Force of Will change to red?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Sept. 24, 2015, 8 p.m. by Kyleeee
I think that Force of Will could become one of the only red counter spells, but more expensive and at a higher cost to use. I think that the name and the idea of the card would be interesting for red. If, for example, the text was changed to counter target creature spell, and cost being losing 4 life and one card, it would be more fair. It would be an enchantment that counters when the next opponent creature spell with power 4 or greater enters the battlefield; the idea being it is an active plan, and sacrifices when used. Force of Will is the type of card that red would use on a rare basis. Force of Will is similar to your enemy trying to hire someone, and you having an active plan.
Programmer_112 says... #3
It doesn't really fit into red at all. Historically, the only red counterspells are Pyroblast-style cards (and technically Artifact Blast), and I think that's exactly where red belongs.
September 24, 2015 8:03 p.m.
FoW is pretty bad. It's a 2 for 1 that doesnt win the game.
September 24, 2015 8:05 p.m.
a little bit of both. Tempo wise is is bad. I do understand the merits of a free counterspell, but that counter tends to stop you from losing. it doesnt actually get you any closer to winning.
September 24, 2015 8:12 p.m.
First, Force of Will is never getting reprinted.
Second, Counterspells aren't even close to Red's color pie. The color that's second in counterspells is White, with cards like Mana Tithe and such.
Third, just NO.
The blue card I have a problem with from a Gameplay perspective that should be red is Snapcaster Mage, which is what it was for the most of design before Tiago told them it should be blue.
September 24, 2015 8:14 p.m.
They will never make a card like Force of Will again, ever
Red doesn't need any kind of counterspell that isn't Pyroblast
September 24, 2015 8:18 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #9
JWiley129 counterspells isn't red's thing? Molten Influence would beg to differ. (DarkHero can get in on the joke as well. lol)
September 24, 2015 8:21 p.m. Edited.
JWiley129 white has how many counterspells? Mana Tithe and what else?
Let's break this down.
green has Avoid Fate, Guttural Response
Black has Dash Hopes, Withering Boon and sort of Imp's Mischief
Red: Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Molten Influence and Artifact Blast
September 24, 2015 8:25 p.m. Edited.
canterlotguardian & NecroPony: First, we should really ignore all cards printed before Mirrodin? That's my barrier for "Modern" Magic design, pun unintended.
Second, mono-white counterspells not from Time Spiral block: Frontline Medic, Judge's Familiar (hybrid means mono-white can do it), and Lapse of Certainty. Also white gets "counterspells" like Nevermore which prevent you from casting the spell preemptively.
September 24, 2015 8:29 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #12
am I the only 1 whos Shunted a counter to target itself? Now THAT is a red counterspell.
September 24, 2015 8:30 p.m.
not be edh standards it can't. Refering to the Judge's Familiar which is weird. Edh is weird. Like what's the logic/lore behind hybrid not working?...But im getting off topic.
September 24, 2015 8:33 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #15
Well, we got Mages' Contest for mono red counterspells.
As a more real option Double Negative but that's U/R.
September 24, 2015 8:47 p.m.
Fun fact, the art for force of will was originally intended for a red card.
September 24, 2015 8:52 p.m.
TheDuggernaught says... #17
@ DERPLINGSUPREME fun fact: You cant do that.
"113.4. A spell or ability on the stack is an illegal target for itself."
But you can have Shunt redirect the counter spell to Shunt. Unless that is what you meant. In which case, carry on.
September 24, 2015 9:02 p.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #18
@TheDuggernaught okay. I assumed it was different b/c the target was force-chosen after its original target had been targeted, but I guess I was wrong.
anyhow, what you mentioned works in the same way, just not as hilarious.
September 24, 2015 9:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
What is this thread even supposed to be? Speculation? A custom card idea?
September 24, 2015 9:24 p.m.
i'm going to get a ton of crap for this, but u guyz, FoW isn't on the reserve list... there is like a 1 in a billion chance, but it exists...
September 24, 2015 10:09 p.m.
I'm just as confused, Epoch. I think this is what the young 'uns call a "shitpost."
September 24, 2015 10:09 p.m.
I thought that the best way for Force of Will to have an modern equivalent was for it to be red, and the only creature redirection for red. I didn't know that it was a controversial topic. I thought that there would be weaker opinions.
September 24, 2015 10:15 p.m.
slovakattack says... #24
You know what's really funny?
In development, Force of Will was originally a red card. I'm not joking, look it up. It's why the motif of the art is so red. They changed it down the line, but when Neilsen got the order for the art, it was for a red card.
September 24, 2015 10:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #26
This thread was moved to a more appropriate forum (auto-generated comment)
September 24, 2015 11:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
You got these responses because you're basically taking one of the highest-profile cards in the game—one that's basically guaranteed un-reprintable—and making it worse in every way, then moving it into a color that doesn't have any business using the effect, then changing the card type (?) all because . . . well, it's not exactly clear. The thread just seems ill conceived. You could have a genuine intention, and I don't deny that you do, but the method has produced the madness.
September 24, 2015 11:04 p.m.
I see. I was wanting to float around the idea more than make them. My original was saying 3-5 life 1-2 cards as the cost of the card.
It is bad, but that was the intention for the card. I thought that people held it non-personally.
September 24, 2015 11:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
Once again, it's not personal. It's the presentation.
September 24, 2015 11:35 p.m.
Would you explain? :) I mean personal in the sense that people didn't enjoy thinking of the alternatives.
September 25, 2015 12:03 a.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #31
@Kyleeee jesus frik-nickin christ man, stop before you set off the second-hand man YeaSavior!
AND HE'S ON THE LEFT TOO! HE ISN'T THE HAND OF FORGIVENESS!!!
September 25, 2015 12:06 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #32
Whatever the reason, purpose, and method, this thread has amused me, which is my reason and purpose. :)
September 25, 2015 10:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
@DERPLINGSUPREME: Post constructively or don't post. I really shouldn't have to be telling you this considering we temp banned you at least once for shitposting.
September 25, 2015 10:26 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #34
@Kyleeee: The premise of the conversation is just flawed. You don't present any compelling reason to bring back some kind of FoW rework. Nor do you prevent a compelling reason for making the changes you've made. FoW is one of those cards that the community widely agreed should not be brought back. It's a relic that no longer fits into the design paradigm.
September 25, 2015 10:29 a.m.
Ohhh well i never post at all but im going to jump into this!!Im not saying wotc should print this, im not saying is balanced, im just trying to have a way of making a red counterspell.
R - Chaotic ResponseCounter target spell. If you do, the owner of the spell may reaveal the top 5 cards of his or her library and may cast one spell without paying its mana cost. Put the rest of the cards on the bottom of the library.
That way, red has a counterspell, its playable at only R, it plays on red fluff (chaos) and may bite you on your back, since you may be countering something, but making you op play something better that was originallly casted (if top 5 is to few, make it top 10, whatever)
September 25, 2015 11:42 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #36
pablucas welcome to posting. it's fun. you should do it more. :D
September 25, 2015 12:09 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #37
@pablucas: It would at least need to read something like "Counter target spell controlled by an opponent. If you do, that player may shuffle their deck, then reveal the top card of his or her library, and may cast that card if it is a non-land without paying the mana cost." to make it harder to abuse. (I'm sure the text could be clearer than I made it.)
It'd be too easy to cheat your own expensive stuff into play; you could cast Brainstorm or Phyrexian Walker or something, counter it yourself, and then cast your own favorite Time Walk variant for free.
September 25, 2015 12:31 p.m.
thx for the welcome canterlotguardian
yes, it should read "target spell an opponent controls", if not it would be very very abussable.
The thing is, it wouldnt be to crazy to have a playable red counterspell, since you could splash the word "chaos" and some random effect, and call it a day!!
September 25, 2015 12:44 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #39
More on topic: I've heard Force of Will called the card that makes some formats playable at all. I don't have much experience outside of playing Limited and Commander, though. If it is really so critical, and yet also unreprintable, is it strange to consider them printing a functional replacement? They've printed a few things that were similar, like Commandeer, but all the ones I know of have been blue. Something like a red Misdirection might suit better than a red Force of Will (and redirection effects have appeared a few times in Red's repertoire more recently than most of its counterspells).
I am ignorant of the specifics in the current Constructed formats though, so I could be way off base; I also don't think any of this is exactly imminent.
September 25, 2015 1 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #40
Fun fact they already printed a "fixed" FoW that's modern legal already. Surprised no one has mentioned it yet: Disrupting Shoal
Obviously not the same but it's the closest thing you will find in modern to FoW and it's actually seen constructed play before Delve became popular since most of modern was 1-3 cmc, now we have things like Banana boy and his zombie fish friend so it's a bit less predictable.
Dylan says... #2
I don't think wizards of the coast will ever print another card similar to Force of Will....
Also If it was in red and it cost 5 life and 2 cards, it would be bad
September 24, 2015 8:03 p.m. Edited.