Khans of Tarkir. Hit or Miss?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Aug. 3, 2014, 7:28 p.m. by spacecoyote1313
This set, flavor wise seems as if it will be very hit or miss. All the information that has been released sounds like they are trying to hard. They are going to have 5 new mechanics and morph, 40 pre-release promo cards. And the whole story line thats getting set up seems very edgy. I'm not going to make any harsh decisions when we still have another month and a half till the set is released and we only have one spoil. But I am afraid this set might be similar to Kamigawa.
Ohthenoises says... #2
I love some of the new wording. Turn to Frog was confusing before for some players. With the new term "base" added it really helps from a rules standpoint. Now I don't have to get out my layers sheet to show people what happens.
August 4, 2014 7:57 p.m.
Kamigawa's gameplay was all over the place. It ran the gamut of stale, confusing and insanely OP. But its flavor was incredible. If the Tarkir block can give us that level of depth in the flavor then I have high hopes for it.
Besides, Wizards has learned their lesson on confusion... sort of... now instead of confusing everyone with tons of gameplay mechanics like splice they release a card like Mercurial Pretender and get all of us scratching our heads over it.
August 6, 2014 12:25 a.m.
Nebulousone says... #4
There are rumors that FTV: Annihilation will reprint Rolling Earthquake , a card which makes sense to print if they're bringing back horsemanship....I'm not sure if that's confirmed yet, though.
http://www.magicspoiler.com/ftv-annihilation-spoiler/
August 7, 2014 12:49 a.m.
@Nebulousone: It was announced at the MTG panel a couple weeks back. It isn't a rumor, it comes directly from the source.
Also, they've been reprinting a whole bunch of Portal 3 Kingdoms cards recently in the FTV sets and Commander precons. If they're going to print an FTV about boardwipes, this is a logical card to include given their past trend.
They are not bringing horsemanship back in Khans, nor in any other way apart from reprinting the existing horsemanship cards in supplemental products.
August 7, 2014 1:41 a.m.
@Nebulousone: Like Drilnoth said, they mentioned Rolling Earthquake at the SDCC Magic Panel, the guy said they were printing stuff like this to allow people to get their hands on hard to find cards.
People keep saying Damnation will be reprinted in Khans because it's not in the new FTV, personally I think it's much more likely we see it in the new commander decks or the summer special set. We already have a set of "wrath" effects in Theros and M15 in various forms, albeit not very good ones, but Damnation doesn't make a lot of sense flavor wise unless something crazy goes down.
I'm just excited to see how the new block unfolds, it's either going to be extremely epic or a complete flop in my opinion. Lot's of great potential in the set and I look forward to the new drafting format. I never played with morph and looking at the older cards, and what they've said about it being related to draconic magic on Tarkir makes me think that they'll do something more exciting and inventive with the mechanic. Even if Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow will dominate over them!
August 7, 2014 4:43 a.m.
@Maltanis doesn't matter how many morph creatures you have on the board face down, Bile Blight will only kill the one it targets because they have no name and Bile Blight hits whatever it targets and all other creatures with the SAME name. Can't have the same name if they don't have a name at all lol.
August 7, 2014 10:06 a.m.
Damnation being in the black commander precon set is definitely a strong possibility. I'd be a bit disappointed as that's a card I'd really like to play with. If it shows up there, it seems unlikely they have it planned for any new set on the horizon
I think they'd need to make at least one playable wrath in the upcoming block.
August 7, 2014 10:18 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Kamigawa's flavor problems were mostly due to issues of accessibility and resonance. Creative dug super deep on several things to root the world (and many individual card designs) in real-world Japanese mythology and tradition, but for a big chunk of the audience (i.e., the West) that meant there was very little prior knowledge to activate and very few intuitive connections to be made with the material. So far it seems that Khans has taken the lessons learned over the years, and though the visual design and certain fantasy elements of the set owe strongly to Central, South, and Southeast Asian traditions, it's still a uniquely Magic: the Gathering flavor design.
If you already know how a mechanic works, you don't need the reminder text. The new Convoke reminder text is for people who don't already understand it, and I think it's great.
August 7, 2014 11:40 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
I remember getting my first Saviors of Kamigawa starter deck. The flavour for it is what brought me into the game. It felt sooo good to play. My moonfolk starter deck felt EVEN BETTER when I came back to it in Zendikar. Why? Moonfolks returned lands to your hand. Zendikar has landfall. It was so awesome to do land combos at the casual kitchen table turn after turn after turn to get the advantage over your opponent.
Because of the flavour, I feel that Kamigawa is better than Theros. Theros falls in its flavour because it focuses far too much on the Nyx and strays what would be a very interesting flavour line. And if we considered cross format uses, Kamigawa wins again over Theros. Theros has one card, maybe two with Swan Song in legacy. Right off the bat I know Kamigawa has three in modern with Gifts Ungiven , Goryo's Vengeance and Boseiju, Who Shelters All . The last two I'm pretty sure see legacy play as well.
Going through my deck-lists and modern sideboard staples, here are the other kamigawas and theros that I know of, even the fringe ones. It is a simple example that Kamigawa did provide much more than Theros has currently provided so far.
- Athreos, God of Passage
- Anger of the Gods
- Courser of Kruphix
- Erebos, God of the Dead
- Fade into Antiquity
- Godsend
- Mana Confluence
- Revoke Existence
- Swan Song
- Sylvan Caryatid
- Thoughtseize
- Azami, Lady of Scrolls
- Azusa, Lost but Seeking
- Blazing Shoal
- Desperate Ritual
- Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
- Eternal Dominion
- Flames of the Blood Hand
- Forbidden Orchard
- Freed from the Real
- Ghostly Prison
- Glimpse of Nature
- Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda
- Kataki, War's Wage
- Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
- Kokusho, the Evening Star
- Lava Spike
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Sowing Salt
- Sway of the Stars
- That Which Was Taken
- Threads of Disloyalty
- Through the Breach
- Time of Need
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Uyo, Silent Prophet
Beyond me listing stuff, I don't think I'll like Khans of Tarkir. Why? I hate the names they put down so far already. It just feels as if they jumbled a bunch of syllables together and hope something good comes out, without actually going through the names and seeing if they have a "proper feel" to them.
August 9, 2014 11:29 a.m.
The only basis that you think Tarkir is Kamigawa is because of the similar art work. Even though Kamigawa was built with lore first and Tarkir is built with mechanics first. But lets ignore everything and make rapid assumptions.
Also, what is with everyone's obsession with Damnation ? Everyone keeps saying it'll get reprinted in every release since Theros set and yet it never does.
August 9, 2014 5:49 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #13
Damnation is an awesome card in every format and it's arguably the best board clearer available for black. Most people want a reprint so that the price will drop.
August 9, 2014 6:48 p.m.
@Gienah: Same reason people are always complaining about fetches (really guys... the first few times its commenting, but it got to being "complaining" about a year ago...). They just want a reprint because it is rather expensive, very useful in Modern (I think? Maybe it is some other format), and (possibly) because the only printings are the promo full art and the "colorshifted" one with the strange frame.
Realistically, Wizards is extremely unlikely to reprint it in a standard-legal set. Why? Because black's board sweepers are rarely that efficient (that's white's thing), and because the clause "can't be regenerated" doesn't often get used on removal spells anymore, because it made regeneration a largely useless ability.
Hold out hope for Commander precons and the Summer "casual"/Modern Masters slot instead.
August 9, 2014 6:52 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #15
Fetches are one of THE most used lands. Just to get a good land base in a modern tri-colour probably sets you back some $400.
In legacy they are used as well. People in legacy (and maybe vintage) who can't pay for the $50-$200 PER LAND of the alpha/beta duals generally go back to the fetch shock combo.
August 9, 2014 8:25 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #16
Even those that play the original dual lands still play around 8 fetches in their decks. they are really good. some decks don't really need them, but the value of color fixng, deck thinning, and shuffling effects are what makes them so great.
August 9, 2014 8:53 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #17
You also have to consider that a land goes into the graveyard, and that two lands enter the battlefield that turn. A Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle deck LOVES lots of fetch lands. A Knight of the Reliquary claims her turf on fetch lands. Little ol' Tarmogoyf absolutely adores them. Grim Lavamancer turns his frown upside down with fetches. Lotus Cobra and the landfall crew love to slither their way through fetch lands.
So fetches hold their own in mono-coloured decks to, either for their graveyard, landfall, or shuffle mechanics. In a "competitive casual " game with a mono-blue one mana blister draw deck (Coil and Spring, the fetches are really powerful when it comes to deck-thinning, shuffling and helping Visions of Beyond proc. In a RDW deck, fetches power up the Grim Lavamancer to a great extent. In my mono-green squirrel deck Essence of the Squirrel, the shuffle is really important with Sylvan Library . When fetches came in Zendikar, they really changed the competitive value of modern, and made vintage and legacy that much more consistent.
August 9, 2014 9:10 p.m.
I understand that Damnation is a good card, but reprinting it in standard where black already has Thoughtseize , Bile Blight , and Drown in Sorrow makes no sense. Black is powerful as it is right now, it doesn't need a third board wipe. We'll get a board wipe in Tarkir, but it won't be Damnation .
I would like to see fetch lands so I can make a modern deck without flushing my savings. I don't really care when/if they reprint them. The fact that fetch lands are what keep people from playing a certain format is kind of bad.
August 9, 2014 11:15 p.m.
a fetch land reprint doesn't not mean you'll be able to pick them up for cheap (with the exception of opening one in a pack). Think about how many people a day say, "i want a fetch land reprint". Demand will be so high for them that they'll have an extremely high pre order price. Think about it, Elspeth and Nissa both started at $50, and those were based on speculation. Everyone already knows how good fetches are and even if they're less useful in standard because they'll only be printed at a time when shocks are not standard legal they're still going to be picked up immediately. A reprint will put more in circulation but demand is going to be too high, especially since people will pick them up just for monetary value, for it to greatly affect their prices.
August 10, 2014 12:14 a.m.
Demand will remain high for fetches once they're reprinted in a new Standard set, but they'll certainly be more affordable. Let's take Mutavault as an example; it's played in every deck that can possibly fit it, and that topped out around $35 (TCGplayer average). The various fetches will be much more diffused than that, and more KTK packs will be opened than M14. I'd expect them to settle into the $8-15 range, similar to the shocks after their RTR reprint.
August 10, 2014 11 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #21
Lol @ this Damnation thing...
Just because a card is highly desired and/or considered great in some format doesn't mean it will see a reprint.
Using this sort of logic, I could predict my winning of a lottery based solely on my need for currency next year.
sigh
August 10, 2014 11:35 a.m.
HAHA, that would be nice, it's just wishful thinking though. Comparing them to cards (Mutavault and shocks) that never reached the price fetches are currently at and then saying "see these weren't that expensive" doesn't work. More affordable would be more like a $50 price tag, compared to $80. Also, mutavault sees play in tons of standard decks but is seeing less and less play in modern because of the high number of 3 colored decks that are going around. Their mana base can't afford to have the colorless mana even with Mutavault being as good as it is. So while Mutavault will retain value because it's definitely modern playable, the $35 price tag is almost completely held up by it's standard use. I guarantee that you will not be able to say the same for a fetch land reprint. Every standard player will be after them since it'll most likely be the primary form of mana fixing during that rotation and every modern player will still be after them. Even players who already have play sets of every fetch will be picking them up because of the demand that they create and the value they'll get later in trades or sales. Maybe around the 4th reprint there will be enough in circulation that they'll be in the $8-$15 range, but most definitely not after the first.
August 10, 2014 11:39 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #23
Correction, a more affordable price range if fetches were to go into standard would be ranging from $20-$50. Arid Mesa is currently sitting at $35, whereas Scalding Tarn is around $70. But that isn't considering the onslaught fetches. Personally, I am unsure of what would happen if those got reprinted. On one hand I think they would help lower the cost of the Zendikar fetches, because now everyone will be swapping those for the onslaught reprints. On the other, I really don't like to think that modern could become on average, a turn faster. I don't want to see turn 2-3 wins becoming consistent in modern.
August 10, 2014 12:25 p.m.
Hasn't modern grown significantly since reprinting the shocks? They really didn't have the opportunity to see massive price spikes. Scalding Tarn was a $33 card in March 2013, for example (earliest I can go back on TCG).
Yes, Mutavault 's price is sustained by it being a staple in just about every Standard deck. Fetches will not have the same pressure; they'll be played in every deck, but the same one will not fit into each. KTK will see massive sales if fetches are announced, and it will be drafted heavily as the first set of the block.
The shocks seem like a much better point of comparison than first printing of planeswalkers at a higher rarity.
August 10, 2014 12:57 p.m.
I was referring to the hyped up pre-order price in that comparison. There is no way that when fetches finally get a reprint that you'll be able to pre-order them for anything less than a few bucks lower than what they go for now. Then when the set is released it's not like the market is going to suddenly be flooded with fetches and they're gonna see a huge drop in price. Almost the opposite will happen. The supply will slowly grow as more and more packs of that set are opened, yes, but they'll be picked up by people as soon as they're out of the pack in and shop cases. The market will never be flooded with them because people know how valuable they are and will scoop them up whenever possible. Every single player, collector, and price speculator will be after them. Demand is just going to be too great for a significant price drop during their time in standard (if that's where they're even printed), They're going to definitely see standard play and their use in modern isn't going to suddenly drop. If a card like Elspeth, Sun's Champion can maintain her $25-$30 price tag just from standard play alone, then there is no reason to think cards like the fetch lands (which will see tons of play in multiple formats) will see a big price drop just because they get printed in a standard playable set. These aren't cards that people will get their play set of and then move on. People will be picking up every single one that they can. It's going to be much more difficult to get ahold of these than you seem to think.
August 10, 2014 5:29 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #26
I can't wait to pick up a modern legal playset of Polluted Delta .
Mutavault doesn't see much play in modern because there are generally better choices available for manlands. My favorite being Treetop Village which costs less for a playset than a single Mutavault .
Fetches make even mono-colored decks strong as u can literally splash for things by including a single Godless Shrine or Watery Grave and consistently get it. Need that Erase on the SB for Leyline of Sanctity , fetches can make it happen.
August 10, 2014 9:05 p.m.
A couple of things. Firstly, Gienah the kamigawa thing I said before was a joke. Secondly: There are quite a lot of pieces of art that look to fit the fetches in KTK. 
Misty Rainforest
Verdant Catacombs
Arid Mesa
Scalding Tarn
I'm yet to see a piece that looks like marsh flats, but these look promising to fetch-lovers. I personally don't care if a reprint happens. I have 2 tarns, a misty, a mesa and a catacombs. I don't have enough to get into modern, so a reprint would be nice, but I'd lose quite a bit of value. The tradeoff is decent i reckon, and older prints are often more expensive anyway.
August 15, 2014 6:28 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #28
You know what I expect more? minifetches. Like ... 
: Search your library for a plains card and put onto the battlefield.
August 16, 2014 12:50 a.m.
With a land so steeped in tradition, I doubt they'll do anything with fetching... I'm sure they'll have interesting lands, but the reason that Zendikar, for example, got such great land based cards was because the block was very much involved in the land of Zendikar. I'd be willing to bet we get more mechanics like exalted and battalion to reflect the tribal nature of the people of Tarkir.
But who knows, they do claim mechanics came first, so anything is possible.
August 16, 2014 1:02 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #30
I kind of want bolt lands... like shocklands but for three colours and it deals 3 to enter untapped... What... I'm sane okay. Yeah I know, this won't happen but I think there's more chance of it than fetch lands being reprinted in Khans.
August 16, 2014 1:31 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #31
I think that would be more like ... flame lands. 4 damage would be more fair, as they added 2 damage for having 2 colours. So adding 2 more damage to that for another colour would make sense.
August 16, 2014 3:31 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #32
4 would probably be too steep on the playability though.
August 16, 2014 1:13 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #33
Yeah literally no one (except maybe suicide black) would play lands that took off a fifth of your life total (or a tenth in edh) just to ETB untapped.
August 21, 2014 9:18 a.m.
As an EDH player I have high hopes for this set. I want to think it'll give me some new stuff to mess around with. I've taken a break from playing since the SoM block, so I can't compare on a standard level.
August 23, 2014 9:09 a.m.
One thing I noticed in the new Mardu clan leader is the potential to have a pattern in all the leaders. Its first ability is haste, representing the clan's symbol of speed. I attacks each turn if able, which is a red-style ability, indestructable on your turn, which is a white style ability, and get a counter when it kills a creature, a black style ability. So it has an ability for each color plus a core ability representing its clan. Not sure if this was already obvious to most of you, but I thought it might be cool if this was continued in the other Khans.
August 27, 2014 8:56 p.m.
Cynergy, I can see them doing a similar style for all the Khans like you said. They need to feel like they bring in the aspects from all 3 colours as we'll as having the main colour of the Clan being forefront.Haste is a very Red ability, so I could see something like this for each of the Khans
Abzan : First StrikeSultai : DeathtouchTemur : TrampleJeskai : Flying? (Blue has a distinct lack of "base" abilities)
Hopefully they will be as flavourful and fun as the Gods from Theros.I'm looking forward to combining Mogis, Athroes and Zurgo together :P
Drilnoth says... #1
People still notice the new convoke reminder text? Ignoring for a moment that I think it is a good change, once I know an ability the reminder text just kind of vanishes from my reading of cards. What does that line matter if the players who already know the mechanic don't read it anyway?
Regardless, I really don't think it is superflous. This game is incredibly difficult to learn and that one line makes the mechanic much easier for new players to comprehend, even if it has no basis whatsoever in actual rules meaning. Take a convoke card, remove the first bit of reminder text, and have it be in one of a player's first four games. They've never seen convoke before. They don't know the difference between lands and mana. That line helps.
Anyways, that's straying off topic. Just wanted to say it since there were some posts about it earlier in the thread and that complaint has bugged me ever since the new reminder text was first shown.
August 4, 2014 6:36 p.m.