Indulgent Tormentor vs. Desecration Demon
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 29, 2014, 1:41 p.m. by strateupjee
So before anyone posts the "just have to wait and see" argument, yes, I know that we have NO idea how the meta will evolve when M15 comes out. Really I just want to list some pros and cons of each and see who looks to be the strongest in certain archetypes that we have right now or we can deduce will be played later.
Demon - Standard All-Star
Pros:
Severely undercosted
Little wiggle room, sac a dude or get punched
Resilient to pretty much all burn
Cons:
Absolutely awful against any deck with any cards that can reliably make tokens
A lot of times, it won't get you back to a possible win if you are already behind
Tormentor - Rookie
Pros:
Draws a card unless X
Downsides don't directly affect him
Has very relevant abilities
Cons:
Dies to pretty much all burn style removal (excluding Magma Jet and Shock unless used in multiples)
Costs one more mana for less power and toughness
Gives your opponent a choice of how to interact with him, so maybe a little too much wiggle room
These have been most of the arguing points that I could come up with. What do you guys think?
Some archetypes to evaluate:
B/W Mid-Range
MBD
B/G Devotion
Discard (when M15 is released obviously)
Jund Monsters (maybe??)
strateupjee says... #3
That's what everyone I know said about Big D until MBD came out and he was just what the doctor ordered haha
June 29, 2014 1:45 p.m.
DD gives less choice than this does and dominated a meta that wasn't full of expendable creatures. Remember when he came out with Lingering Souls still in standard - saw no play. The thing is that a lot of the the MBD deck is actually trash - it's only the devotion mechanic that holds it together. A lot of the separate cards are pretty bad. Sort of like affinity in modern. A little bit.
Tormentor gives the opponent not 1 choice - but 2. He also dies to basically everything. He's not even above curve really.
June 29, 2014 1:50 p.m.
Bloodgift Demon saw no play, by the way. It's also a better card.
June 29, 2014 1:53 p.m.
strateupjee says... #6
Oh I know haha, I was one of the people desperately trying to make BGD playable. Though I do want to point out that a lot of the time, MBD wins without Gray Merchant, I have won many games without even seeing one, just because the interactions the cards have are so strong. The only reason I see Tormentor being playable is because if they just don't have the removal for him, he is really, really annoying haha
June 29, 2014 1:56 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #7
I like the tormentor, but I don't think he is good enough to play in standard. he is a limited bomb, and maybe a decent option for commander (not really, but maybe).
June 29, 2014 2:01 p.m.
I think that if MBD is going to survive the rotation, it is going to be Master of the Feast or Herald of Torment that will replace Desecration Demon , if the deck survives at all. The biggest problem that MBD is going to have is the loss of Pack Rat , not the DD. That is the card they will struggle to replace.
June 29, 2014 2:03 p.m.
He is but he comes in turn 5 and swings turn 6. If they can't deal with 3 toughness on turn 6 then I'm not sure what game they're playing, but it's not magic!
June 29, 2014 2:04 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #10
ChiefBell, typically I'd agree with you in terms of giving opponents choices. However, this doesn't really give a choice. It won't ever be what you need it to be, so I suppose you would side this guy out against creatureless control. But otherwise, no matter what, you get upside. It's like Renegade Demon with flying and some upside. I'd take this guy because it doesn't retract from your gameplan in any way
But I would agree that it isn't that great. Its not even above the curve, which was DD's biggest upside. A 4 drop 6/6 can block anything and attack without worry. A 5/3 for 5 is fragile. Without being a great attacker, you play him for his ability. With his ability being what it is (never what you need it to be), it turns out to be a pretty meh card. Strong in limited though.
June 29, 2014 2:06 p.m.
It gives loads of choice. They can let you draw a card if they know that they have removal in hand. Or if they don't want to let you draw then they can pay life if they don't need it or sac a creature if they don't need it. It gives the opponent endless flexibility.
June 29, 2014 2:11 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #12
Well, yeah. But I don't see how any of that is bad. Its only bad when the card is defined by the ability, which it is in this case. If this guy was a 5/5, there's no reason not to play him
June 29, 2014 2:31 p.m.
Without the ability he's a flying 5/3. Which is not good.
June 29, 2014 2:37 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #15
I can't wait to see MBD lose Pack Rat and then promptly disappear forever :)
June 29, 2014 4:39 p.m.
I will go with Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.
That guy has amazing synergy with removal spells (I wonder what color has those, probably green...) and is good even without the search clause mattering once.
June 29, 2014 5:07 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #18
Schuesseled Do they dominate and over saturate the meta?
June 29, 2014 5:33 p.m.
Considering the other 5 drops in the upcoming format are Gray Merchant of Asphodel , Liliana Vess , Doomwake Giant , and Herald of Torment 's bestow, I'm with ChiefBell on this one. There's way too many cards competing for this slot that are better. Even Nightfire Giant (you can check him out here since TappedOut doesn't have M15 loaded up yet), is probably a better choice. Plus, Shadowborn Demon will be legal for a while in the same format until Khans rotates in.
That doesn't even get into the four and six drops.
June 29, 2014 7:01 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #20
trentfaris242 my meta? Dominate yes saturated no. As for the global meta. I have no idea, my point however was that mono black devotion will survive losing pack rat.
June 29, 2014 9:58 p.m.
@Schuesseled: It's not going to survive post-rotation in its current form. MBD is losing Pack Rat , Desecration Demon , Mutavault , Underworld Connections , Lifebane Zombie , and Nightveil Specter . Devour Flesh and Ultimate Price are also key removal cards, and it's losing those as well (although, to be fair, Khans will probably offer replacements). That's over 20 slots in the deck just gone. Surviving without Pack Rat ? No way.
There was Mono-Black Control before Theros with Mutilate and whatnot, but it wasn't anything close Mono-Black Devotion. Yeah, sure, there might be a mono-black deck of some kind. Something like the Mono-Black Aggro we've seen floating around may become more popular.
June 30, 2014 2:23 a.m.
I really want to like Indulgent Tormentor, but that toughness... ugh... that toughness.... The fact that if he stays on the board, he always gives you something. Card advantage is nice. 15% of your opponent's life is not bad, and neither is an edict. And unlike DD your opponent will never just take him out of combat without a removal spell.
I'll pick him up when he's a bulk rare like I did with DD and perhaps he will find a home later... although, unlike DD, he only has one season to live, so he may never find a proper home.
June 30, 2014 10:37 a.m.
EvilKidsMeal says... #23
I play a MBD deck, and yeah this rotation sucks, I tried to get rid the cards that are going away but im not sure if it even turned out good enough to compete against anyone. My replacement for Pack Rat
was Typhoid Rats
. Of course not nearly as good. I've got Mind Rot
in there but its not as good as the other removals /; and my replacement for Desecration Demon
was Squelching Leeches
Not as strong, but you figure you wont always play that card as soon as you have 4 swamps, so basically 5/5 guaranteed for the same cost. Mogis's Marauder
helps as well in the deck as well as Marshmist Titan
which you can basically cast for free when the time comes, imagine dropping 2 of those at the same time for no manna, then playing another strong creature. MBD ain't dead yet sylvannos
September 9, 2014 9:48 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #24
Dude....you are a few months late to the party....go home and pay attention to the dates on threads next time....
ChiefBell says... #2
Cards that give opponents choice are bad cards. Usually.
June 29, 2014 1:44 p.m.