Flame-Wreathed Pheonix
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Jan. 14, 2014, 9:27 p.m. by abenz419
So what does everyone think about this new toy in red. Is it going to be too easy to play around it with kill spells and it's tribute or is this thing gonna wreck faces. I haven't decided yet what I think about it. I mean, at first, I was like this thing is awesome, but then I started thinking that with it's tribute, if you already have an answer to it then you just pay the tribute so it doesn't return to hand when you kill it. Or if you think you can drawn an answer in the next turn or two then you can always pay the tribute to prevent the haste attack. Similarly if you have a 4/4 flyer or bigger then you can not pay the tribute because you can block and let them recast it till you get an answer for it. Then again those plans can easily backfire and this thing could be a real huge threat, so I'm kinda on the fence about it. What about everyone else??
Tribute is definitely like that in 1-on-1 games. If I cast Flame-Wreathed Phoenix then you get to choose what mode I get, and you highlighted the argument for both sides already. If you have a flying 4/4, you just don't pay the tribute. If you have a kill spell in hand, pay the tribute.
I think it will see play in Mono-red, but probably not much else. And like with most mythics, it's a limited bomb.
January 14, 2014 9:33 p.m.
With a format with Desecration Demon in it and with the dual lands that we have, I find it rather lack luster. :/
January 14, 2014 9:36 p.m.
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Not game-breaking, but definitely decent. i'd play it
January 14, 2014 9:43 p.m.
yeah but the mana fixing that we have available is gonna change in what like 6 months or so. So, unless there are new dual lands in m15 or the next block mono colored decks will be even bigger. I guess, i'm not just asking about the immediate future of it right after it's release but more about how effective it can be. I mean it's either a Chandra's Phoenix that for 1 extra colorless mana returns back to your hand automatically instead of requiring enabling cards in the deck as well or it's a beastly 5/5 flyer. I just don't know about the tribute ability yet, because you give your opponent the choice which means they're always gonna choose what's best for them. That doesn't always mean that what is best at the time will work out, but it's always gonna come in as whatever is the best option for them.
January 14, 2014 9:46 p.m.
RedSoxFanKy - what else would it be? Seems pretty mythic to me.
January 14, 2014 9:56 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #11
I like this guy. I was initially hesitant but the thing is cards like Polukranos, World Eater have been seeing play despite the argument of "does nothing if they have removal" being just as applicable to them, too, and unlike our hydra friend, this phoenix can't be chumped by a Boros Elite .
Obviously any creature without hexproof and/or indestructible and no ETB effect is a wasted play if your opponent has a removal spell in hand, but in reality your opponent will not always have all the answers. Sure they get to pick the worst mode but for mana cost alone both forms are pretty scary: a 4 turn aerial clock or a 6 turn aerial clock that automatically comes back if you kill it.
January 14, 2014 10:02 p.m.
yeah that's why I'm on the fence about it. I'm wondering how big of an effect is your opponent choosing the best mode for them gonna have. Because if every other time you play it you find yourself thinking that was a wasted turn because your opponent had the choice and the answer then it's not gonna see as much play as it initially appears it would. But if you find that the tribute ability isn't much of a hindrance then it might see even more play than first thought.
January 14, 2014 10:13 p.m.
Some of the tributes are just bonkers, like the tribute for Nessian Wilds Ravager. Either it's a 6 drop 12/12 or it's a 6 drop 6/6 that fights something they have. And Pharagax Giant either smacks them for 5 right out or becomes a 5/5. The Giant is pretty good for a common.
January 14, 2014 10:35 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #14
That Giant will be a great common Limited pick.
January 14, 2014 10:37 p.m.
Not a fan. Tribute is a pretty poor mechanic from a competitive constructed stand point, and I'm not terribly pleased that this is taking up one of the limited mythic slots in a small set. But I can understand that tribute isn't for the spiky players. Heh, call me when they reprint Thundermaw Hellkite .
January 14, 2014 11:39 p.m.
Stormbreath and dessi will eat this alive. Heck I've seen cloudfin raptors bigger then this,thing.
January 14, 2014 11:46 p.m.
I think whether the tribute is paid or not, this is a fine card (not sure it needs to be mythic - it's not that cool..): 3/3 flying haste or 5/5 flyer for 4 mana is pretty efficient.
Not overpowered, but a huge bomb in Limited.
Not super-amazing, but I like it.
January 15, 2014 1:28 p.m.
Dalektable says... #18
It's okay, that's it. It's not great, it's not terrible, it's just okay. It will probably see some play.
January 15, 2014 3:03 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #19
I think this card is great. First card I pre-ordered. Fits great in G/R Monsters. A turn 3 5/5 flyer must be dealt with, if they leave it with haste I'll beat face until they return it to my hand. Please block with your Desecration Demon so I can bloodrush and kill your demon and trample over it. If it's not the turn after you tapped out to play your demon and you are holding removal thanks for letting my Stormbreath Dragon or Polukranos, World Eater through and eat this Plummet . People are seriously underrating this guy.
T2 Sylvan Caryatid or Fanatic of Xenagos
T3 Phoenix (assume tribute is paid because that seems to be considered the worse of the 2 options by most)
T4 Swing 5/5 Phoenix and bloodrush Ghor-Clan Rampager and cast Blood = 18 damage and gg
It will essentially function as Polukranos, World Eater 5-8 with evasion. This is not Christmas land either, just one of the many ways the deck plays out.
January 15, 2014 3:10 p.m.
I honestly think it will be a great creature, just not quite mythic quality. I think it's best AGAINST aggro than anything else. Like, maybe sideboard in MRD/RDW/RG for the mirror match.
January 15, 2014 7:08 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #21
I really like this dude, and he's cheap right now due to the anti-hype. People are dismissive of tribute because it's a downside, and yet they are perfectly happy with shelling out 10 bucks a piece for Desecration Demon a card that was a junk rare....for having a downside.
And the downside for this card, isn't a downside. Saying "your opponent gets to choose so it's bad" only applies when there's something that they can do about it, what if they don't have removal. Both version of this card is gonna be a pain for your opponent, and so what if they do decide to Doomblade it. Just means they won't have that removal to stop Stormbreath Dragon next turn.
January 28, 2014 9:44 a.m.
Tradeylouish says... #22
That's not entirely true. Giving an opponent a choice is always bad, regardless of whether they have removal or not. This is because a smart opponent will always assess the game state and determine which option is worse for you. Often, you won't quite get what you need. It's true that when both options are strong, it's less of a downside, but it's still undoubtedly a downside. I like to think of it this way: 2RR for a 5/5 flying would be strictly better than this card. 2RR for a 3/3 flying haste, when it dies return it to hand would also be strictly better than this card.
January 28, 2014 3:17 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #23
I've been testing this card out and i must say the tribute hasn't hurt it in my eyes. I've even tried to make the decision as though I'm a spectator and can see both hands during my testing, it's never easy and sometimes the deck playing it benefits equally either way. Many times it comes down after a Domri Rade , tribute it and the opponent loses a creature to a fight. Tribute it, kill it next turn, and a better monster replaces it. Leave it as hasty, evasive, reusable 3/3 beater? Thanks for the card advantage,
While removing the option would help with consistency I think this one places an immense amount of pressure on the opponent either way and leaves them feeling less confident as most times either option is bad for them.
January 28, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #24
You are of course entitled to an opinion but you are wrong. Sorry.
"Giving an opponent a choice is always bad"
Not true, if you opponent's choice is between a punch in the jaw and a punch in the nose, then both of those option are bad for your opponent and neither are bad for you. To use less metaphors, if you opponent can't deal with either a 5/5 flyer or a 3/3 haste flyer that can never die then they are up shit creek without a paddle from the moment you play the card. In that situation (which isn't hard to come by) giving your opponent a choice doesn't hurt you at all, if anything it makes his game more difficult as he has to make decisions which could ruin his game. You are just sitting there waiting to hear his verdict whilst he desperately tries to figure out the likelyhood of being able to deal with the creature in each state at a later turn and which... Judge is asking him to make a decision.
It can be a bad mechanic, when your opponent has removal or a fatter flyer, thus making the decision one sided and entirely in your opponents favour. But in those cases as with split cards, you can adjust by simply reading the card in regards to the boardstate. If you know what your opponent will choose, then there is no choice.
Remember almost every card has the same "downsides", hence the birth of the "dies by removal argument".
Of course this card would be better if the player could choose what effect occurs, it would also be broken.
January 28, 2014 5:34 p.m.
"Not true, if you opponent's choice is between a punch in the jaw and a punch in the nose, then both of those option are bad for your opponent and neither are bad for you."
Schuesseled Here's the problem I have with this analogy though. It's a hyper-inflated way to look at the two outcomes. Yes, Flame-Wreathed Pheonix will always resolve as one of two decently costed creatures, but one of those modes will always be better for me as your opponent. There is no rock and a hard place here, I look at my hand and think about the cards in my deck and I choose whatever option is better for me. Its no different than any other creature, but now I get an option that I wouldn't normally have. It's not specifically a matter of them having a bigger flyer, removal, etc. It's that they get too choose.
I saw this thought experiment brought up elsewhere
Lightning Recall
R - Instant
Deal 3 damage to target creature or player; or target player draws 3 cards. Your opponent choose which effect resolves.
This card is worse than Lightning Bolt and Ancestral Recall . Despite these 2 effects being some of the most efficient and power in Magic's history, you will inevitably loose games because of it. Opponent at 3 life and you die on their next attack? Too bad you didn't have Lightning Bolt . Opponent is at a healthy life-total and you need to get back in the game, well to bad you only have Lightning Bolt .
January 28, 2014 6:05 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #26
That example is way off Slycne and useless in evaluating this card. Those 2 choices are completely different.
A better example is:
Lightning Tribute
R - Instant
As Lightning Tribute is cast target opponent chooses one of the the following:
Deal 3 damage to target creature or player; or at the beginning of your next upkeep deal 5 damage to target player or creature.
Wording is a little off but you get the picture. Now there will be situations where this card is worthless. i.e.: Opponent is at 3 or less life and an win the game on his/her next turn. In almost all cases though it is a win-win for the caster.
January 28, 2014 6:24 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #27
That is an example of a bad choice card I agree. Browbeat on the other hand is a good card, and if it was in standard it would see play because it is a good card. There is no good option for your opponent unless he has something to interfere with it. Yes you shouldn't use this card to finish off an opponent because that won't happen, but seeing as you already know that, where is the problem?
Similary this phoenix is a good card, a 5/5 flyer for 4 is great, and a 3/3 haste flyer that cannot die for 4 is also a fantastic power card to have in your deck. When you cast it you either have to A) not care which effect takes place or B) Know the outcome already. This way there is no gamble, there's no risk, there's no smirking opponent letting you draw three cards and proceeding to win the game. (I should take the time to point out that letting a burn deck draw three cards whilst you are on 3 life is a bigger gamble than casting lightning recall.
I think what people are forgetting here is that you don't have to cast a card just because it's in your hand. Is Supreme Verdict a bad card because your opponent might have neglected to play any creatures. Hell no, that be crazy talk.
January 28, 2014 6:31 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 I'll agree it was a hyperbolic example, but that was the point. You can staple two of the best effects in magic together and it makes the card worse when your opponent has the option. I do however agree that the closer the two effects are together the better the card is overall. Fanatic of Xenagos is perhaps the most playable of the tribute cards currently.
Schuesseled Perhaps there's another way I can put it. I've seen the arguments on both sides, and I think it ultimately comes down to where your viewpoint is focused: the caster or the opponent. The for crowd seems to come from the side of the caster: 5/5 flyer for 4 is good and 3/3 returning haste flyer for 4 is also good, so this card only has only upsides. The against crowd is seeing it from the opponents point of you, even if both tribute and non-tribute are good for the caster, one of those two sides is always going to better for your opponent.
Also for the record, Browbeat is a bad card. A simple Top8 search for Browbeat returns 14 results, Lava Spike by comparison is 256. I made sure to avoid something with cross over like Lightning Bolt , but even in the most dedicated of burn decks that want to run a card like Lava Spike , Browbeat doesn't see play. Are there games where the chose doesn't ultimately effect the outcome, sure, but the reverse is also true.
Even when the card gives you two desirable effects, giving your opponent the choose makes it worse. Your giving your opponent the option to interact with your cards in a way they couldn't normally.
Though at this point I don't think either side is going to be overly convinced, but I do still think it's an interesting discussion.
January 28, 2014 7:47 p.m.
@Slycne I understand where both sides are coming from, and as far as tribute goes, it really depends on the card. Flame-Wreathed Phoenix I think is right in the middle, which is why I think it makes for such interesting discussion as long as people can be open minded and don't turn it into an argument. I personally am on the fence about this card, but one thing I did think of when reading some of the discussion you were having with Schuesseled is that if I had a 5/5 flyer for 4, then I'm probably gonna play it on turn 4, especially in an aggro deck, regardless. So even though you have the choice, I'm either gonna get a 3/3 flyer that I can attack with that turn, or your gonna give me a 5/5. Which most likely means you have some sort of answer to it, this is inside information that I wouldn't get if I was just playing a regular 5/5 flyer on turn 4. Then based on what I've seen or know about the deck my opponent is playing, I can try to use that information to help me play my remaining cards. For example, if i'm playing against something like green devotion or gruul monsters, if you pay the tribute then I can expect the answer to be something like a creature with reach, and can adjust accordingly. Or, against mono black, I can expect the answer to most likely be removal, though it could be a demon. But now I at least have information about whats in their hand that I wouldn't have had before. It can be limited information at times, but that probably depends on how well you know the decks your playing against. I'm still on the fence about it, but this was just something I thought of that I hadn't seen mentioned before, it kind of makes you rethink how much of a disadvantage your really getting. Other cards i'm sure the disadvantages are more obvious, but this one is a really close call as to how effective it can be.
January 28, 2014 8:12 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #30
@ Slycne
I am of course willing to see the other side's views as well.
But:
"one of those two sides is always going to better for your opponent"
Is it?
If you can't remove it then you have to think about your deck and gamble whether or not you'll be able to deal with it's 5 body by drawing what you need before it kills you, or let it come in as a 3/3 and any removal you draw is pointless but gives you more time to race against your opponent. Neither of these options scream "choose me".
I can see how one of the sides might be better for your opponent, but some of the time they'll be choosing which is the least worst.
January 28, 2014 9:02 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #31
abenz419 makes a good point about reading the opponent by his choice.
In my G/R Monster deck I play it turn 3 usually. Most of the time it gets tributed and becomes a flying Polukranos, World Eater that I can play multiple copies of. Surprisingly he has outperformed Xenagos, God of Revels so far.
January 28, 2014 9:41 p.m.
abenz419 Hmm, the information aspect is not something I'd considered. I guess the remaining point of contention is whether giving up Flame-Wreathed Phoenix as the worse option is worth that information. As seen below, there are some pretty strong signals to pick up certainly.
Schuesseled Oh yes, there's always going to be a better option based on board state, life totals, cards in hand, decks, etc.
Just for example, let's say your my opponent and I'm playing my UW Control list. You cast Flame-Wreathed Phoenix , and I look down at my hand and see...
Last Breath - well if I have a Jace, Architect of Thought on the field that's ticked up I'll let you have the 3/3 so when it attacks it becomes a 2/3 and I can exile it.
Supreme Verdict - you get a 5/5 that I'll blow up next turn.
Archangel of Thune - maybe it's game 2 and I have this on the field. The 3/3 could chump it forever, but it'd drag this game long where my deck is likely better. The 5/5 can attack through, but I win the race even without considering Archangel of Thune growing.
Detention Sphere - a 5/5 to persevere my life total.
Azorius Charm
- if I have a counter in hand, but not the mana for it. I might let you have the 3/3 so I can time walk it and then counter it later. Maybe I don't have the counter and give you the 5/5 to slow you down more when I charm it next turn.
Stone Nothing - well a 5/5 is going to kill me from 20 in 5 turns. A 3/3 that I'd need specific cards to deal with will do it in 7. Depending on what cards have already been used and how I've contructed/sideboard I'd be able to mull out a decision.
If Flame-Wreathed Phoenix was just a 5/5 or just a 3/3 there would be times when those creatures don't line up to my answers, but because I have the choice I can ensure it always does. So whether it's Doom Blade , Arbor Colossus , ahead in the race, etc; your opponent is going to choose whichever one is best for then.
January 28, 2014 11:18 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #33
Slycne I think those are all valid points. All of the above are true for Polukranos, World Eater and Desecration Demon (sans doom b) as well though and they still have made a solid splash in standard. In the deck I'm putting him in it's just another creature to answer or lose most likely. He is not format defining but a solid card that is being underrated.
January 28, 2014 11:41 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #34
Brimaz, King of Oreskos seems just as easily answered as well. Flame-Wreathed Phoenix also appears to have a greater chance to impact the game right away, isn't legendary, and has evasion.
January 28, 2014 11:48 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 The way I see it, it's not a matter of "dies to Doom Blade " at all. Whether or not Polukranos, World Eater , Desecration Demon and Brimaz, King of Oreskos can all be answered with some of these cards is besides the point.
The point I'm advocating is that Flame-Wreathed Phoenix gives your opponent an option, something those other cards don't. I won't ever be able to use that little Last Breath trick on Desecration Demon or if Flame-Wreathed Phoenix was always just a 5/5. So in that one little slice of potential games, it's very relevant that I was able to convert on what might have been a dead card otherwise. That flexibility is going to keep biting you.
I'm not even necessarily saying that the card is all that bad, but given these situations I think other cards will muscle it out of the slot when you're talking about competitive decks at least. I would hands down take cards like Polukranos, World Eater or Fanatic of Mogis every time.
January 29, 2014 12:01 a.m.
The way I see it, it might be effective enough in a few matchups so it'll see some play. Then in those bad matchups where your opponent has multiple ways to answer it (like your control scenario) then it can be boarded out for something that helps you more. Similar to the way players will board out Desecration Demon against something with mass token producers or decks that just have way more creatures than they have answers. I think it has potential, of course the talk is all irrelevant lol, it really comes down to what the meta looks like after the new set is release. It may prove to be better than expected. Then again it could also turn out to be a total flop, but hey it can't hurt to test it out and see what your options are.
January 29, 2014 12:12 a.m.
I agree with abenz419... the debate here is not so much "Is giving your opponent a choice a bad thing?", so much is "Are there some opponents who will benefit from having a choice?".
Yes, Control decks will be able to benefit from having a choice (not always, but more often that most other deck archetypes), in that they can decide which option will net them less damage before their inevitable* answer can be played.
However, for any other deck type the answer won't usually be as simple, or as clear-cut.
This is one of those cards that you don't sideboard in, because if you're playing it, it should be mainboard ... but makes for a good option to sideboard out against some decks.
January 29, 2014 8:14 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #38
The flexibility can indeed hinder you, it can also be a boon. Remember when your opponent is making their decision they are considering what they know, the board state, their hand and their deck. They cannot (usually) know what's in your hand, or in your deck. (usually) and therefore could well be making decisions that aren't in their best interest.
Your Last Breath trick doesn't work if I have a Giant Growth .
Detention Sphere ? May I introduce you to Abrupt Decay
Etc, etc, etc.
You are, and probably everyone facing it will react to it like it's in a vacuum, not really seeing the combinations and trouble they are getting themselves in. I notice that in almost every example you gave Slycne you are trying to answer it, trying to find a card or combo's of cards to nullify the threat. That just proves it's a threat beyond doubt, and worthy of it's place.
I think this card is definetly strong enough for competitive decks, even pro tour decks, and will see play. I'm not saying it's broken or over powered or that everyone at there aunt will have a playset just that you shouldn't look down on the card because it's mechanic isn't ideal.
There are examples of bad tribute cards, abilities that are strong yet so different that you are probably never going to get what you want. For example Nessian Wilds Ravager , both very powerful abilities except the one your opponent picks, (unless you are doing something sneaky) won't be the one you want.
Where as in the case of the Flame-Wreathed Phoenix although there are situations where he'll come down in the wrong form, most of the time it really won't matter. I'm playing him to either A) block creatures, not ideal but can be necessary to survive or B) attack my opponent. Both of his forms can do either, admittedly the second ability is much better at A).
January 29, 2014 9:10 a.m.
Rayenous I don't think it's limited to control though. Any deck is going to get the same choice, just with different cards and board states affecting the outcome. Flame-Wreathed Phoenix will always be whatever mode your opponent thinks is better for them either because of removal, blockers, racing situations, etc.
Schuesseled Sure, but I don't see how that has an effect on the discussion. Whether or not Abrupt Decay can blow up Detention Sphere or another card can answer another card is besides the point. Abrupt Decay can blow up Detention Sphere regardless of it being Flame-Wreathed Phoenix or Storm Crow . If however Flame-Wreathed Phoenix was always a 3/3 haste then I'd take 3 before I could Detention Sphere , but because I get a choice I wouldn't normally I can mitigate that damage. Or inversely if it was always a 5/5 flyer, then another card or situation would be awkward for me. The point isn't that X card or X situations answers Flame-Wreathed Phoenix , but that X+Y cards and situations can because of the tribute mechanic and that giving your opponent that flexibility would makes other cards in the slot a better choice.
I'd be willing to bet the only place this will even potentially see competitive play is block constructed. I, personally, extremely doubt we'll ever see this in a GP or PT Top8 deck.
January 29, 2014 9:57 a.m.
Not every deck in every matchup is always going to have an answer ready the second you play it. Even when they do have answers available in their deck, they're not always gonna have multiple answers to it like control does. Think about it, if their only answer to the Phoenix is spot removal, then they're gonna give you a 5/5 flyer whether they have an answer already in their hand or not, because if they aren't holding removal when you play it then giving you a 3/3 means they're gonna have to draw two answers for it. One, to kill it and return it to your hand, two, so they can pay the tribute and kill it for good the second time. That means your opponent immediately goes on a 4 turn clock where they have to draw an answer or their dead. Just because your opponent gets to choose what is the best scenario for them, doesn't mean that either of those choices is a good one, they could simply be choosing which is the least worst.
January 29, 2014 10:27 a.m.
Pr0m3theu5 says... #42
Why the hate on this creature? This is as mythic as it gets!Just see it as 2 different creature, where your opponent choses which one enters the battlefield. Either a flying 5/5 for 4 mana - not many of those around! Or a flying 3/3 with haste and unconditional return to your hand after removal, except it gets exiled. Highly aggro, high damage threat and in wants an immediate response. That is what magic is about, get out threats so your opponent HAS to do something NOW. You can't save the cards mostly but if you curve out the next threat will enter next turn.I had an idea around that little buddy This Tree is on fiiiiireeee! maybe thats clears things up or schows how bad I am. You decide :D
January 30, 2014 7:53 a.m.
I opened this card in the prerelease and I was really excited to pplay it. When I played this card in sealed it was unbelievably good. It won me 6 games and tied in really well with the Ordeal of Heliod . Then I started to get into the final games and i face a lot of removal. People always paid tribute and then removed it from existence. It was shutdown by Stormbreath Dragon and made me lose just as many games as i had won.
Now lets get away from sealed and talk about standard. It is a really effective way of shutting down Desecration Demon which i have seen many people talk about but of course the opponent would have to not pay tribute to make it effective against Desecration Demon .
I have a feeling this creature won't get played without tribute being paid because every single deck has some way of removing it. Whether it will be a simple Doom Blade or an expensive burn spell it is a very easy creature to be removed.
To conclude I can see this being either a valueless mythic or an unsuspected sleeper. We have no idea what the next block will include let alone Return from nyx for that matter. I just can't see this card getting played in Born of the Gods.
February 9, 2014 10:54 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #44
"because every single deck has some way of removing it. Whether it will be a simple Doom Blade or an expensive burn spell it is a very easy creature to be removed."
The same could be said about brimaz, it's sitting at 30 bucks.
Dies to removal, is not an argument that makes sense. Try again.
I can't stress enough that: If you try to play this card without already knowing what your opponent will choose then you are a fool. And if you expect me to do that with mine then you are an either bigger fool.
/thread
February 9, 2014 11:08 a.m.
jaggthemiller says... #45
Like i read on wizards tribute creatures are there to dice your opponent to decide between a very worth it creature or an option they may not like..for pheniox its pick a 5/5 flyer or a 3/3 with haste that youll see again both options are iffy if no amswers
February 9, 2014 11:46 a.m.
the3rdH0kage says... #46
I use it in my R/W Devotion deck and it did work at FNM last week. Won me a few game, regardless of the tribute was paid (about 75% he was the 3/3).
February 9, 2014 5:21 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #47
You're right, almost every bomb dies to removal of some kind. The problem is that most other mythics don't die as easily removal or get you a lot more for the cost. Take Stormbreath Dragon for example, he dodges a good amount of removal AND gets to swing in immediately whether you opponent is ready for it or not AND he has a useful ability for the late game against control. Compared to Brimaz, the Phoenix also compares unfavorably, Brimaz comes down on turn three, is a 3/4 vigilant AND generates more and more free value the longer he stays alive and combative. Flame-Wreathed is either just a 5/5 flyer, or a bigger, more expensive Chandra's Phoenix depending on which one your opponent feels best equipped to deal with.
Also if my understanding of the rules is right, you can kill Flame-Wreathed with a Lightning Strike : You choose not to pay tribute and then respond to the "when Flame-Wreathed Phoenix enters the battlefied" trigger with a strike. The Phoenix should die and then there's no creature to gain the revival ability.
Kind of hard to get hype about a mythic that you can bolt to death. it's the same reason people were skeptical about Kiora, the Crashing Wave
February 9, 2014 6:58 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #48
Your understanding is incorrect, it enter the battlefield with the counters already attached, there is no triggered effect you can respond to with a Lightning Strike , that would not work at all.
99% of mythics printed are vulnerable to removal, 99% don't have haste. These percentages are obviously made up, but to say that it's not a good mythic because it doesn't A) have haste (which it does or can do) and B) dies to removal is frankly stupid.
No one is going to argue that he's better than Brimaz, Brimaz is pushed, which is to say he's been given a lot of qualities it did not need so that it would immediately be constructed viable and cost a zillion dollars. There tends to be one card like this in every set.
The fact of the matter is that the phoenix is a threat that has to be answered when it hits the field, just like a red mythic should. I swear most people are hating on this card simply because Hellrider didn't get reprinted.
February 9, 2014 7:32 p.m.
I think the fact that it's a mythic should have no determining of how good the card is. All being mythic will do is make sure that no matter how much born of the gods is printed that Flame-Wreathed Phoenix 's numbers will be limited in comparison
February 9, 2014 8:56 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #50
I said when you don't pay tribute you can lightning strike it in response to it's "when this enters the battlefield if tribute wasn't paid" trigger.
I also explained that yeah, most creatures are vulnerable to some kind of removal. The point is that Flame-Wreathed dies to more than his contemporaries (Blood Baron of Vizkopa , Stormbreath Dragon Purphoros, God of the Forge ) and doesn't really do much. Yeah he's a threat if your opponent lets him be a 5/5 which means they expect to have a removal spell in a few turns. He only ever has haste when you opponent chooses to let it have haste and be a 3/3 they can outrace, or Detention Sphere it. or have it Chained to the Rocks or just block forever with a x/4 flier or x/4 reacher.
it's a card that isn't very hard to beat as far as big red bombs go.
tman007 says... #2
I would like it better with haste but it reminds me of Chandra's Phoenix . Could see mono-red play, but not a format-changing card.
January 14, 2014 9:31 p.m.