I heard they are making a new From the Vault
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Feb. 18, 2014, 4:49 p.m. by Magiclover318
I just can't remember the name of it, so could you help me out?
Magiclover318 says... #3
Okay yeah I thought I looked for annihilation but I'll look again. I hope it is cause I want it (and the other cards as well) for my mono black
February 18, 2014 5:02 p.m.
thataddkid says... #5
Official confirmation
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1426
February 18, 2014 5:04 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #6
Yeah I found it thanks. What do you guys think it will cost for us? $150-200?
I don't want the MSRP price. I know that price.
February 18, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #7
No idea. Probably won't have an idea until we get at least 5 cards out of it.
February 18, 2014 5:14 p.m.
My local is going for $200. Bloody ridiculous. Wizards needs to try a lot harder to control the market.
February 18, 2014 5:20 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #9
That's insane. ChiefBell I think that is crazy. I think my lgs is wanting to do 150 but I don't know.
I wanna buy it but damn. It's so much cash
February 18, 2014 5:24 p.m.
Product Concept and Development:Gavin Verhey and Jeremy Jarvis
Release Date: August 22, 2014
Magic Online Release Date: August 22, 2014
MSRP: $34.99
At the bottoms of: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1426
It's saying the retail prices it $35
February 18, 2014 5:25 p.m.
No, it's not at all. It's saying the recommended price is $35 but due to market circumstances created by Wizards (ie - small and limited supply and no upper cap on price) the local gaming stores are selling it for $200. Wizards are just being lazy and incompetent, which doesn't surprise me.
February 18, 2014 5:26 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #13
No. That is what Wizards of the Coast is selling it to the distributors. The local game stores in other words.
February 18, 2014 5:27 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #14
My shop pretty much doesn't care about making money, so I get wine for MSRP +5%. So that FTV20 was hella cheap.
Other shops are bound to have it for a hugely inflated price.
February 18, 2014 5:41 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #15
Geez that's lucky ! I wish I could get it that cheap.
February 18, 2014 5:47 p.m.
It is entirely possible for wizards to set a semi-controlled market by making a price agreement with sellers. But they don't because..... they don't care. We must assume.
February 18, 2014 5:48 p.m.
Before someone says 'that's bullshit, they couldn't!' or something similar - I would mention that this is very common with other luxury items like cards. It's almost standard procedure.
February 18, 2014 5:49 p.m.
So what if it costs $100+? The value of all the cards will be similar to that price anyways. They are foil, they are EDH and Modern/Legacy staples and will be sought after. I have no problem purchasing it for $150 if I get value out of it, just like FTV:20. It's not that big of a deal. My LGS still has FTV20 on the shelves because people think it's to much. That's your opinion. If I bought an Xbox One for $500 and 25 people wanted it, I could take the highest offer. Same difference; it's a limited product.
February 18, 2014 6:19 p.m.
Lol. A lot of the FTV are full of trash cards and are in no way worth the amount that they cost as a full box. Not all of them are staples, not all of them are sought after.
February 18, 2014 6:22 p.m.
FTV:20 retails for $200 where I am.JTMS retails for around $80.
Where did the other $120 come from?
February 18, 2014 6:26 p.m.
Sorry your LGS screws you over. Payed $100 for mine. Perhaps you should go somewhere that prices things a little better? I don't have a problem with local stores making money. Capitalism my friend.
February 18, 2014 6:33 p.m.
They price the same as starcity which is very standard. Your LGS is in the minority 'friend'.
Furthermore, there's a difference between capitalism and market monopolism. Fair market values and other things come into account in usual business transactions. It's just Wizards can't be bothered to do this. It's really very basic consumer protection that places that have a better standard of economic regulation use almost everday. Given that I don't feel like given an economics lesson I won't pursue this further but I find the endless 'it's ok for stores to screw me over because capitalism is my friend' attitude of those in the US extremely tiresome. Really, at the end of the day it's that attitude that leads to the kind of problems you have in wider in society, but cool.
February 18, 2014 6:47 p.m.
It's just infuriating to think that basic economic procedure dictates that Wizards should and could stop these kind of shenanigans from going on. They owe it to their customers at the very least, and it would probably bolster sales. Instead they have stupid laid-back free market approach which just doesn't work (evidently). There's absolutely no reason to support a free-for-all when all that happens is that certain consumers in certain areas get screwed.
February 18, 2014 6:50 p.m.
The reason the MSRP is so high is because of supply and demand. There will always be a high demand for FtV sets so the price will reflect this. WotC makes them have a limited print run so the supply is low. Both of these combined cause the spike in prices of FtV sets. And it will continue this way until WotC decides to do prize control like they do with sealed product that is Standard legal.
February 18, 2014 6:55 p.m.
The MSRP is the recommended price which is low - it's $35.
The actual price is high because, like you said supply and demand comes into it.
My argument is that wizards should guarantee a ceiling price on FTV like they do with other sealed products.
I do not know how you could misunderstand my argument so badly
February 18, 2014 6:59 p.m.
In actually agreeing with you ChiefBell, just trying to provide the economics lesson you didn't want to give.
February 18, 2014 7 p.m.
Oh sorry. I just got confused because you siad the MSRP was high, when it's low.
That in essence is the infuriating thing. Wizards manages to operate a fair economic landscape with other sealed product but doesn't with FTV. Why?
February 18, 2014 7:03 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #28
I love how this thread was finished after the first post, but is still going.
Anyway, FtV Gunna be Expensive, Plays gunna Pay for it, Wizards gunna Wiz, just like always.
People Pay money for Magic cards, I'm not sure why this still seems to be coming as a shock to some people.
February 18, 2014 7:03 p.m.
What part of controlled market do you not understand?
Of course people are going to pay money but it's in the hands of the supplier to ensure that the customer is treated fairly.
February 18, 2014 7:07 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #30
99% of shops (In my experience) do treat their customers fairly when it comes to highly allocated products like this.
They set up a list of interest, order exactly that many, then charge enough to be competitive while still making money. What part of that isn't fair? Does your LGS take body parts for FtV boxes?
The supplier here has previously expressed that it doesn't allocate itself with the secondary market influences in new printings, so this needs to be taken into account when complaining that Wizards doesn't care about its customers. Its not up to them to make sure that everyone gets everything that they need for a good price. It is up to them to supply the stores with product so that the stores can make sure that everyone has what they need. If something is in limited print, stores need to be on top of that. It seems to me that your beef with wizards should be directed at the stores that are ripping you off.
February 18, 2014 7:12 p.m.
When the shops are ordering in for below MSRP and then charging more than 600% more - that's not fair. That's a ridiculous markup.
"Its not up to them to make sure that everyone gets everything that they need for a good price" - it is when it's brand new sealed product. This isn't secondary market selling, it's primary.
My beef is with Wizards for not controlling the suppliers. This is something that is exceedingly common, but for some reason Wizards aren't doing it. Why?
February 18, 2014 7:18 p.m.
I'm really not sure why you are so upset over this. Does the Legacy reserved list upset you as well? It sounds like your LGS doesn't cater to the consumer well.
February 18, 2014 7:29 p.m.
No, the reserved list is fine because it's not dealing with sealed product. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Brand-new, sealed product should have a ceiling product. I'm not referring to the secondary market.
No my LGS does not cater to the consumer. That's a results of this championed 'capitalism' that everyone is harking on about. Wizards. Need. To. Do. More. To. Support. The. Player. Base.
February 18, 2014 7:36 p.m.
Sorry I'm tired and making myself.
Brand new selaed should have a ceiling price.
Wizards need to ensure that new product is affordable. Not old, second hand stuff. Just new.
February 18, 2014 7:37 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #35
Yeah I am trying out a new lgs right now, so I haven't seen their prices.
February 18, 2014 9:21 p.m.
The U.S. will only implement price ceilings for things that are necessary and in an emergency. For example, setting a maximum price that bread can be sold at during a food shortage in a particular area. We don't put price ceilings on luxury goods....like From the Vaults.
The problem with setting a maximum price by WotC is that we would then have a shortage. Instead of buying just one box of FtV: 20 at $200, people would buy four boxes at $50 each. It's a supply and demand thing. Limiting each individual person to one copy of FtV: 20 at a ceiling price would be unrealistic and impossible to implement, especially with online retailers being how they are. Then you get into weird territory of when can a buyer resale the product. Do boxes of FtV: 20 forever sit at $35 or should I be allowed to sell them at $200 five years from now? Should I be allowed to sell sealed boxes of Zendikar for above their MSRP?
The real mistake WotC made with the last from the vault was including Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the box, instead of Stoneforge Mystic . By including Jace, the Mind Sculptor , they basically said "Yep. The MSRP really is just a suggestion. Good luck finding one below $100!"
February 19, 2014 6:51 a.m.
sylvannos - this is not true. As one example, the office of fair trading regulations in the US is responsible (among other things) for ensuring fair pricing and quality of products that consumers buy from retailers. This entire governmental department is, in essence, a market regulatory body that ensures that prices are fair and quality is high. The most common cases involve disputes just liek this where retailers are excessivley marking up certain products. In fact, in larger markets (more important goods such as cars) fines are regularly given if this kind of thing happens. There was a case with Dunlop tyres recently I think.
The comment about regulating the quantity that a shop buys is correct but also a bit of a cop-out. It's a simple thing to say that no shop may buy more than 100 boxes (as an example). That's not a big deal at all. Depending on the size of the shop and the licensing of the premises (how big the shop is, the number of sales they make a week) this is easy to change and confrom to. It's already don in music shops (sorry I can't think of a better example but I have experience working in guitar shops where the number of items they can buy in is regulated).
Furthermore resale periods are not a problem either. Contracts are usually signed that have a clause giving a definite time period in which the market regulation is in effect. After 3 or 4 years it become null and void. Maybe even sooner. It's at the discretion of the supplier.
Nothing you've said is any problem a supplier should have in dealing with a retailer. They have ways of ensuring -
- Fair price.
- Sufficient (but not too much!) quantity.
- Length of price regulation.
This is really basic economics.
February 19, 2014 8:27 a.m.
I don't see how you think it's even possible for Wizards to put a price cap on these...
If people are willing to pay $200, that's what they will sell at.
The only control Wizards has over the market is the supply.
Put it this way - If Wizards did state that there would be some negative effect to retailers who sell above their cap, then they would all sell at the cap... this is so low that each store would have 1-2 individuals come in and purchase the entire supply. (If you think that LGS's will limit sales, you're probably kidding yourself.... some may, but the majority simply want to sell product and make money)
6 hours later, all stores would be sold out, and the only place to purchase it would be through ebay... at the $200 that people are willing to pay.
It's the nature of economy. If there is a perceived value, the market can and will reflect it.
I, for one, purchased 1 FTV:20.... if they sold for $40, I would have tried to purchase 4... but I can guarantee that if they sold for $40, there would have been none available by the time I got to my LGS.
I would have ended up still having to purchase 1 through some shady after-marktd online retailer... and it would have cost MORE than I ended up paying for it at my LGS.
The only way to keep the prices low is to not limit the printing (i.e: increase supply). - This would flood the market and ruin the value of the cards in the set.
February 19, 2014 8:31 a.m.
@ChiefBell: The Dunlop Tyres case was in the U.K., not the U.S.
Second, we don't have an Office of Fair Trading Regulations in the U.S. We have the Federal Trade Commission and the Better Business Bureau. Neither of which will step in on behalf of luxury items unless monopolies start to form or anti-trust laws are broken.
The most WotC can do is force retailers to sign contracts saying they will not sell above the MSRP. This is really common, actually, for manufacturers to do, in order to prevent retailers from undercutting competitors. Rarely is this used in the U.S. to implement price ceilings. Price ceilings are only introduced when there's an emergency or for essential goods, like oil, food, etc.
Third: we've had shortages of products caused by price ceilings. Plywood after Hurricane Katrina, oil shortages during the 1973 OAPEC embargo, etc. All such shortages were caused when the U.S. government implemented price ceilings and people bought more than they needed. Supply wasn't in equilibrium with demand.
It really seems it's you who doesn't understand basic economics, especially how it pertains to the United States.
What WotC should have done to support the player base was reprint Jace, the Mind Sculptor in a set that wasn't so limited and put Stoneforge Mystic in FtV: 20. Or, they should have printed off more copies of FtV: 20 and allowed department stores to carry it (instead of just LGS). I was a little ticked off myself that I couldn't get a copy of the FtV: 20 because I wanted cards out of there for EDH and for my cube. But since it's a luxury product, I am in no way entitled to buy one at the MSRP when others are willing to fork over $200.
Talk about first world problems lol.
February 19, 2014 8:44 a.m.
I stand corrected, these are UK institutions, not US institutions.
However, this certainly does not demonstrate that what I'm saying is false. It just demonstrates that the kinds of procedure I'm talking about aren't commonplace outside of Europe.
February 19, 2014 8:48 a.m.
You've said it yourself here -
The most WotC can do is force retailers to sign contracts saying they will not sell above the MSRP. This is really common, actually, for manufacturers to do, in order to prevent retailers from undercutting competitors. Rarely is this used in the U.S. to implement price ceilings. Price ceilings are only introduced when there's an emergency or for essential goods, like oil, food, etc.
Sorry I'm trying to sort a CV out at the moment. I'll come back later. Regardless of the potential shortfalls of this methodology we all seem to agree that itsn't only possible, it is actually practised.
February 19, 2014 8:52 a.m.
Magiclover318 MSRP is the price the Manufacture (Wizards/Hasbro in this case) suggests that the retailer (LGS's in this case) sells it at. MSRP == Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price. Retail price being what it is sold at, Wholesale price is what distributors sell at. The actual cost to the distributor and what the LGS pay is actually below that. The LGS's are paying about 25-30 for each one, maybe less, maybe a bit more.
ChiefBell setting the price at 200$ before we even have a real clue to what's in there is really damn greedy and bad business.
February 19, 2014 8:53 a.m.
I don't think this is a case of anyone blatantly misunderstanding economics.
What we're arguing is whether it is Wizards duty to, in some way, constrain natural supply and demand by placing upper limits on wholesale price.
We all know about the basic 101 principles of supply and demand. That's fine. We're arguing about the extent to which it is correct for Wizards to interfere with this.
To anyone who says that the US doesn't practice any market regulation - bollocks, it certainly does in various forms, in various industries. It's not unreasonable.
To everyone else -
We all know and agree that this at the least possible but whether it is reasonable is another question.
My argument is that it IS Wizards reasonable duty to do this.
February 19, 2014 9:01 a.m.
Magiclover318 says... #45
Guys. All I wanted to know is what the name of the from the vault is. Yeah I mentioned something about price but my initial request was answered.
Please stop this petty debate. It is going nowhere.
February 19, 2014 9:08 a.m.
It's interesting to have a debate about things like this without necessary attacking another person with personal comments. In that case it IS a petty debate but I would say that this isn't one of them.
I'm just eager to ask questions and talk about how Magic is handled as a business and what more could be done for the consumer.
It's not a petty debate, it's actually a pretty important debate for the good of suppliers and consumers. There's nothing nasty about this conversation - it's interesting and is addressing key issues we have as players.
I have nothign against sylvannos or US law. I do represent a different background, that is evident but I think we can all learn something by talking and asking how we expect to be treated as customers. I find this sort of thing interesting and I'm glad to have people who represent both sides of the argument.
February 19, 2014 9:11 a.m.
In my case Magiclover318 You have misinformation, which I didn't see corrected and corrected it.
As for the rest of my comment, it was an opinion. You can unsubscribe if the conversation isn't to your liking. I agree with ChiefBell it is an interesting debate, on top of that, this information is good to have and understand, especially if you plan to open a business of your own.
February 19, 2014 9:17 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #48
My LGS sells everything at MSRP (which is the recommended retail price, not the price Wizards charges retail stores), including the FTV sets. The preorders sell out in a matter of minutes though.
I can understand stores charging a little more for items in hot demand, but not 5x MSRP. I won't spend money at a retail shop that rips off customers.
There must be things that Wizards can do. They could probably set a price cap on new merchandise, and stores that violate that cap could be thrown out of the Wizards Play Network. They already have some policies in place for the stores that are part of the WPN.
February 19, 2014 12:57 p.m.
That wouldn't work... as per my first post on the thread; if all stores were to be forced to sell at a price cap, people would simply buy out the sets at the cap and sell them online at the usual markup price, as that is what people are willing to pay.
I would be willing to bet that many stores would in fact sell most of their product online under another name.
If you're lucky, you would get one from your LGS at MSRP, but the majority wouldn't.
Plus, due to less supply in stores, the online prices would be much higher.
February 19, 2014 1:57 p.m.
SharuumNyan The only thing that can be done, is doing what you suggest. Consumers voting with their wallet. Not paying what the LGS's want or inflated markup online. It's changed my shop a little bit. I'm able to buy at a place that sells everything at MSRP, it's a small card shop, where the owner is not trying to price out the locals. My actual LGS under the old owner would gouge for as much as he could. But I stopped buying the premium products from him and bought at the other place (still bought singles and regular sealed products from him). The new owner, who was also the co-owner saw that and is now charging MSRP or a tiny bit of mark up for the products. So I buy at my LGS now.
Servo_Token says... #2
Annihilation, I believe.
Damnation is the presumed chase card.
February 18, 2014 4:58 p.m.