Kamigawa: Gentlemen, we can rebuild him...
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 7, 2014, 3:46 p.m. by Ragnarocker
OK, so Kamigawa came before my time, and as a lore nerd I naturally gravitated towards the overall flavour of the set when I started soaking in information about MTG's ins and outs. But the thing that stood out for me was the set's unpopularity, and how its play mechanics were very criticized. Basically, the Humans vs. Kami concept apparently led to clunky mechanics and an underpowered set. Nevertheless, ever cloud has a silver lining (even Homelands, there's Shade of Ihsahn, named after the vocalist for Emperor ffs :P ).
I for one enjoy the concept of Legendaries. People bitch because it becomes difficult to just spam 4 copies of a legendary card in your deck and boom, you got yourself a deck. Kamigawa required some more judicious deck building as per which legendary you'd choose, how many copies you'd include, so on and so forth. I don't play over-complicated decks, but the brainstorming potential intrigues me (it doesn't please Spike players who just want to spam the most OP cards, but they can just netdeck like they always do). So I'd like to hear some suggestions as to how we could improve and innovate Kamigawa's mechanics to warrant a possible future return for it?
As far as gameplay I'm not yet sure (Bushido and Ninjutsu automatically come to mind as the mechanics that most people can agree on), but as far as storyline, what would you consider? I'm personally seeing a sort of civil war with the power vacuum left after Konda's death and the end of the Kami War, and it would act out in a similar fashion as the events leading up to the Meiji Restoration, with various factions vying for control of the Shogunate. My working names for the set's expansions are "Pretenders of Kamigawa", "Warring States" and "Imperial Restoration".
I agree wholeheartedly with what Carsf said. What I'd like to add to that is, from the perspective of a complete melvin (someone who cares about the mechanics, not the flavour), I don't see a reason in revisiting Kamigawa. Not one of the mechanics is interesting enough to build another block around, and the flavour is so different from normal Magic that to enjoy the block you would almost be forced to focus on the story. I, and probably many others, would rather just play the game and forget that a story exists. As such, a return to Kamigawa would be a horrible experience for my sort of player. It might be in WotC's best interest to build new worlds with exciting stories as well as cool mechanics than to revisit past failures.
March 7, 2014 11:18 p.m.
Having said that, I know a few people who absolutely love Kamigawa, precisely because they focus on the story. While not many people I know dislike the block as much as I do, it seems to be a rare opinion to love the block despite its mechanical issues.
March 7, 2014 11:21 p.m.
Ragnarocker says... #5
A point that was brought up just now and that I forgot to mention was indeed the flavour aspect of the set. Specifically, the "weirdo" factor of some cards, and the jarring effect it had on some players. The thing is, R&D actually did a bang-up job of representing the Kami spirits in a way that is true to actual Japanese folklore, I can't help but admire that effort from the POV of a hardcore Vorthos for whom flavour and storyline stand head and shoulders above game mechanics (I'd rather play a set block with "sweet story/crap mechanics" (i.e. Kamigawa) than one with "interesting mechanics/shit flavour" (Mirrodin, as far as my personal tastes go...too sci-fi)). What surprised me a bit is that I read an interview with one of the devs who was asked why Kamigawa performed poorly, he basically responded something among the lines of how the overall feel of the set was "based on what Japanese mythology actually is like, instead of what most of the playerbase expects it to be". Well my apologies, but most of the playerbase are weeaboos with only a superficial grasp of actual Jap folklore, they were probably expecting catgirls and pantsu shots ffs. Had R&D done something like that, the set might've been more popular :eyeroll: (well at least there's always the astoundingly tastefully-done Walker of Secret Ways, and Ink-Eyes the Hawt Furry).
All in all, I can't say where the loremasters are supposed to draw the line between how much inspiration they draw from RL mythology/folklore vs. how much of it they have to tweak in order to make it more "Magickized"; I mean, we're in the middle of Theros, and a grade schooler could point out that it's based on Ancient Greece and its pantheon of gods and heroes plain as day. They simply didn't call them Zeus and Ares, etc. and brainstormed "Magickized" versions instead. As I'm a Norse folklore fanatic besides being a Japanese folklore fanatic, I would jizz were they to announce a Viking-themed set, with potential gods similar to Odin/Thor/Loki/Hel/Surtr and the like (look at the card Warstorm Surge , LOOK AT IT, and yes I'm aware that the Ice Age storyline drew heavy inspiration from Scandinavia but it didn't actually go balls-to-the-wall with it), but I'm aware that they'd put their own spin on it and not release the R/W Thor, the Thunder God.
March 8, 2014 12:55 a.m.
What's good about Theros is that there is the obvious Greek influence, but then it's also very obviously Magic's flavor as well. The gods aren't just the Greek gods with a color slapped on. They took the flavor of a color or color pair and built the god around it. Due to there being 5 colors and 10 color pairs, we get a large pantheon of gods, which even better fits Greek flavor. Not only that, but even someone who knows only a little about Greek stories, heck, maybe they only know the story about Prometheus giving fire to humans. Woah, man, Titan of Eternal Fire is so close to that story! A titan, giving a red effect (red associated with fire, obviously) to humans! It resonates just right in that it's obviously Greek influenced turned into a Magic element. Kawigama was spot on with Japanese culture. Too spot on. It felt like they were trying much too hard for everything to be extremely Japanese. It doesn't resonate with players. Personally, I know Japan does have the spiritual aspect. I also know of a handful of Japanese monsters. So, let's just assume the majority of the target demographic knows as much as I do. You focus mostly on that. Sure, you can sprinkle in a few things that only hardcore students of Japanese lore would know, but too much (as with Kawigama) and it gets bad.
As far as ezra125's viewpoint, I would disagree with disregarding story and by extension, flavor. It's the fantasy aspect that draws many people in. Not only that, but the ideas the colors of Magic have imbedded in them influence mechanics a lot. Everything in Magic has give and take. If something is complex, older players love it. Newer players are confused. If something is flavorful but weak, lore junkies fall in love while competitive players try to pick out what's good. The list can go on.
Magic is a very complicated game. There are people who love certain mechanics and flavor, and there are people who hate it, and all of that disregarding market research. The thing to remember is that Wizards is out to make money in the long run. Things like Mirrodin and Ravnica (and now Innistrad and Theros) make money. So what do they do? They do it again, or do something similar.
March 8, 2014 7:17 p.m.
To quote Mark Rosewater (Magic's head designer):
"Homelands is my pick for worst designed set. Champions of Kamigawa block is my pick for worst designed block. Champions of Kamigawa is a better designed set than Homelands. Its a pretty low bar though."
March 8, 2014 7:36 p.m.
I personally liked Kamigawa, I remember when I first flirted with Magic was when I bought a Champions of Kamigawa intro pack (the mono white bushido deck). I loved the Bushido and Ninjutsu mechanics, and if Kamigawa was ever going to be revisited (doubtful as that may seen), it would be nice if they focused more on those and leave out the poor mechanics from before. The bad mechanics were a bigger turn off to me than the 'un-magicky' vibe of the lore.A couple of Kamigawa cards have become staples in competitive Modern decks, how many times do you see Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in the top decks in GPs, PTQs etc. for Modern. A whole damn lot!I think Kamigawa gets a bit of an unfair shake, after all, it's no Homelands!
March 8, 2014 8:03 p.m.
What I was trying to get at is the fact that every set has to have mechanics strong enough to warrant the set, rather than just relying on good flavour as the selling point. Magic is, at its core, a game. As such, it needs the game mechanics designed well enough such that it can be played without caring about flavour. Yes, adding the flavour to the mechanics helps enhance the experience. However, going with a story despite poor mechanics would be a horrible choice for a game to take.
If Magic was primarily a story, a return to Kamigawa might be fantastic. There would be plenty to explore, with many interesting characters. However, because that game aspect is crucial for Magic, the story has to support the arguably more important game aspects.
Kamigawa, with its huge focus on story, requires more than a cursory understanding of the story to understand the cards. For example, it is difficult to make sense of so many of Kamigawa's card names without understanding the characters they represent, because they are all so abstract and complicated. This draws away from the gameplay experience for those of us who do not read the lore, creating a poorer game.
As an example of flavour supporting mechanics properly, you could look at Theros. There is a mechanically clear divide between monsters, heroes and gods. This is then explained by the lore, supporting what might otherwise be an arbitrary division between enchantment creatures, targeting, and getting bigger. The fact that these are explained as the gods' presence, the support of heroes from the divine, and the growth of vicious beasts helps delineate why the cards act as they do, but is not necessary to make the mechanics seem cool.
Knowledge of the Greek pantheon or the tasks of Heracles is not necessary to understand Theros. However, knowledge of Japanese folklore, which I sadly do not have, seems necessary to explain the hodgepodge of parasitic mechanics found in Kamigawa.
March 8, 2014 8:12 p.m.
Personally, I loved Kamigawa. But I do still agree that it was poorly designed in regards to the game itself. But I don't see why noone wants to give it another chance. It was Wizard's first attempt at a top-down design and obviously they had to stretch their boundaries. It's because of Kamigawa's failure that Innistrad and Theros were so successful (though personally I love Innistrad but really dislike Theros). I understand people's dislike for the original block, but I think R&D has learned enough that they could make another Kamigawa block successful, and I say give it a chance. Though if they do, they should spend more time designing and less time "drawing inspiration" from Hayao Miyazaki movies (pretty sure that's what Mark Rosewater said they did for a lot of the block's design).
Carsf says... #2
I think the set failed for two reasons: The game is based on magic tropes. Kawigama focused heavily on Japanese lore and such. Too heavily it seems, as many people didn't quite pick things up. Then, the power level was a big dip after the original Mirrodin, which had such a broken metagame that people quit Magic for a long time.
The mechanics of Kawigama are a different story. I believe Bushido is fine, it just needs a different name. (Again, magic tropes. It's too much Japanese influence.) Soulshift was parasitic, as it focused on spirits, which were big in the set. Ninjutsu is cool, but it seems to only be a flavor fit on ninjas, which I wouldn't really say is magic based, it simply fit into the Japanese flavor. The big legendary focus was very klunky, as it made many legends that just didn't feel right as legends. Some were very cool, many were not. Splice and subsequently the arcane subtype are alright, but it again ended up being parasitic, as it was the only set to have arcane, making plenty of splice spells only good with arcane spells which, again, weren't available anywhere else. Finally, the poorest mechanic (in my opinion) was the "flip cards," which, to me, looked very ugly and worked in a somewhat awkward way. Innistrad really fixed flip cards, thank goodness.
That's my take from Kawigama, at least.
My last bit of input is Spikes don't care about cramming powerful cards into a deck. They care about winning, and doing so in a consistent way. That's how the Spike psychographic works. That's why they're attributed with netdecking so much: they play with what they see as the best tool to win with.
March 7, 2014 7:13 p.m.