Khans of Tarkir. Hit or Miss?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Aug. 3, 2014, 7:28 p.m. by spacecoyote1313
This set, flavor wise seems as if it will be very hit or miss. All the information that has been released sounds like they are trying to hard. They are going to have 5 new mechanics and morph, 40 pre-release promo cards. And the whole story line thats getting set up seems very edgy. I'm not going to make any harsh decisions when we still have another month and a half till the set is released and we only have one spoil. But I am afraid this set might be similar to Kamigawa.
CommanderOfBolas says... #3
Well, I would disagree completely. This set was designed for gameplay first, flavor second. As far as the set goes, it will be very welcomed in standard. the mechanics wont necessarily be new mechanics. they could be returning mechanics like unearth. Also, I think the 40 promos is a great idea. I do multiple events and hate getting stuck with more than one of the same promo. this gives me a chance to choose the same clan each time and still get something new.
August 3, 2014 7:37 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #4
I'm actually very excited for the new set. I'm quite tired of gods, enchantments, and devotion. The pre-release thing is interesting, I'm not sure how it will work out. But it will perhaps stop everyone from trying to choose the same few colors just because of one strong prerelease promo, which maybe is what they're going for. It will certainly provide a far greater random element.
I like the whole "clan" setup. I also hope that the set will have some decent stuff for EDH (assuming that each clan has at least one legendary creature at its helm).
I think that comparing it to Kamigawa right off the block is kind of unfair since we know so little.
Morph is umm, well...interesting. I'm not sure what to think about that. 5 new mechanics over a whole block honestly isn't that much. In Theros block we had devotion, constellation, monstrosity, bestow, heroic, strive, and inspired. That's seven, unless I missed one.
August 3, 2014 7:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
WOTC is doing a few things I really don't like. The M15 reminder text change for convoke is just one example. Maybe I'm a little conservative, but I feel that reminder text should be for explaining rules properly, not for holding players' hands and saying "Look, Billy, you can do this."
We have a core set that's trying to baby the new players, but we're immediately going to throw them from that into a block with five new mechanics and morph (which is not the simplest ability for inexperienced players to grasp)? Boo.
It does feel like it could go wrong. I like the idea of a diverse block and wedge support. I hope they execute it properly.
August 3, 2014 7:44 p.m.
spacecoyote1313 says... #6
The only reason I compared it to Kamigawa is because im afraid the set will be bad, like Kamigawa. And like I said, Im not gonna hate the set before we see anything, Im just skeptical. I also agree, im done with the whole god thing and devotion.
August 3, 2014 7:45 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #8
Fair enough. I agree with Epochalyptik about the reminder text. Although to be fair, I suppose core sets are designed with newer players in mind.
August 3, 2014 7:52 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #9
Theros is OK. I think they missed on some of the Greco-Roman flavor opportunities, and Devotion was just Chroma, but...meh.
I definitely agree that Khans could be a big mess-up, but with the introduction of enemy wedges, my hopes remain high.
Definitely agree with Epochalyptik about the goober reminder text in this latest core set. Urrrrrggghh. Don't like it!!!
August 3, 2014 7:53 p.m.
spacecoyote1313 says... #10
Also for note, only Khans of Tarkir will be a wedge set, the block in itself will not be wedge.
August 3, 2014 7:56 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #11
Morph is not an easy ability to grasp. Did some reading on it yesterday and re-learned that you can't respond to the flip of morph. Forgot that little bit of information.
Who the hell knows, they might make easy mechanics for the new ones. I mean nothing could be as bad as if they were to do banding again so /shrug.
August 3, 2014 7:56 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #12
Right. No major wedge theme for the other two sets.
I'm still excited though. But I was excited for Theros too, and that just didn't quite meet my expectations. But it wasn't awful.
August 3, 2014 7:59 p.m.
I started right as M14 was released, and looking back, I really wish I'd been around to immerse myself into RTR. I really hope the clans in Tarkir are similar to the guilds of Ravnica in both flavor and interesting mechanics. Mechanics-wise, Theros was so bland. The only thing I really enjoyed in the Theros block was bestow (Please don't lynch me!). I agree... Please, nothing stupid like Ninjutsu, flip cards, or the entire race of moonfolk. :P
August 3, 2014 8 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #14
I'm kinda disappointed that with the Mongolian/Hun thing they have going on that they didn't bring back Horsemanship and Flanking. Both would have made sense IMHO.
August 3, 2014 8:05 p.m.
Ohthenoises, has it been confirmed that they aren't bringing horsemanship back?
August 3, 2014 8:11 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #16
Mongols have the potential to be really interesting. Theros was largely a misfire with respect to both flavor and mechanics. But with wedges, I really really really hope that they can't mess up too horribly.
August 3, 2014 8:14 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
Defpotec No but they did mention that there was going to be 5 new mechanics. I doubt they would have 7 mechanics in a single set.
August 3, 2014 8:19 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #18
Theros block had devotion (not strictly new), bestow, inspired, constellation, tribute, and heroic. I don't think I missed anything, but that's 6 mechanics.
August 3, 2014 8:25 p.m.
that doesn't mean they can't bring it back in the other sets
August 3, 2014 8:29 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #20
JakeHarlow I said "set" not "block" but you missed scry.
Who knows for sure but it's doubtful that they would put that many mechanics in a set with 5 new ones already.
August 3, 2014 8:29 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #21
Oh yes, sorry Ohthenoises. You said "set."
Scry counts too for the Theros block, but it wasn't a new mechanic.
August 3, 2014 8:36 p.m.
It's hard to say the storyline is "edgy" considering we don't know what the story is yet. Since KTK is being designed with gameplay as the priority over flavor, I'm hopeful. I think it's too early to be speculating how successful KTK will be.
August 3, 2014 8:58 p.m.
I think the amount of mechanics will be fine, I just hope they're all good. I'm not hugely in favor of morph as the starting mechanic though.
August 3, 2014 9:02 p.m.
We've seen one card, zero new mechanics, and a bunch of art from Khans and people are already bashing it? Seriously people? If you put your expectations that high the only thing that will satisfy you is reprinting the Power Nine. I for one am excited about Khans of Tarkir and am looking forward to seeing what they'll do with the wedge theme and Morph.
And to those of you complaining about reminder text I'll direct you here.
August 3, 2014 9:15 p.m.
NerdPounder says... #25
Why the heck did they decide bringing morph back was a good idea? Maybe they'll do something to make it not quite as sucky
August 3, 2014 9:17 p.m.
Ohthenoises - The point is not to be a hindrance to other people getting into something you like. Because no one likes a guy who acts elitist about a hobby, fandom, topic, etc.
August 3, 2014 9:26 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #29
JWiley129 Oooooook. I don't even want to know how you stumbled upon that.
August 3, 2014 9:27 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #30
Rhinowarrior: oh good catch dude. Totally forgot about monstrosity!
August 3, 2014 9:40 p.m.
Rhinowarrior says... #32
I dont't know why everybody hated theros? someone enlighten me? It was my first set playing so maybe the newb in me has just not been exposed to different sets...
August 3, 2014 9:53 p.m.
40 promos? So excited! I collect promos and the fact there is going to be 40 makes it harder for me to collect them but easier for me to get different ones.
August 3, 2014 10:16 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #34
@Rhinowarrior: Ok....so theros. basically, it wasn't a bad set. what makes it bad is the fact that RTR and innistrad blocks were so damn strong. The only major problem was that it was a flavor based set, so the gameplay is rather weak. There isn't anything in theros that is particularly strong in 60 card constructed formats. Courser of Kruphix is pretty much the only card that sees play in a format other than standard. so when people say theros is bad, they don't just mean in standard.
August 3, 2014 10:18 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #36
Why I hate Theros:
We just came off possibly one of the best and most interesting versions of Standard in memory with RtR/Inn. The meta was both stable and had all sorts of cool stuff that you could do (Junk Rites, Jund, Esper or U/W/R control, U/W/R Flash, RDW). Theros seemed... weak and didn't really seem to mesh well with RtR except in certain circumstances (namely the three most played decks in the meta, comprising almost 40% of the Standard game, Mono U, Mono B and U/W control). Theros basically made us pick between Pack Rat, Elspeth, Thassa or losing for the better portion of the season.
While Theros brought the general power level of cards down, it introduced a new mechanic that proved to be the strongest mechanic throughout Standard (Devotion). The mechanic itself is so strong that Mono U control was still a prominent deck in PT M15 using a relatively un-altered list from the original that ran rampant in PT Theros.
Mana fixing was actively horrible. Just now people are getting comfortable with having a solid two color deck, not just one color while splashing another. Is scrying strong? Sometimes. Is it strong when your main way of winning is beating your opponent in the face? Well, not being able to cast a 2 drop on turn 2 and having to wait til turn 3 even though I played a second land seems horrible.
There are maybe a whole total of two or three cards that will see niche play outside of Standard in actual formats (EDH doesn't count). You can file this under "shitty card power level." (Thoughtseize is a reprint and does not count.) Cards just don't seem to be relevant outside of the current Standard environment.
Playing Standard should not feel like you're compromising on a lesser format after playing Legacy or Modern. It should be equally as interesting (that's not saying the same power level). Frankly, running into all Mono U and Mono B with an occasional U/W Control or Jund Monsters deck thrown in if people got frisky just never cut it.
On the bright side:
We didn't get the Black Summer, Caw Blade, Affinity or Combo Winter again.
Theros limited has been pretty fun.
There was a lot of flavor (whether you enjoyed it or not).
August 3, 2014 10:43 p.m.
Wait. People actually care about story and lore as much as playing Magic?
I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm sure Alara looked ridiculous before it came out, too.
August 3, 2014 11:04 p.m.
CaptainCaveman says... #38
sorry that wasn't much of an explanation , upon reading the other posts here that make mention of Theros mechanics, i did not see strive listed , so i did ..... ummmm
Anyways, i remember playing when morph first came out as a mechanic and i often just avoided playing those cards if at all able. Not a mechanic i liked very much. Hopefully the other 5 will be pretty cool. Other than that am looking forward to KTK.
August 3, 2014 11:07 p.m.
@Rhinowarrior the reason so many people hate on Theros so much is they compare it to the standard format during Innistrad-RTR. People really enjoyed the power of the cards in the Innistrad-RTR blocks. It was a format where powerful midrange decks were tops and we got reprints of cards that were already very popular (the shock lands) along with some newer powerful stuff like Liliana of the Veil
and Abrupt Decay
. Theros was a very top down flavor oriented set and with the release of Theros wizards announced that they wanted to slow the format down some. That meant a big change to the standard meta, which is what wizards wanted. Being focused more on flavor and slowing the format down than mechanics meant a drop in the overall power of cards. Despite the fact that Wizards announced that they were trying to slow the format down and bring a focus on mono colored decks, people let their expectations get rather high. So people were disappointed that we didn't get a ton of super powerful cards that are good in every format and it's also why you see so many people complain that the format is slow and stale (compared to the previous standard it is slow, but thats what wizards wanted). What most people don't realize though is that things like the Theros block are a necessity to keep the game the success that it is. If every set were to continuously grow in power then, by now, each new set would be filled with cards more powerful than the power 9. This power creep essentially leads to any older cards being useless and only decks containing the newest cards succeeding (not what wizards wants). Just ask anyone who used to play Yu gi oh about this. I didn't play, but I've heard from quite a few people that this is what eventually ruined that game.
As for the new set and the original topic. I just suggest that people temper their expectations. Pay attention to the things Wizards puts out prior to the release and model your expectations based on what they say they are trying to do, not what you want. Despite all the people you see saying, "Theros sucks", Theros as block was successful when you take into account what wizards said they were trying to accomplish and flavor wise.
also sorry if this seems like a delayed response, apparently I typed this out and clicked preview but never clicked post before walking away.
August 3, 2014 11:16 p.m.
brokendwarf says... #41
What I'm looking forward to in Khans is (hopefully) more wedge-colored commanders, specifically Abzan (Junk). I don't want to play Doran, Teneb, Ghave, or Karador.
August 4, 2014 12:20 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #42
@ abenz419 and fluffybunnypants:
Very well-said, guys. I especially agree with the gameplay-centric observation that RTR-THS Standard didn't seem as well-knit as INN-RTR. It simply didn't. The power level and game pace were both higher and faster.
Though, I'll say this. THS was a largely successful block for what it was intended to accomplish. As a set built from a flavor perspective, it stumbled a bit, but I think overall it was strong. However, with INN, a set that was also built with a flavor-first philosophy, we got a set that that delivered both amazing flavor as well as gameplay. There were plenty of flavorful, playable cards that were relevant in many formats. With the glorious success of INN ringing in our ears, THS might have seemed underwhelming, despite the fact that it was pretty ok.
August 4, 2014 1:02 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #43
JWiley129- I'll reiterate a point I have made before about the new convoke reminder text. The problem that people who don't like it have isn't that they want everything to be complex or obtuse. It is that the reminder text doesn't do what reminder text is intended to do. It doesn't convey the mechanic in as clear and concise a way as possible. They added an entire line of superfluous text before actually beginning to explain the mechanic. Reminder text is not memory aid text. It is supposed to make the mechanic easier to play by telling you what it does right on the card. It isn't supposed to help you remember by treating you like you are 8.
Even though I disagree with you on whether or not the linked video is relevant to this topic, I do like LRR as well and applaud your taste in videos.
August 4, 2014 1:04 a.m.
Rob_the_Taavi says... #44
I bet that this new set will make some of the people who bought a lot of Kamigawa very happy! ;-D
August 4, 2014 1:37 a.m.
biggestmtgnerd says... #45
Why do people hate kamigawa? Yes, I realize that it had too many legendary creatures and uber-powerful cards (gifts ungiven, kiki jiki, divining top), but at least they had spirits!!! GO SPIRITS!!!!
August 4, 2014 6:28 a.m.
quesobueno123 says... #46
I'm really excited for the new set I love dega burn in modern and maybe burn players will get new dega burn cards.
August 4, 2014 8:24 a.m.
@JakeHarlow The fact that they were trying to slow things down a little and focus on mono-colored decks with Theros is probably the biggest reason we saw an overall reduction in card power. That's probably the biggest difference between Innistrad and Theros as well and would help explain why we still saw some fairly powerful cards in Innistrad but not so much in Theros even though they were both top down flavor oriented sets. Think about the other formats or a moment, what's going to have a bigger impact in those.... a multicolor set designed to work with the power of RTR, or a mono colored set designed to slow things down. It's tough to find good cards for a fast format like modern in a set that is designed to be slower.than most.
August 4, 2014 10:19 a.m.
Every once in a while, you have to 'reset' to stop power creep. Theros was it. Something big is happening on the third set of Tarkir.
August 4, 2014 10:31 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #49
Something huge HAS o happen because we're swapping from a mono colored expansion to a wedge oriented first set.
August 4, 2014 10:36 a.m.
New Wedge Commnders = HYPE
New mechanics = HYPE
Possible Dragon based set = HYPE
Time travel story = Miss.
I never get into time travel stories, it makes everything confusing if it isn't done right.
I did'nt like Theros' mechanics. Honestly, I would compare Theros more to Kamigawa based on how stale the mechanics are, devotion was the only interesting one. I stopped pkaying standard because I could only stand turn 1 Thoughtseize so many times in one night.
Don't get me wrong, I love all of the gods. The story was very cool in my opinion, but the playing was... Yeah.
I think comparing Tarkir to Kamigawa is Avery hastey assumption. Yeah, the idea is based off if similar, but not the same, cultures doesn't mean we get Kamigawa 2.0.
As far as all the info we have of Tarkir, I'm hyped for it. Glad to see wedges finally getting some love.
Also sorry for grammar mistakes, it is very difficult to fix typos on my phone.
VampireArmy says... #2
Plz no....not that again...anything but that
August 3, 2014 7:33 p.m.