Damnation reprint
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Aug. 11, 2014, 2:45 p.m. by ChiefBell
Today the list of cards included in from the vault: annihilation was released. You can find it here. Notably absent was Damnation , however within the paragraph explaining the reasoning for Upheaval being included, the author had this to say -
"with From the Vault specifically, I do a lot of long-range planning. I knew that Annihilation was going to be the next year and wanted to represent iconic cards that represented devastation from across Magic's history......Something important to keep in mind: If something is missing from one of these, there's a good reason. It's not that we just completely miss obvious things, but that we have the entire picture of Magic's future to work with and know where something is going to fit better. If you really want something to appear again, stay patient. If it's something that's realistically reprintable, there's a good chance you can expect to see it eventually."
What do you think of this? Has he basically said - "stay patient, Damnation is coming"?
omnipotato says... #2
ThorneSupremicy ChiefBell I was just going by the colors that control decks usually utilize. They generally use blue for counterspells, bouncing, and card draw, and white for board sweepers and win-cons. And they sometimes splash a color like red for burn or alternate win cons. It's hard to imagine a conventional control deck without any blue spells. In Azban colors I can see sweepers like Wrath of God , Damnation and Pernicious Deed , spot removal like Abrupt Decay and Vindicate , and green fatty win-cons, but what I don't see is card draw (green and white don't have any, and black's card draw is usually in exchange for life, which is bad for a control deck against an aggro deck) or counterspells, which you need to be a conventional control deck
August 12, 2014 1:11 p.m.
omnipotato says... #3
Also it seems to me that the color of which the other two are enemy colors is the main one (for example, Azban's main color is white while Jeskai's main color is blue). The main color being blue makes it seem even more like Jeskai colors are gonna be the best for control. What MaRo is talking about in the video that ChiefBell posted when he says "outlast" and "survive" is, I think, that we're gonna see a lot of lifegain and damage prevention in Azban
August 12, 2014 1:22 p.m.
Thanks for the information, guys. It'll definitely be interesting to see how they try to pull control off in this color combination.
August 12, 2014 1:23 p.m.
Green actually has pretty good card draw in magic in general but not in standard. Black's card draw is amazing. Phyrexian Arena and Night's Whisper are stupidly good. Read the Bones is great.
Your point against aggro is true but doesn't normally matter when you have green around. In modern for example a golgari deck will open with Thoughtseize and then go into Dark Confidant and still be fine against aggro as long as they land a Scavenging Ooze for a bit of a boost.
Life loss really isn't a big deal if you have a green creature with a fat ass protecting you.
I want abzan to be control. I would enjoy that, however wizards haven't certainly confirmed this to be the case. Having said this it's worth remembering that there'll be mono coloured cards with control options. There will be mono white exile spells. There will be mono black card draw. If you want to build control but don't want to play abzan I'm sure you'll be fine.
August 12, 2014 1:24 p.m.
omnipotato says... #7
The Rock is a tempo deck. Control decks are way more concerned with their life total since they only play like 3 or 4 creatures, while modern B/G plays more like 15.
August 12, 2014 1:49 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #8
I wanted Junk to be what BUG apparently is gonna be.
Between Warriors' Lesson , Eidolon of Blossoms and Courser of Kruphix I think standard actually has decent draw. More so with Garruk, Caller of Beasts Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Domri Rade ...and to some extent Commune with the Gods and other such searches...
August 12, 2014 1:55 p.m.
omnipotato says... #11
Quote from Reid Duke: "B/G Obliterator Rock is the epitome of midrange. It features a healthy suite of discard spells in conjunction with diverse removal to handle any problem permanents you might encounter. Its creatures are hand-picked to defend you early, but also to close the game quickly once you're ready to do so. The goal in the early game is to play defense against aggressive decks, and to set control and combo decks off-balance with disruption. In either case, once you're ready to turn the corner, it will only take a couple of turns for your giant creatures to finish off the helpless opponent."
It's definitely closer to midrange than control.
August 12, 2014 3:15 p.m.
Well yes.... that's because you've chosen Obliterator rock - not normal rock. Obliterator rock IS closer to midrange but it's the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
August 12, 2014 3:28 p.m.
omnipotato says... #13
From MTGSalvation: "The Rock is a deck which has been less defined by the cards it uses and more by the strategy it employs. In general it is a black-green aggro-control deck which attempts to generate card advantage over longer periods of time and finish the opponent off with a big creature. The cards used for each specific role have varied over the years the deck has existed."
Obliterator Rock is closer to the original Rock deck that was devised by Sol Malka. which used Phyrexian Plaguelord as the main win-con. And the original had 25 creatures.
My point is that B/G hasn't traditionally been the colors of control. Even in modern, a UW control deck looks a lot more like a conventional control deck than the disruptive, spot-removal based, efficient-creature-utilizing Rock deck.
August 12, 2014 3:40 p.m.
So you're going to just glosss over the fact that MTGS calls it a control deck. K cool.
Regardless, whatever it was then, in another format, it's not now. Now it's an aggro control deck - just like MTGS says. You out aggro the control decks, and you control the combo and aggro decks. Aggro-control.
August 12, 2014 3:44 p.m.
The most common version of rock that you'll see in Modern contains virtually no creatures save Tarmogoyf , Dark Confidant and Scavenging Ooze . Those are the most common 3. None of them are midrange. I completely agree that Obliterator rock is midrange - but it's not the usual version. It's irrelevant to point towards how the deck started because thats not how it is now.
August 12, 2014 3:46 p.m.
omnipotato says... #16
That doesn't make it a control deck. That makes it an aggro-control deck. Most aggro control decks are tempo decks, and that's why I called it that initially.
August 12, 2014 3:48 p.m.
omnipotato says... #17
Yeah, the conversation drifted to discussing what kind of deck the current Rock deck is, but my point in the beginning was that throughout the history of MtG, U/W have been much more common as "control" colors than B/G.
August 12, 2014 3:51 p.m.
Certainly more common. Regardless it looks as if the next sweeper will be in black - or at least we have evidence to suggest that black might be heavily involved in the next control archetype. Change is fun.
August 12, 2014 4:24 p.m.
Sheeeit, with Dash Hopes and Damnation , I'm not sure black would even need green or white to form a viable control deck.
August 12, 2014 5:56 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #21
as jr92_2000 touches at they probably won't bring back Damnation because then it's just more Mono-Black in standard for the next year.
also can we bring up how in the article for Developling Annihilation there's talk of Wizards actually moving away from unconditional 4-mana wrath effects; instead looking at conditional sweepers like Anger of the Gods at lower mana costs or higher cost sweepers like Hallowed Burial with upside.
So yeah sounds like Damnation isn't very likely.
tbh I have a theory that Abzan control will be built towards defensive creatures like Nyx-Fleece Ram rather just killing/negating an opponent's threats until you can play an unbeatable win con like Esper or UW control of yester-standard. Abzan seems to value endurance so they could have their strategy built around durable creatures? Eh? Eh?
August 17, 2014 1:09 p.m.
I'd be very happy with a Damnation reprint. Even if mono black were to remain a thing because of it, it would be a different mono black than what we've seen this past year.
That article has me worried. Efficient removal and wraths seem essential.
August 17, 2014 1:46 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird - that's one way of looking at abzan but that strategy absolutely sucks for the most part because any deck with killspells can completely negate a defensive creature based strategy whereas any deck with killspells can't stop a counterspell. So you might well be right, but it would be an awful way to go.
Mono-black won't necessarily want Damnation if it is reprinted. The point of current monoblack is to get down as many creatures that add devotion as possible and therefore Damnation is actually a bad play for them because it takes them longer to get back on track. Also without Desecration Demon and Pack Rat monoblack is getting screwed anyway.
Damnation will be reprinted at some point, that's a certainty. Whether it's next block or not is a big question that needs answering.Wizards might just leave it to a commander set or something so it doesn't screw standard.
August 17, 2014 2 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #24
ChiefBell so the argument is "dies to removal," an argument that doesn't hold any water against any other deck archetype. A deck that's relying on enough removal to kill every blocker you play isn't likely to have enough creatures to reliably pressure you. maybe there's a weird Rakdos Tempo thing that'll beat it, cool, I'm okay with a deck that not invincible to everything. Alternatively a new Sylvan Caryatid -type card or two for the early game.
yes the current devotion-based strategy builds up a boardstate, but it's not farfetched to see the deck become mono-black control if it gets access to four-mana sweeper, as stated the best enabler for disgusting Gary plays are leaving, but we still have Brain Maggot , ThoughtsiezeHero's Downfall Read the Bones and there's 0 doubt in my mind we're getting some kind of Ultimate Price /Doom Blade card with khans
I imagine Damnation will be most likely to return in modern masters 2.
August 17, 2014 3:37 p.m.
You don't want to rely on creatures that sit there and do nothing because they put no pressure on the opponent. Counterspells pressure the opponent by removing their resources. Big defensive creatures just sit there and give your opponent all the time in the world. If they play any removal the board quickly tilts in their favour because you haven't actually been interacting.
August 17, 2014 4:06 p.m.
Me and my buddies at my LGS were all speculating this and came to the same conclusion you did. Damnation is one of those cards everyone wants to be reprinted (like fetches but that's beside the point). If it wasn't reprinted in From the Vault, they have to be planning on printing it in Khans. If not VERY, VERY soon after.
August 17, 2014 8:18 p.m.
I bet it's going to be reprinted in the Mono-Colored Commander decks for 2014.
Rhadamanthus says... #1
Wait for FTV: Stealth Curse Words
Damnation
Assassinate
Countryside Crusher
etc.
August 12, 2014 12:52 p.m.