Duskmourn
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 28, 2024, 2:14 p.m. by Coward_Token
My takes Show
Coward_Token says... #3
Gleeock @ 1): With the horror genre in mind, I actually think it was kind of a mistake to post the Planeswalker's Guide this early? I feel that the flavor of previed cards should have been allowed gradually imply the world building first, before having an entire article that explicitly explains how the plane works.
June 28, 2024 7:17 p.m.
I would have liked it more if the entire house was "inside" and there wasn't any "outside" environment, even if they're technically "rooms". I did expect that the plane is artificial, created by someone from another plane, and that... kind of works? But accidentally? The monsters are cool, and Our Heroes will hopefully get some character depth and development--most of them are pretty undefined right now.
June 28, 2024 8:22 p.m.
There looks like there is a Bloodbraid or post-apocalyptic character that is actually relishing the zombie-slaying atmosphere :) ... So maybe a worthwhile Gruul addition?!
Yeah, the world-building would have benefited more from slow-trickle. But, I was genuinely surprised with how robust some of the ideas were on the guide
June 28, 2024 9:03 p.m.
Ugh. There are TV's and headphones in Magic now. I think I'll avoid most of the set.
June 29, 2024 12:03 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #7
Abaques: to be fair on the latter note, Towashi Songshaper was already a thing.
But I hear you.
June 29, 2024 12:43 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #8
"Though razorkin don't function as a cohesive group, most of them will listen to the directives of the Lord of Pain, who claims to be the first-ever razorkin. He's only ever seen as a figure on screens throughout the House."
Yeah I don't see why he couldn't just appear in mirrors or something.
June 29, 2024 1:47 a.m.
Coward_Token Good deep cut there! To be honest, while I enjoyed a lot of the cards mechanically, I really didn't like the cyberpunk flavor of Neon Dynasty. I don't use some of the cards from that set because of how they feel tonally. Things do seem to be considerably worse in Duskmourn (at least from the early spoilers) than in Neon Dynasty or New Capenna though.
Honestly Wizard's story/flavor design teams have been failing pretty bad lately. They're trying to make Magic everything, but it's really just turning it into a sloppy mess of nothing that matters.
June 29, 2024 10:09 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #10
I was sort of hoping there might be some stuff for my haunted house deck, but maybe it’ll be a little too on-the-nose... or way-off-the-nose? Just waiting for some sort of “Soaking Wet Climbs Out Of Your TV” planeswalker. And I second what Abaques has said: the people making this set either don’t know or are choosing to remove themselves from what I have considered magic. Having said that: in the back of my mind I’ve known that there are only so many sets one can make in the genre / flavor that I accept as “magic themed”... it can’t go on forever. Thus my “content old widower” comments in other threads; magic is different now and that’s okay. I’ve still got all my cards and can still play when I want. I just probably won’t be buying a box of packs ever again.
June 29, 2024 10:22 a.m.
For the people who think that M:tG should focus more on low fantasy, high fantasy, epic fantasy, or other spots on the Bronze Age-medieval fantasy timeline, what further stories/settings would you like to see in your preferred genre(s)?
M:tG definitely established itself as a fantasy-centric game, but I like the experimentation with different time periods and settings. I'm not going to go in on all of them, and I've gone off several times about how much real-world Earth influence there is, but I like that they're trying new things.
To me, it's not particularly jarring that some planes have discovered that electricity can be used as a nonmagical source of power, or a mixture of sulfur + charcoal + saltpeter goes bang, or whatever. It's actually more unrealistic in my eyes that every plane caps out at some flavor of swords and castles and decides that's a good place to stop. We discovered how chemistry, and electromagnetism, and other natural properties work in our more or less nonmagical world, so why not other places? Not saying I'm objectively right, but that's what makes sense to me, and I'd like to hear a little more from the other side.
June 29, 2024 11:24 a.m.
Flavorwise, since this world is post-apocalyptic... I don't mind old screens & such as long as most the characters don't know the nuts-&-bolts behind them. Sortof like if you had a Shannara character's description of those age-old relics, where you wouldn't totally know by description that a character was describing a "TV" or "monitor" if they were just describing more faces on the "buzz mirrors" again. I had a tough time understanding that the key to that oracle in those books was talking about a disc for a computer. Or like in Adventure Time... You are still very much High Fantasy (with a smattering of Sci-Fi) but since lollypop & gumdrops mutants inherit the Earth, they never even seem to notice the old nuke-shell in the stump :) ... Nor would they have any fathoming on describing what they are... Again, I do dislike the crappy ghostbusteresque goofball guns though. To me the monitors are just another Magic scrying orb when seen through ignorant eyes.
June 29, 2024 8:31 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #13
legendofa & Gleeock: See, it's totally fair to say that it's believable that some plane in the vast multiverse has come up with modern technology. (I prefer "believable" over “realistic” to avoid setting of annoyingly literal people. (You know who you are.)) For me, the problem is aesthetic. It’s just hard to not make it clash with the rest of MtG:s look. Doylism over Watsonianism, so to speak. Incidentally, while I think most of the human gun cards from Portal: Second Age ook goofy (e.g. Alaborn Cavalier) l, I dislike Ixalan insisting on using hand-held crossbows instead of pistols (e.g. Storm Fleet Swashbuckler). Also, I’m fine with e.g. Kaladesh.
For new fantasy settings, I’d like to see more planes based on non-Western cultures and mythologies.
June 30, 2024 11:01 a.m.
Yeah, it is funny how different people can be on the issue of aesthetics. I'm not a fan of filigree, for example... So Kaladesh. From an artistic standpoint (not from a craft standpoint) I feel like concentric organic lines starts to be a little lazy + sloppy. On that line, I like my "guns" to not have bubbling potions, tubes, & flimsy filigree throughout.
Then again, I like the stark contrast between artistic construction & industrialist
June 30, 2024 3:12 p.m.
You could imagine how mind-bending those static-ghosts would be from the Watsonian perspective :) ... No frame of reference
June 30, 2024 4:28 p.m.
I also think if you show some unexpected fears for various characters & make them very vulnerable you can start to have some good character development.
Beyond that I really want to politic lifegain players hard with one of those possible cards. I'm not sure how much I can truly talk about unofficial spoilers.. So I try to avoid names & whatnot. But I'm sure you know the one... That one where you can haste-attack into another player's blocker & then shut off lifegain for that player :) My goodness, looks like you have no more Heliod + Walking Ballista option to combo off with.
June 30, 2024 4:33 p.m.
... Not even for THAT player, I think you can just choose the player
June 30, 2024 4:34 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #18
No need to be coy, Screaming Nemesis was officially previewed as part of the First Look article:
June 30, 2024 4:47 p.m.
Ah! Haha. Well that card is going to make my Gameclock Groupslug ways so much more vexing.
June 30, 2024 5:32 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
WotC is changing the rules of archenemy format, for this set, which is interesting, so how will that affect commander/EDH?
July 2, 2024 8:50 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #21
Coward_Token, why is that ability still in red, when it should be black? And why has WotC still not made a way to cure a player of that affliction? Is not a single targeting rather extreme to not be able to gain life for the rest of the game?
July 2, 2024 8:52 p.m.
wallisface says... #22
DemonDragonJ that ability has always been very red, red both wants and need these kinds of effects.
Personally the card reads as being very weak to me. Sure, the effect lasts until end of game, but lifegain is a generally terrible strategy/ability anyway - and 3 mana is a lot to spend on a card that still needs a way to trigger its effect. It’s too high a mana cost for aggro/burn decks to ever justify, for example.
July 2, 2024 9:28 p.m.
There are ways to stop a player from being targeted. You also need to trigger it, which is not a guarantee. Also, hilarious if someone uses a redirect effect
July 2, 2024 9:58 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #24
wallisface, I believe that red should have "damage cannot be prevented," while black should have "players cannot gain life," because red never cares about life, otherwise, while black does, and red cares about damage, very much.
July 2, 2024 10:01 p.m.
wallisface says... #25
DemonDragonJ it can definitely been interpreted as a bit of a grey-area, though historically red has always had both "damage cannot be prevented" and "players cannot gain life" effects, while black has the effect of _ "if a player would gain life, they lose that much instead"_.
From a gameplay perspective, black has almost no need for preventing lifegain as it typically wins on boardstate (which explains why these decks typically don’t play any such effects), whereas red normally wins by rapidly depleting its own resources, so needs effects like this to combat counterplay (which explains why we see a bunch of lifegain prevention being competively played in such decks - examples being Skullcrack and Roiling Vortex).
July 2, 2024 11:32 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #26
wallisface, I suppose that that makes sense, but I still would like to see anti-lifegain effects in black, more often.
July 3, 2024 8:36 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #27
I noticed that doomsday excruciator exiles cards face down, which is interesting, since cards are normally exiled face up, and they are exiled face down only when there is some way to interact with them, later, yet the excruciator does not have any such ability, so why does it exile the cards face down?
July 6, 2024 12:40 a.m.
wallisface says... #28
DemonDragonJ presumably for two reasons:
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To stop sweaty players looking through the entirety of their exiled cards to figure out what cards remain in their deck, which is just very time-wasty.
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To stop sweaty players looking through the entirety of their opponents exiled cards, which will give them a good idea of what threats might still remain in the opponents deck, but also be very time-wasty.
July 6, 2024 12:56 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #29
wallisface, but why would WotC change precedent, now, after 31 years? Is there any good reason to do that?
July 6, 2024 9:13 a.m.
Possibly future design space stuff. Could be plans coming up to design based around "face-up" exile vs "face-down" exile... Or their could be sweatiness
July 6, 2024 9:20 a.m.
wallisface says... #31
DemonDragonJ there’s always precedent to change things where they could be cleaner
July 6, 2024 6:30 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #32
Gleeock, why would WotC care about that? That is an issue with the players, not the game, itself.
wallisface, I agree with that, but I also very much believe that if something is not broken, it does not need to be fixed.
July 6, 2024 6:50 p.m.
wallisface says... #33
DemonDragonJ games could very easily go to "time" because players are too busy riffling through exile piles. It's certainly a problem - just not a big one. It's simply the case that Wotc probably doesn't want this effect giving out a bunch of free information at the cost of being potentially a bit time-consuming
July 6, 2024 7:01 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #34
wallisface, yes, that makes sense, but why would WotC have waited for so long to make such a change?
July 6, 2024 7:08 p.m.
wallisface says... #35
DemonDragonJ what's the most recent card that would require it? It's worth noting that this card in particular can create a lot more time-wasting, as it's possible to work out what the remaining 6 cards are in your own deck, as well as infer the remaining cards in your opponents deck/hand - which would be take a significant amount of time to do and be competitively relevant... I haven't seen other cards tick both those boxes.
July 6, 2024 7:11 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #36
wallisface, I suppose that that makes sense, but I really hope that WotC has a good reason for those cards being exiled face down, apart from players taking time to look at them.
July 6, 2024 7:12 p.m.
wallisface says... #37
DemonDragonJ that is a good reason though - in a 50 minute game this could easily consume 5-10 minutes per game by itself.
Try it yourself, get 2 decks, one where you know the decklist and one where you don't. Remove 6 cards at random from the one you know and 9-10 from the one you don't (because the opponent presumably has a hand). Then work out as fast as you can what cards are missing from both decks. And keep in mind both players are incentivized to do this.
July 6, 2024 7:16 p.m.
Future design space is not player-behavior driven however. I put the "sweatiness" comment in as a tongue and cheek afterthought comment. But, there would be some major design space implications to more cards specifying "face down" exile. Spontenaety and more unknowns can certainly be introduced in a game that can often get too stale with too many known values. Consider if future cards play a random card out of face down piles for target opponent, it has a little fun factor to not know what is in an exile pile that you choose.
July 6, 2024 9:20 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #39
My takes so far:
I am so very not sure about the "Jumping on the Stranger Things" bandwagon feel. I could do without it.
I can always use more enchantments.
I abhor the design of Screaming Nemesis with every fiber of my being. I hate more permanent game state changes that I cannot interact with that need to be tracked.
July 9, 2024 9:42 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #40
Late realization but Bello, Bard of the Brambles will probably work well with Impending creatures, since I imagine a lot of them will have an MV over 4.
You can do stuff like
T3 Bello
T4 Overlord of the Hauntwoods, make a land on ETB, then make another on attack.
Not quite like a three-mana Explosive Vegetation since you can't cast it on-curve, but still pretty good.
August 27, 2024 12:45 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #41
Like Classes, Rooms gives white some pseudo-card advantage. Naming the different parts "doors" is a bit confusing though.
Kaito: Sorry, I haven't been paying attention, but are there any other Ninjas in the set or is Kaito just pumping himself? Obviously good with Yuriko.
Zimone: Mirror Box + land flickering and you can have multiple Primos
Razorkin Needlehead: glad mono-red is getting more Underworld Dreams effects
Aminatou: Kinda wish the cost reduction was greater so that it would feel more exciting, but that's just my pushing ass whining. Drawing lands is going to feel kinda bad, but surveil 2 helps. Get a flash enabler so that you can miracle on other people's turns.
Demonic Counsel: Disproportionaly disappointed that it's not flavored as a rival to Valgavoth tempting a mortal
Unwanted Remake: Fixed Pongify, seems fair for the color
September 1, 2024 3:38 a.m.
I hate the aesthetics of the set so far. None of it feels like Magic to me.
More Bloomburrow please.
September 2, 2024 10:38 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #44
Correction: Miracle already ignores timing restrictions so you don't need flash
September 2, 2024 12:21 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #45
So looking at more spoilers...I am uninspired. The cards are a unique mix of an unappealing plane, overcomplicated mechanics, and retread design.
Luckily Bloomburrow will keep me entertained for the rest of the year. I have like 3 decks I'm working on for that set plus I'm assisting friends with others. I haven't built so many decks featuring legends for a single set ever.
I think the only card I'm thinking of buying a copy of so far is Valgavoth's Lair for my enchantress deck.
September 2, 2024 7:25 p.m. Edited.
Coward_Token says... #46
Abaques: I understand you're being hyperbolic (the art for Valgavoth's commamnder card could be included in pretty much any set), but how do you feel about Innistrad?
(But yeah, can't say I'm a fan of Zombie sweatbands either)
September 3, 2024 1:42 a.m.
Coward_Token Yes, some of the art is generic enough, but way too much of it is pulled from Stranger things or 80's horror movies. The aesthetic as a whole just doesn't feel like Magic. It's like the bad art direction from Murders at Karlov Manor and Thunderjunction got taken to another level. In particular, I greatly dislike the inclusion of TV's and headphones and other detritus from the modern world. For the record, I greatly dislike aspects of Neon Dynasty and New Capenna as well, but I think it's worse with Duskmourn.
And it's not an issue with horror as well. Innistrad is a great plane with generally good art as a rule.
I think Wizards is making a mistake in going down the route of diving hard into tropes. A trope can be an effective way to build a plane (see Innistrad and Bloomburrow for examples of successful execution) but if executed badly (see MKM and Thunderjunction for examples) it just comes off as tacky and offputting.
Mechanically I think Rooms are potentially interesting but I haven't seen anything else that looks all that compelling to me.
September 3, 2024 11:46 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #48
Disappointed impending is only on the Overlords, making a mechanic for just five cards feels like a waste and just unnecessary complexity
Actually kind of disappointed the art for Valgavoth, Terror Eater was used for the main villain. I think it would have been cooler for a high-costed non-legendary, like the Overlords. The art is fantastic, but I would have liked the feeling better of it being a major threat that you have to get past, but even then it would have been far from the end of things.
Kinda want to brew Rakdos!Valgavoth, but I'm gonna wait for the precon to be spoiled first.
Stay Hidden, Stay Silent: I like the mechanical realization of the flavor, where the victim ultimately gets caught by the monster in the end
The white monsters, like Patched Plaything, don't really feel apropriate for the color's philosophy
Acrobatic Cheerleader: Yeah I kinda hate this. The flippant attitude in the flavor text doesn't really fit the horror either. (Tyvar enjoying things because he's an interplanar murder hobo is the exception that proves the rule.)
September 3, 2024 12:20 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #49
Inquisitive Glimmer: kinda dislike that enchantments are moving from green to blue
Altanak, Thrice Called + Say Its Name: Nice to see that they're still making legends for 60-card formats. Kinda funny that if you get lucky with the milling from Say Its Name, you could have a 9/9 for .
Niko, Light of Hope: Flickering or copying Niko can get you extra Shards. Populate and such works too. Finally, in 60-card formats you can just cast extra Nikos to get the ETB, even if they'll die to the legend rule.
Meathook Massacre II + Unwanted Remake: Yeah I kinda hate these names too. At least the art and mechanics are good.
Central Elevator // Promising Stairs: kinda wish this was white sincet Rooms are enchantments but w/e. Sadly, you can't animate this and then win with Spy Kit ;_;
September 3, 2024 5:48 p.m.
Would the 13-lands (does anyone have a better name?) make a difference in Death's Shadow decks? The fetch + shock pattern works well, and Death's Shadow decks don't exactly have huge mana requirements. So probably not.
Gleeock says... #2
1) Pretty surprised by how fleshed out some plane-specific creatures are, same with the "world"-building here.... Though I think the "world" here is a the bloated all-consuming consciousness of a demon at its' pinnacle.
2) -chantments look to be getting some oomph! so far, love it. Maybe red in general.
3) We might see some much needed creativity for . Hopefully, beyond just sac-synergy... where it is just an inferior Jund. I honestly was hoping this Big Baddie would be a high-powered DEVIL instead of a demon for once.. I mean he sounds pretty damn chaotic especially with all the form-molting, butterfly/moth imagery... It is like the writers took some of my earlier ideas for a polymorph Devil-lord... then decided to make him a demon :)
4) Didn't think I would be this high on this plane.. So far
5) I am not as "hyped" by some of the modern aesthetic either... moreso the stupid-looking gun-things some survivors have.
6) Perfect place for more Scooby-Doo characters to get stuck
June 28, 2024 2:56 p.m.