B&R March 9 2020
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 5, 2020, 11:10 a.m. by sergiodelrio
So we're getting changes to at least one format on monday, therefore I ask of you to give me your wildest speculations. What are you hoping for?
My personal wish list includes the unbanning of Mental Misstep in Modern, but I'm aware that almost no one else wants that.
Bring it!
sergiodelrio says... #3
Just had that argument xD Yes, everyone will be able to counter a thoughtseize for 2 life from time to time. Is that a bad thing? No, imho. You won't counter every 1 drop every time. You still trade 1 card for 1 card and lose 2 life.
What its presence would effectively do, again imho, is raise the opportunity cost of 1-drops and increase the value of non-1-drops. In my book that's a good thing.
I'm however more interested in hearing other people's speculation about mondays update!
March 5, 2020 11:29 a.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #5
I actually think Inverter is gonna stick around in pioneer. Now if we're doing a safe prediction. I'm like 90% positive that Dig Through Time will bite za dusto. The card is busted in almost every format (with the POSSIBLE exception of commander). It's also one of the main enablers for the countermagic combo engine of Inverter decks.
Now for a wild ban, I hope Urza will be banned in modern. I'm so damn tired of facing Urza deck after Urza deck.
I know wizards can't control the commander format or its bans, but here's some food for thought. They should ban Craterhoof Behemoth. Also, I don't think Flash will literally ever be banned in commander lol.
March 5, 2020 1:18 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #6
The best counter to Mental Misstep is not by reducing your 1-drop count, it's playing your own playset of Missteps to counter opposing Missteps. This effectively reduces deckbuilding everywhere from 60 cards to 56 cards.
The goal of punishing low-curve decks sounds reasonable enough on the surface. However, Misstep, believe it or not, more often hurts high-curve decks than low-curve ones, because high-curve decks usually lean heavily on low-cost enablers as part of their ramp strategy.
For an example, a deck like Modern Tron is actually heavily reliant on cards like Stirrings and Map to reliably assemble its namesake lands, which Misstep "freely" answers. A deck like Modern Shadow, which may seem like easy pickings for Misstep users, can effortlessly slot in Missteps to counter opposing Missteps, while using the life loss as free advancement of its game plan (or even paying the actual cost in a pinch).
(Yes, yes, fuck Tron. That's a separate discussion though.)
Misstep is just a gross design error, plain and simple, and with any luck will remain banned/restricted in every format until the end of time.
March 5, 2020 1:49 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #7
As for actual ban speculation, I predict:
- The Inverter (and possibly Breach) deck in Pioneer will be hit. What specifically, I don't know, but it will tell us what Wizards envisions Pioneer to be. If they hit Inverter itself, Pioneer is probably "supposed" to be a combo-free format. If they hit something auxiliary like DTT, then they're ok with Inverter and just want to take it down a peg.
- Once Upon a Time needs to bite the dust in Modern. Primetime decks are killing it and even decks like ETron (with no historic usage of green) are running this card, it's just that good.
- More fringe, but Underworld Breach is at some risk in the eternal formats, its early results are already concerning.
There's also about 10 other cards I would personally love to see banned in Modern and Legacy, but I won't waste your time with a long rant on 2019 card design.
March 5, 2020 2:03 p.m.
Misread the comment if only I had za hando to remove my comment
March 5, 2020 2:43 p.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #10
Oi Josuke! I used Za Hando to erase Craterhoof Behemoth! Isn't that wacky?
March 5, 2020 2:46 p.m.
"So we're getting changes to at least one format on monday". Do you have a source on this :)
March 5, 2020 3:38 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #13
Well, if I remember correctly, the new deal is that scheduled B&R announcements have been discontinued. Instead, announcements will be announced in a timely manner if and only if something changes, which is happening on monday. Too lazy to grab a source bc I'm on mobile xD
March 5, 2020 4:20 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #14
smackjack: https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1234538964704428034
March 5, 2020 6:04 p.m.
smackjack the issue with paradox engine is it leads to long turns that dont really serve a purpose
March 5, 2020 6:35 p.m.
If Inverter of Truth gets banned, that's like 60% of the projected meta at SCG Baltimore next weekend. What would end up taking the top spot?
March 5, 2020 8:25 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #17
Deadpoo111, does it look like Dig is a huge issue in Pioneer? Idk what the meta's like where you play but it looks like really not a lot of decks are running it- it's not what I'd call a format-warping card. Craterhoof is an interesting suggestion, though, and it makes a lot of sense to me. After all, it is like 90% of the combos in green that don't include Flash.
xtechnetia I think that breach is fine, but your observation about inverter is very interesting, and I am now riveted to see what WotC does. Once Upon a Time may be an issue as it relates to titan decks, it may even be an issue in Tron, but saying that Tron doesn't historically use green is inaccurate. Ancient Stirrings is a mainstay and Sylvan Scrying and World Breaker each slot into the occasional brew.
I, for one, don't know about any bannings in Pioneer. It's a pretty diverse format. If WotC wants combos out, then they're gonna ban Heliod, Sun-Crowned or Inverter of Truth. If they're trying to increase diversity, Thoughtseize gets the hammer (it's in EVERY black deck- and why shouldn't it be?).
As for modern, if anything, it's either Once Upon a Time or some other piece of amulet titan.
March 6, 2020 10:43 a.m.
xtechnetia says... #18
I specifically meant "ETron", as in Eldrazi Tron (the colorless deck that uses Tron lands but is more reliant on midrange Eldrazi like TKS and Smasher). As of late, there have been ETron builds running Once, some of them adding a Forest or whatever just to possibly have a means to hard cast it.
As for Thoughtseize, banning it will not increase diversity in Pioneer.
Permission is practically garbage tier in Pioneer. Creature removal outside of Fatal Push (which is harder to enable revolt for thanks to lack of fetches) is mediocre at best. Thoughtseize is one of the few high-quality pieces of interaction. Having it be a significant proportion of the metagame means that people will build their decks expecting to face it, meaning they are unlikely to simply attempt the most efficient goldfish that instantly falls apart in the face of hand disruption. It increases overall deck diversity more than anything.
March 6, 2020 11:37 a.m.
Hoping for Once Upon a Time to be gone in Modern. If Ponder and Preordain add an unacceptable level of consistency for too little investment, it's hard to see how a card that digs deeper for less mana can be justified.
March 6, 2020 1:28 p.m.
Well once upon a time isnt that good if your paying mana for it
March 6, 2020 3:22 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #21
A sound argument, xtechnetia. I think that you're right, but as a Johnny it still irks me that there are cards that are simply non-negotiable if you're in the colors.
March 6, 2020 4:16 p.m.
SliverJedi says... #22
heres what i honestly think "should" happen, even though it likely won't.
modern: unban Mox Opal. ban something else from the decks that were problematic, but don't hurt the decks that weren't problematic that also depended on opal. wotc has even said before that they take this "splash damage" into account so their bans harm as few other decks as possible, yet affinity and hardened modular decks took a big hit here.
unban Umezawa's Jitte. modern has powered up quite a bit since kamigawa. we also have way more creature removal now to hit the equipped creature, and artifact removal to hit the jitte. or even cards like Assassin's Trophy that could hit both. the only current top deck i can think of that would even want to run it is bant snowblade. so we'd surely get more creature decks that aimed to use the jitte, resulting in a greater variety of decks.
unban Punishing Fire: to my knowledge, this card ONLY saw play when it was used in Jund in a loop with Liliana of the Veil and Grove of the Burnwillows. highly doubtful that loop would still get used in todays meta when theres so many better removal options Jund can utilize. theres just no need for this to be on the list anymore.
unban Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis AND ban Altar of Dementia. obviously we don't want hogaak decks at full power, but Hogaak himself is a fun card thats still relatively new and wasn't even the biggest problem in his deck. the bigger problem was altar as a sac outlet and secondary win condition.
unban Oko, Thief of Crowns: this is probably the one i'll get the most flak over, but thats ok. i really just don't see Oko himself as a problem. attack it or use a removal spell. honestly, i think the only reason it seemed so strong is because of the sultai shell it was in, which i personally have always thought could be a powerful midrange deck even before Oko. just like any other BGx midrange deck, they'll use discard spells and removal to eliminate your answers for Oko before playing him. at that point though, almost any planeswalker will feel like a huge threat when you've been stripped of answers. personally, i've never really had a problem playing against Oko.
pauper: unban Arcum's Astrolabe. wotc has no excuse for banning this card. they should have known WAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of time that a colorless card that draws cards and fixes mana would be used by everyone and their mother. banning cards based on power level i understand. banning a card because "everyone uses it" is absurd. especially when its a card that can literally slot into and benefit pretty much any deck.
also, i pulled exactly one full playset of Arcum's Astrolabe from my Modern Horizons box and was excited to use them, but then they got banned before i could build a deck to put them in.
pioneer: unban Oath of Nissa. the tutor effect by itself isn't great. its true power imo, comes from turning your lands into rainbow lands, IF you're heavy on planeswalkers. sure mono G used it and mono G was powerful, but i don't think mono G was powerful because of Oath of Nissa. it was because of the explosive mana ramp from mana dorks and the leyline. Oath might've "helped", but im certain the deck would still have strong showings if Oath had been the only banned card from the deck. but since the leyline also got banned, the Oath is overkill. bring Oath back and maybe someone will make a 4c or 5c superfriends deck.
unban Smuggler's Copter: literally the exact same argument here as was previously mentioned for Arcum's Astrolabe. i also own 3 Copter that i have not had a chance to use, because Modern seemed a little too fast for it.
unban Veil of Summer: imo, this is the best way to counter dimir inverter decks. why ban "more" cards to counteract inverter when you can unban them? but even without dimir inverter decks being prevalent, this is a card that should never have been banned in the first place. its a SIDEBOARD card. i literally cannot find any other sideboard card in any banned and restricted list for any format. some people (like a good personal friend of mine) will say " the card is F'd and needs to not exist" (his exact words. pretty sure he said the same of Oko too lol) but i disagree entirely to the point i'm not sure how people can say that. sideboard cards have been silver bullets for a long time, and black/blue are easily the colors green is weakest against anyway. do we ban Shatterstorm in modern where it can easily wreck affinity's whole board and win the game by itself? do we ban Rest in Peace for hosing over graveyards? these are just examples of silver bullets that potentially win the game all by themself by their very nature of shutting down an opponent completely, yet Veil can't do that. its powerful protection for only a single turn. it doesn't remove permanents from the field and it doesn't stick around afterwards like other silver bullets can. and yet somehow veil gets the hammer?
not interested in other formats so i won't speculate. basic theme here is to comb all the ban lists to see what can be taken off. wotc waits far too long to unban things.
March 7, 2020 12:48 a.m.
SliverJedi says... #23
Lame_Duck its justified because even though its still good if you pay the mana for it (not sure why some people say otherwise), in most cases you will have to pay the mana for it. so saying it digs deeper for less mana is disingenuous. theres also the fact it can only hit creatures or lands, whereas the other tutors you listed can get you anything you need while also setting up future draws. gotta pay attention to the small details.
xtechnetia: OuaT is fine. titan decks were plenty alive and well before OuaT, so banning it wouldn't really hurt the deck. instead it'd crippple any other creature deck that wanted to use it.
March 7, 2020 1:01 a.m.
Ban Ouat in modern and DTT in pioneer. Don't unban anything.
ZendikariWol says... #2
I think that unbanning Misstep would be an enormous mistake. Being able to counter Thoughtseize by paying 2 life is bonkers and I think it would enable you to combo off with a degree of consistency that would not be healthy for the format.
March 5, 2020 11:23 a.m.