Sigarda, Heron's Grace EDH come together nicely.
March 21, 2016 10:53 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #14
Basic lands have been spoiled, in case anyone is interested.
March 21, 2016 10:53 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #15
White weenies is actually decent right now too.
4 thraben Investigator guy
3-4 kytheon
4 thalia's dude
4 dromokas command
1-2 sigarda
March 21, 2016 10:59 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #16
Hey look, another Bob knock off!
Knock off may be the wrong word, but it was definitely inspired by Dark Confidant.
March 21, 2016 11 a.m. Edited.
Weird having green making human soldiers imo, usually a white thing. Cool cards though, nice to see clues are gonna have some cool support cards. Seriously want more wolves and werewolves though, and some variety of moonveil dragon kind of dragon would be amazing even if it was just for the artwork as moonveil is soooo preeetttyyyyy
March 21, 2016 11:02 a.m.
So, it's your opponents choice of letting you have card advantage or taking burn. - Seeing as it's just a bonus on a 3/2 Menace, I think either choice is probably good for you.
March 21, 2016 11:03 a.m.
Eh. Letting the opponent control your draws usually ends poorly. See Lantern Control.
March 21, 2016 11:05 a.m.
You still get a draw... this is just an extra card or burn.... each turn.
March 21, 2016 11:06 a.m. Edited.
Well it's in your upkeep so it would be your draw for the turn. If you're flipping something that's genuinely useful the opponent is just not going to let you have it. Sure the next card could be the same thing but it does mean that the opponent only needs half his removal spells or half his threats because half of your useful stuff is going in the bin.
March 21, 2016 11:07 a.m.
Thoughts on the new duals in EDH? They seem good and not good at the same time.
March 21, 2016 11:09 a.m.
LittleBlueHero says... #25
But thats why its perfect High-Risk, Big Reward is exactly red's kinda game :) so for flavor alone I think the devil is a win.
It could be incredibly competitive too in a deck that WANTS things in its graveyard, it would become a win win in that case.
March 21, 2016 11:16 a.m.
Look at it this way instead...
The top of your library is no longer your 'draw', the second card is. - You will get that card either way.
This is the same as if you were to reveal the bottom card of your library. - It's just an extra card that will either go to hand or burn them... (excluding land, which they can mill for free)
The only way it becomes bad is if you scry to the top something that you want to keep... obviously they will mill it. - But without knowing what is on the top, it's just an extra card with equal chance of being anything in your deck.
March 21, 2016 11:16 a.m.
Offering the opponent the distinct possibility to turn a good draw into a poor draw is not worth it. That's my perspective.
I completely understand that you still get the card second from the top. I get that. I understand how it works. But seriously. Lantern control decks win games with single Lantern of Insights with a single Codex Shredder. All you need to do is turn one potentially good card into one potentially bad card and it's gg.
I understand how the card could be very, very good. But you also need to look at it another way - because it also says to an opponent "pay 5 life to stop the Planar Outburst wiping my board".
It gives your opponent some sway in what happens and this is especially true for decks that run 1-ofs and as the game gets longer when things will be in the GY.
March 21, 2016 11:23 a.m.
I'm seeing a lot of burn flips. I really want to build a super casual Mardu Control build with Sin Prodder, New Sorin, Anguished Unmaking, and an unusually high curve.
March 21, 2016 11:28 a.m.
The new devil might see play in standard but it doesn't make the cut for Modern. Giving your opponents options is rarely a good idea. Especially in modern, the mana curve is so low, that revealing thoughtseize, paths, lightning bolts, etc would be terrible. I love it in standard but outside of that, it's not good.
March 21, 2016 11:30 a.m. Edited.
Is this the first time we've seen human soldier tokens? Usually it's either or...
March 21, 2016 11:30 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #32
Wowza that Sin Prodder is good. Card advantage or burn with evasion and virtually no downside!
Don't forget Den Protector is still alive and kicking in Standard...I feel a fund pairing with those two
March 21, 2016 11:32 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #33
Also, in a delerium deck the Sin Prodder makes it interesting. Say all you need is one more card type and that gets revealed. Now your opponent needs to decide to take the burn and enable delerium OR give you the card. Totally want to brew a Jund delerium deck with the Prodder, Mindwrack Demon, Arlinn Kord, and Den Protector
March 21, 2016 11:36 a.m.
So you play Sin Prodder and you're in the mid game. You have 4 Arlinn in your deck and you really need one to start pumping out tokens.
You flip an Arlinn with Sin Prodder and the opponent sends it to the GY, taking 4. You now have a 3 in X chance to draw another - the card you needed to stabilise.
OR
You don't play Sin Prodder. The card you draw has a 4 in X+1 chance to be Arlinn.
4/X+1 > 3/X
March 21, 2016 11:36 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #35
I'll take the card advantage over quality of draws in most Red decks. Sin Prodder seems like a home run to me and the best card in the set so far. It's essentially Outpost Siege set to Khans on an aggressive body.
March 21, 2016 11:38 a.m.
Alternatively... you need Arlinn... but she's not the next card, she's 4 cards deep. (If you can assume it's the next card, I can assume it's the 4th)
You play Sin Prodder. You get the card you need in 2 turns, while possibly burning your opponent in the mean time.
OR
You don't play Sin Prodder. You die in 3 turns because you didn't stabilize.
In reality, we can't assume it's the 1st or 4th card. - We can only go on what we know. - Each copy is either in an odd number spot, or an even number spot. - If it's an odd number spot, it get's milled... if it's an even number we draw it twice as fast.
There are cases to be said for both outcomes.
March 21, 2016 11:47 a.m.
ChiefBell - Your argument is the same argument as to why Mill is good. And that argument has been disproven countless times over.
March 21, 2016 11:53 a.m.
Stormcaller says... #39
Sounds like Schrdinger's draw to me! You are both right and wrong at the same time. Only the reveal of the card either confirms your point of view or proofs it wrong.
As i see it: red card draw? GIMME!
March 21, 2016 11:57 a.m.
JWiley129 - To be fair... in Mill, they don't (usually) make the decision based on a card they get to see... but, yes, the argument is still very similar.
By his argument, if the card was revealed from the bottom of the library, this would be a good card... even though it's actually the same, so long as the card revealed for possibly mill is random.
March 21, 2016 11:57 a.m.
Lantern doesn't win because it's a mill deck, it wins because it's a prison deck with a mill win-con. You should know the distinction by now.
March 21, 2016 11:57 a.m.
Eh I've seen lantern win without the bridge. I know how it guarantees the win but I also know that it can without the prison portion of the deck.
Still JWiley129 (I am not being antagonistic) could you help me to work out mathematically why this isn't a bad deal. Even if (as Rayenous suggested) it worked on the bottom instead of the top you still have a situation where at one point your chance of drawing an out was 4 cards in X and in the next it's 3 cards in X-1 even though the top card hasn't actually changed - the probability of it being what you want has gone down. Help!
Isn't this like the monty hall problem? All the probabilities stay the same but if you get the option to chance something it's favourable? Even though technically you haven't actually changed the card in question? Like could you legitimately help me look at this quantitatively maybe in another thread. Or in an article. Or something.
March 21, 2016 12:04 p.m.
ChiefBell - Lantern control gets to see your next draw an say 'yes' or 'no' to that particular card... similar so far... but, if it says 'yes', you don't get another card, so you don't have card advantage like this gives.
When it says 'no' it's taking a calculated risk that your next card may be as good or better... in this case, they can't mitigate that risk, you get that card either way.
Lantern control also often gets the ability to mill away multiple cards with multiple copies of Codex Shredder and other mill one effects.
March 21, 2016 12:06 p.m.
Stormcaller says... #44
I personally see the strenght of Sin Prodder in the lategame.
Need the final nail in the coffin to seal the deal? You may draw it or if your opponent lets your discard every card you draw with Sin Prodder he will take the damage to the face. All while you can swing with a creature that has menace.
March 21, 2016 12:09 p.m.
They also don't get smacked in the face for two or three when they deny you a card.
March 21, 2016 12:09 p.m.
I think the point ChiefBell is trying to make is the distinction between what a pro player would do and what a somewhat less experienced player would do.
A "casual" player, would try to avoid burn, where possible. A more experienced player, would try to analyse the value of the card being revealed, and either force a mill, or put it in your hand. For example, if the opponent is land screwed (and has Sin Prodder out), your going to mill any lands you see (and vice versa for land flood). Best part is, you won't get burned for lands.
TL;DR If you see your opponent with a Sin Prodder, your going to force the opponent to mill anything that is potentially harmful to your gameplay, and force them to keep anything that has no impact, or is a detriment to their gameplay.
As a 3 drop as well, it doesn't do enough to justify play outside of Standard/Limited.
March 21, 2016 12:09 p.m.
Stormcaller says... #47
I personally see the strenght of Sin Prodder in the lategame.
Need the final nail in the coffin to seal the deal? You may draw it or if your opponent lets your discard every card you draw with Sin Prodder, he will take the damage to the face. All while you can swing with a creature that has menace.
Anyway value!
March 21, 2016 12:10 p.m.
ChiefBell - Let's compare it to another card that saw play, Sidisi, Brood Tyrant. With Sidisi you automatically mill 3 cards whenever she ETBs or when she attacks. Now with Sidisi you get Zombies whenever you mill one or more creatures. That said, there would be times where you would mill a key card you need, like a Whip of Erebos or a Hero's Downfall, or no creatures. The inexperienced player would go "Well that sucks! I'm never playing Sidisi again!" The experienced player would go "Well that sucks, I built my deck to maximize Sidisi and I whiffed."
We could go into the numbers, but you're looking at a specific instance, of needing to draw Arlinn Kord when you have more cards in your deck that aren't Arlinn instead of Arlinn. Because you have an X-4 out of X chance of revealing any other card aside from Arlinn.
EDIT Incorrectly said that Sidisi, Brood Tyrant didn't see play. Ooops.
March 21, 2016 12:11 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #50
I think there's a difference in style of play between sidisi and mr sin.
Sin affects your draws in s way that allows your opponent to control you. Sidisi affects your draws in a way no one controls.
Decks that want sin don't care what they mill as long as it's damage or can get sone form of value from it in the yard.
Kinda like sidisi in a way but different
ChiefBell says... #1
Having to use your life as a resource is obviously objectively worse than not.....
March 21, 2016 9:46 a.m.