In Garruk's Wake
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 17, 2014, 7:38 a.m. by Rayenous
Might be a little over costed to see regular Standard play, but a one-sided board wipe for Black... without -1/-1's... without 'sacrifice'.
Don't think we've seen anything like it since Plague Wind in 10th Edition. (This allows Regenerate, but hits Planeswalkers)
Schuesseled says... #3
This isn't playable, you'd need 6 devotion and 6 mana to play this using nykthos, what's the likely hood of that.
June 17, 2014 8:03 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #4
Conceivably you could fire this off by playing Underworld Connections , then Desecration Demon into Gray Merchant of Asphodel whilst hitting every land drop....
June 17, 2014 8:06 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
The thing is that it isn't like I'm suggesting this fits in a control deck where they are trying clear the field turn 4 to cast their own bombs. This fits into a deck that is aggressively playing out its hand and needs something to break a grid lock on turn 6 or 7. I mentioned Nykthos only because turn 9 is a bit late.
I'm not saying this will become a part of that deck, only that we will probably see someone try to make it a part of that deck. And even then I feel this is a sideboard card against board stalls.
June 17, 2014 8:39 a.m.
A T4 Crypt Ghast (until it rotates), T5 "In Garruk's Wake" would be possible, but that's quite a bit of "Build-around-me". - Perhaps with enough other reasons to play Crypt Ghast ... like T4 Crypt Ghast , T5 2x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
June 17, 2014 9:43 a.m.
I look forward to Spelljack ing this in EDH (it will be played a lot in EDH).
June 17, 2014 11:19 a.m.
beakedbard says... #10
Even if it doesn't target your creatures and targets planeswalkers wipes should never even be considered if they cost more than 6cmc imo. The fact that its at sorc speed and can be countered just add to how useless it is. Why do wizards even bother wasting the rare slots with cards like this? :/
June 17, 2014 11:40 a.m.
I"m not arguing with you on this ChiefBell, just pointing out that you and a million other people said the same thing about Desecration Demon when it was spoiled. Now look, it's been run as a 4 of in the best deck in standard for the last 7 or 8 months.
Nothing personally against you, this is just generally how i feel about this subject, but I feel like anyone who can declare a card completely garbage the second they see it for the first time is a fool. There are so many unknown factors to take into consideration that it's literally impossible to make that kind of determination. Especially in the case of M15 spoilers, where there is still somewhere around 600+ cards that will be in the same standard block that have yet to even be revealed. Sure you can make assumptions and inferences and you may even be right, but making an assumption isn't the same as declaring something. So, I feel like anyone who just outright declares something as a fact because they looked at the card for 5 seconds is an idiot. In a way I almost wish they didn't spoil cards before their release, because for those few weeks every casual kitchen table magic player thinks they're suddenly god's gift to mankind when it comes to judging a card. If you actually look during spoiler time you'll see that according the tapped out community every card ever spoiled is garbage. There is so much hate and negativity towards every newly spoiled card that someone who doesn't play magic would be left under the impression that there has never been a good card ever printed. In reality, people just can't grasp the concept that there is no steadfast rule for determining how good a card is. For example, I think most people would agree that Blood Baron of Vizkopa is a good card. Looking at it in a vacuum, it has protection from black and white, both of which have excellent removal options, and lifelink. What's not to like about that. But then if I were to tell you that your only going to play against R/G monsters decks, now your thought process changes. Suddenly a 4/4 for 5 mana with lifelink and pro white and pro black doesn't look like such a good card. It's all about context!!
It's like whenever someone asks a question about a cards expectations come rotation time. The first dozen responses or so will all say something like "there's no way to know for sure because we have no clue what the meta will look like or what new cards will be introduced in the next set", because context matters.
But, you spoil 1 card out of a set of 269 cards and everyone can immediately tell you whether or not the card is good or bad and what archetypes will play it and which ones won't, etc. Suddenly not knowing what the meta will look like come rotation and not knowing what other cards are going to be released are completely irrelevant. As if those things don't matter when trying to determine a card's usability, just when your trying to come up with a price,
June 17, 2014 12:26 p.m.
Lol no I didn't. I loved D Demon from the start. I used to run it alongside the night hawk in the m13 days. I've actually got a fairly good track record for these kind of predictions.
June 17, 2014 12:31 p.m.
Also you know for a fact that standard won't reach a stage where a 9 drop spell Is being played. The overall tempo of standard hasn't changed in a very long time. Whilst I might not know the set, I know the speed of the decks that are playable in its most applicable format.
Saying that it's literally impossible is a massive over exaggeration.
June 17, 2014 12:34 p.m.
Not even edh wants this....
commander theory discussing it... follow the link in this for more info
I tend to agree with his assessment.
In standard, this is a 9 drop no one will want, Extinguish All Hope is a better version of this right now and after m15 release and will still see very little play (maybe a 1 of in some decks). but they are generally too slow to do anything meaningful in the game.
If you get to cast it, generally you're already losing and lost the game and this is just a 'last chance', which in that case you probably want a threat of your own on the board to help you win the game now or you're in the winning position, where casting it only hurts you.
June 17, 2014 12:54 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #16
I feel like the card is too high costed for any competitive environment. The odds of having support for such a card to thrive aren't great. Look at other examples of 9 mana game breakers and see how many saw competitive standard play. Even Omniscience didn't see play at 8 and you get to cast everything for free after that.
"Nothing personal against you...but you're an idiot..."
I think we need to be careful labeling anyone in any way here. It's ok to be annoyed by other people's behavior...but it's the same as the whole "acceptance vs tolerance" debate. Try to be respectful, no matter who shit in your corn flakes this morning...
June 17, 2014 12:54 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #17
Oops...Omniscience costs 10. Either way...the point still stands.
June 17, 2014 12:55 p.m.
9+ CMC cards that I have seen played in Standard or Modern at FNM.
Blasphemous Act
Blightsteel Colossus
Crush of Wurms
Darksteel Forge
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enter the Infinite
Greater Gargadon
Inkwell Leviathan
Iona, Shield of Emeria
It That Betrays
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Omniscience
Primal Surge
Progenitus
Reya Dawnbringer
Rise of the Dark Realms
Time Stretch
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Worldfire
Worldspine Wurm
Sure, not all of them are expected to be "cast", as some times they are "cheated out"... but I have seem most of them cast at one point or another, and there's no reason (at this point) to think that there will be no cards that can let you cast this "without paying it's mana cost"
So, I will defend abenz419's comment... it IS literally impossible for you to make a determination (prediction, yes... determination, no) at this point (unless you have information from Wizards, or can see the future).
June 17, 2014 12:57 p.m.
Omniscience
did see limited play in both standard and modern, omni-door was a deck, five color good stuff that used Unexpected Results
to get it out on the field, then you would Farseek
for your land you need and/or play Chromatic Lantern
and win with Door to Nothingness
, in a controlish shell.
June 17, 2014 12:58 p.m.
Rayenous the thing is those cards all win you the game the turn they are played. This one does not. That's an important factor in why this card is not going to see play at any level of standard. Playing this card is "I hope to win", not "I'm going to win".
June 17, 2014 1:01 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #21
always a counterpoint...
I concede. Just don't expect too much of it. It's a 9 mana boardwipe...albeit onesided.
June 17, 2014 1:01 p.m.
Here's a list of cards that I've seen played a few times. Because I've seen them played a few times they are therefore standard playable. Priceless.
You need to be somewhat careful with that line of reasoning, sir.
June 17, 2014 1:05 p.m.
The key distinction being that almost all of them were cheated out.
June 17, 2014 1:13 p.m.
No it's not. It may feel like it's an over exaggeration but that is just perception not reality. I'm not arguing about this card specifically, but I'll partially use it as an example like you did. First off, I do not know, and neither do you, that standard will never reach a stage where a 9 drop spell is being played. That is an assumption not a fact. Second, regarding your, "the overall tempo of standard hasn't changed in a very long time" comment. Wizards actually made it known prior to the Theros release that their intentions with this block were to slow the format down from what it had been during Innistrad and RTR block. Now, either your calling Wizards attempt at this a complete failure or it's just your opinion and not a fact that the speed hasn't changed much. I'm inclined to believe it's the latter of the two considering you make no mention of Wizards attempt to slow things down. Like I said before, you can make all the assumptions and inferences you want and you may even have a good track record for making such predictions, but making an assumption (right or wrong) isn't the same as being able to definitively declare something as true. The fact that you call them predictions only further strengthens my argument about this because if you could give a definite finite answer then there would be nothing to predict. See its all perception, when you take a step back and see that your basing your statements on your opinions and your assumptions it becomes obvious that I'm not over exaggerating when I say it's impossible to make a definitive conclusion about any recently spoiled card with so many unknown variables. Of course, that is, assuming you can grasp the concept that there is a difference between making a prediction and being proven right over time and being able to definitively declare something.
June 17, 2014 1:14 p.m.
If you had defined that you were speaking of a specific level of competitive play, then I could possibly agree with your statement.
However, you originally simply stated "Card is trash." with no further qualification or clarification.
You, of all people I see on this site, should understand that this type of "troll-statement" is going to be berated and picked apart.
Your additional qualifications of "Standard tempo is to slow." and "won't reach a stage where a 9 drop spell Is being played", both did little to justify your statement.
I use actual examples of cards that refute your claims, and specify that there are certain circumstances in which it MAY be useable... yet all you can do is generically state that my reasoning is incorrect... without specifying why.
Note: I am not stating that they are Their 1 winning decks, just that these cards saw play beyond table-top casual, and that you can not, at this time, say for sure that "In Garruk's Wake" will not see play.
June 17, 2014 1:20 p.m.
WOW, your comment about "standard will never reach a stage where a 9 drop spell is being played" looks even more foolish than I first thought. You yourself have just admitted that there are several 9+ drops that have already seen play (cheated out or not) in standard. That would mean standard has already reached a stage where a 9 drop spell is being played, completely contradicting what you originally said.
June 17, 2014 1:23 p.m.
I meant hardcast. You really are missing the point aren't you? I was going to shout at you for being stupid but I realise that you've just completely missed my point, which is probably my fault.
Standard will not reach a point where you expect to cast a 9-drop spell by playing one land per turn, without milling it into your graveyard and reanimating, without Unexpected Results etc etc etc.
I feel like I'm talking to children.
Also note that almost all of the named cards are permaments - because they weren't hardcast. There are very few ways to cheat out instants and sorceries. This isn't a permanent - it can't be cheated out. This doesn't even win you the game. There are so many reasons why your making an argument in favour of an awful cards. All of these red flags all over it saying 'don't use this card' and yet for some reason you think I'm ridiculous for saying it's trash.
I can't definitely declare something, but your argument is reductio ad absurdum. I can't definitely say that I'm going to still be alive in 10 minutes, but I can make a pretty good fucking guess. Nothing is ever certain, you can't philosophically challenge my claim from an existential perspective and expect to let that fly. That's utterly ridiculous. If you gather a decent amount of evidence to make a claim then that's good enough to be decisive. Even in science and medicine you go with a 95% certainty interval.
June 17, 2014 1:35 p.m.
Rayenous - well duh? When am I not talking about high level play. I don't care about T2 / 2.5 etc. You must know full well by know that I'm a Johhny / Spike. When I refer to the playability of a card, I refer to it's usability as at least a 2-of in the most successful decks of the season.
I didn't think I'd need to preface my point of view with a warning, because we've both seen each around on the site to know the other's point of view. My refers specifically to top tier play.
Also the list of cards you presented is dubious in that regard. Contaning many cards that DIDN'T see high level play, and does contain those that weren't hardcast.
Neither of you have done anything to refute my claims. This is a 9-drop spell that won't be used outside of some niche combo deck that somehow cheats it out. In my eyes, that makes it trash. And I have enough evidence to be comfortably certain in the most human way possible.
June 17, 2014 1:40 p.m.
Sorry for typos. Was playing guitar and came back to see a wall of text from one of you accusing me of being stupid for using intuition and the other for judging things on a T1 level. I was like lol wut.
June 17, 2014 1:47 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #31
Interjecting this, I actually want to make a point here. First, the power on the card is very high, so the mana cost doesn't surprise me. My issue is, when I think of a card that does something assymetrical like this my mind instantly goes to Cyclonic Rift
An oerloaded rift is 7 mana and honestly, not that hard to do; however, there are a few things that make a big difference other than the 2 less mana. First it removes all non-land permanents; Yes, In Garruks Wake kills them dead (excluding regenerate) it doesn't hit artifacts and enchantments. Secondly is rift is still good at 2 mana. Meaning it's good early as well as late. Thirdly, rift is instant speed, not sorcery. Now given how much mana Nykthos can actually generate, hitting this is not implausible but given rift doesn't see a lot of tier 1 play - I will not expect this to do so.
In other news, I'd like to remind everyone about the tribute minotaur that enjoys cheating out big spells. It's janky as eff, but somebody will try it.
June 17, 2014 1:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #32
Since the Fleecemane Lion
fiasco when I based on an assessment of Fleecemane Lion
said that not only was he not under priced at $8 but I saw him dropping to sub $3 by December, and was aggressively called an idiot and told to shut up. I have learned not to trust this community on playability of cards based on spoilers.
One of the biggest problems is that the community seems to be toxic. Opinions are never politely stated and supported and then civilly rebutted and that rebuttal supported. Instead we have:
"It's trash."
"You're an idiot. We don't know what standard will look like it might not be"
"your an idiot im rarely wrong about spoilers and 9 drops aren't playable"
"ur stoopid deez 9 dropz hav sawed play"
"doze iz permenates retard"
"im telling mommy"
June 17, 2014 1:58 p.m.
As mainly an EDH player (and casual kitchen-table EDH at that side note, must get a kitchen with a table), I can see this being played in Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge or mono-black with the aforementioned Cabal Coffers . EDH as a whole does have some instant/sorcery cheat, although the ones that I can think of (aka ones I use) right now are all reasons NOT to play this (Diluvian Primordial , Jace's Mindseeker , Spelltwine etc. effects).
PS Let's not be ragey guys. This post is my attempt to passively share an opinion (not a strong one), express mild interest in the topic card of this thread, and spread some levity. Sure, intense, precise, and well-evidenced arguments are an important part of this website and help the top players here to develop their decks, knowledge, and skills, but developing the top 1% of players on this site is not my goal for being here, and I'll generally shy away from such intense and/or technical debates, much more so if they become riddled with "ad hominem" attacks, belittling remarks, and patronizing sarcasm.This is a community, one that I particularly like, most of the time, don't hurt it. Sometimes people are factually, provably wrong, sometimes they are expressing opinions, don't punish them in either case, teach them . . . or leave it alone.
June 17, 2014 10:36 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #35
Well this is fascinating, truly. However, ChiefBell is more or less right. Especially considering he sticks to a much more competitive mindset when assessing cards.
But this aside, I too look at this card and shake my head. I'm strictly a Control player. Therefore, aside from counter spells, board wipes are my bread and butter. In Garruk's Wake is everything board wipes shouldn't be. Namely, over costed and useless when you really want them which is generally around T4 or T5. No one is going to want this except for the fringe, and even the fringe players may not want it. This is simply the nature of the card. This card will probably be used in Limited though, but that's because sets like M15 are designed for Limited play where games can go one for longer than average.
@ Gidgetimer I disagree with your assessment to some extent. In my experience the community has been rather helpful, though, no doubt there are those who put their "Captain Superior" pants on and decide to belittle others.
June 22, 2014 1:26 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #36
I'm glad that you haven't run into the toxicity, however on multiple occasions I have tried to contribute to multiple threads and they just devolve into mudslinging and people talking at each other instead of to each other.
And besides using a bit of hyperbole what I wrote was a condensed version of this thread and it would have devolved further if I hadn't mentioned how absurd it was that people were getting so worked up about what most people are agreeing will never see Tier 1 competitive play, the disagreement was about whether or not people would try to make this a thing in FNM.
June 22, 2014 2:58 p.m.
think I have to disagree this is a very good card...... I can actually pull this off on trun 4 to 5 with my standard deck. I do run one on sideboard I dont see much more need for one. Sliver Fever is my standard deck i am running right now!
July 19, 2014 5:27 p.m.
Sorry Linked the wrong Deck I am new to the website if someone could help me I want to make my deck public and been having problems!
My deck:
Sliver Fever Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 7 VIEWSJuly 19, 2014 5:33 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #40
Blasphemous Act is not a 'Im going to win' card, its a 'I hope to win' card. I could present a case for just about every card on that list tbh. Most of them when you play them, you hope to win.Some may increase the chances drastically in shaping the outcome of a given game, thus pushing you that much closer to a win, but they dont 'win you the game' 100% of the time. Door to Nothingness definitely applies because it says 'you win the game' right in its oracle text.
TexasDice thats exactly what I snapped it up for.
July 19, 2014 5:54 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #41
Right now, terrible. After rotation - entirely viable in Green/Black devotion. What, you don't think green devotion won't hit 9mana? Especially since the format is slowing.
This said, we can't know how playable it will be after rotation until after we see Khans. A one sided board wipe will win you the game, unless somehow you have zero board presence.
Again until we know the next set we can't really judge it entirely.
July 20, 2014 10:57 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #42
By the way, I still stand to my initial points of Cyclonic Rift being infinitely better, I just want to point out I can see a deck archetype playing it after rotation.
July 20, 2014 11:01 p.m.
This card is a pretty good fit in my casual Chromanticore deck. It's set up so I can reliably get out Chromanticore and that comes with some incredible fringe benefits.
Basically: if you can afford to bestow a Chromanticore, you can usually afford every other card ever printed. Thus, the deck is a continual rotating fun house of awesome. I threw in Griselbrand in a week or two ago and he comes out 4/5 games I draw him.
Gidgetimer says... #2
I feel as if someone will try to make Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and this a thing in MBD for the 3 months before MBD looses half of their deck. I don't keep up on standard much so IDK if there are enough options that mono-black could recover after rotation though.
June 17, 2014 7:51 a.m.