KtK removal Breakdown
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Sept. 12, 2014, 2:47 p.m. by Rayenous
List of cards which can remove creatures from the battlefield by themselves (i.e.: Not "Combat tricks")
MANY are very situational and/or inefficient... but they can sometimes be exactly what is needed.
"Destroy":
- End Hostilities
- Kill Shot - Smite the Monstrous
- Murderous Cut
- Rite of the Serpent
- Duneblast
- Sultai Charm
.
"Exile": - Suspension Field
- card:Abzan Charm - Utter End
.
"Damage": (any targeted damage... even a single point, as it could possibly remove a creature)
- Arrow Storm - Bring Low - card:Burn Away - Crater's Claws
- Mardu Heart-Piercer
- Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
- Scaldkin - Jeskai Charm
- Mardu Charm
- Winterflame
- Heart-Piercer Bow
.
"Fight": (Technically need another cards to work, but I feel they are relevant.) - Swift Kick - Savage Punch
- Temur Charm
.
"Bounce": - Force Away - Thousand Winds
- Waterwhirl - Icefeather Aven
.
"Top of Library": - Set Adrift - Jeskai Charm
- Duplicate, as it also falls under "Damage".
.
"-X/-X Effects": (Technically these both need other cards to work, but I feel they are relevant... for some Limited decks) - Necropolis Fiend
- Retribution of the Ancients - Duplicate, as it also falls under 'Damage".
What about Ride Down, to destroy target Blocking creature?
September 12, 2014 3 p.m.
Just noticing that Jeskai Charm is damage to player only... strike it from the 'Damage" list.
September 12, 2014 3:01 p.m.
@JWiley129
I didn't include any Combat Tricks... that one is close, but it relies on your opponent blocking, so I didn't include it.
September 12, 2014 3:03 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #8
That seems like more than enough removal to me.... I've had enough of dealing with people killing my creatures outside if combat...
September 12, 2014 3:14 p.m.
This will be such a herp derp scrubby standard season.
September 12, 2014 3:43 p.m.
omnipotato says... #10
Erase is pretty good considering a lot of creatures in Theros block are enchantments
September 12, 2014 3:51 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #11
ChiefBell I'm not really sure what you're taking about. You keep making these claims about how we're for sure doomed to all be midrange and blah blah blah, but have yet to give a reasonable statement other than essentially "oh no, doom blade doesn't exist anymore"... Last standard I checked, there was a deck that played 12 2 drop removal spells and midrange decks still existed, but so did aggro and control. I'm not certain your concerns have weight...
September 12, 2014 4:25 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #12
Also I'm pretty sure cheap removal benefits midrange the most as they can afford to play it
September 12, 2014 4:27 p.m.
Is mono-midrange really a bad format anyway? I mean, that still leaves a fair bit of room for a control deck, and while most aggro is shut out, hyper-aggro can still make quite a killing. Also, there's space for a LOT of different midrange variations as of right now.
September 12, 2014 4:36 p.m.
Cheap removal makes midrange weaker because the decks playing the control role out-tempo the decks playing the midrange role. If you imagine a deck packing lots of 3 mana and 4 mana creatures, playing against a deck playing lots of 2 mana killspells you have a situation where the control deck can overtake the tempo of the midrange deck. Eventually this makes it likely that the control deck can stand some chance of shutting them down and having an interesting game. However if the control deck only has high mana options then their tempo is lowered, they can react to threats only slowly and ultimately are less successful. Control decks need to maintain some tempo advantage over creature decks or they just lose eventually. That's because if they don't have high tempo they can't afford to play a killspell/counterspell AND then draw cards or play a small creature all in the same turn. This makes it favourable to play a more boring deck where you just play 4 mana creatures until something hits the board and stays there.
Last standard season the biggest creature based deck was one that the most popular killspell didn't hit. The other most popular creature deck spat out tokens, rendering your average killspell somewhat useless. It was adaptational. The other decks such as Orzhov control and Jund walkers were essentially played as control decks. Which is fine. You had some nice killspells, and burn. You had some nice creature decks. Lack of variety in the TYPES of creature deck but you had two big types represented.
With the loss of our cheap removal the balance of power shifts in favour of those who play creatures - which just makes the game really dull. Taking power away from those that want to play mainly spells isn't necessarily a good thing, it just narrows the meta. Sure it was pretty narrow already, but for a different set of reasons (im referring to mono black dominance in the creature-based deck world).
Essentially - fewer low cost killspells means you can get away with playing slower, creature based decks. The control decks do a lot worse in general. It just makes things a bit boring because there's a lack of variety.
September 12, 2014 4:39 p.m.
Creature based aggro versus creature based midrange is more boring than creature based aggro versus creature based midrange versus control.
September 12, 2014 4:43 p.m.
I'm not denying that the format is slowing down, I just think that sounds like a nice change of pace.
September 12, 2014 4:43 p.m.
I don't mind it slowing down - but I think that you shouldn't shut decent tempo/control decks out of the equation. Adding cheap killspells actually doesnt speed the format because it helps the slow decks.
In fact in a slower format thats where things get really interesting because it opens it up for the possibility for fringe aggro, midrange and control decks to all prosper.
September 12, 2014 4:48 p.m.
Fair enough, I'll miss a large control representation as much as the next guy. I just can't help but love grindy midrange vs. midrange MUs, so it causes me to gloss over the flaws in a format.
September 12, 2014 4:54 p.m.
I'm with ChiefBell on this one. I don't like the trend of weakening removal (or the other noncreature based strategies), and I'm a bit concerned about what standard is going to look like once RTR rotates.
September 12, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Well said ChiefBell, that's been my concern all along as a control player. Maybe WotC is telling control players to grab their playset of fetches now and go play modern or legacy...
September 12, 2014 5:08 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #21
I feel like I should put this in a different thread and probably will later as to not overtake this one, but I don't understand how an empty field is exciting. I look at control players and stare at open mana all day long as they drop a tapped land, scry and pass to me. I try to do something and they say wait... Sit staring at their hand for a minute and then say continue, I move on to attack and they say wait... Stare at their hand for a minute, drop AEtherspouts and then repeat the process when I pass my turn... It feels like an entire waste of time when I want to move on from game to game instead of timing out or losing to something like AEtherling while my opponent has 15 lands on the table and 3 counter spells in hand...
September 12, 2014 5:21 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #22
I've been designing a deck to prey upon the slowness of KtK. xD
September 12, 2014 5:28 p.m.
Control decks have their place in the meta, they keep certain decks in check.
There is a certain grindy glory in having your win con be Elixir of Immortality , and just generically having answers to all opposing plays.
September 12, 2014 5:29 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #24
Oh how I wish Elixir of Immortality was getting a reprint.
I can honestly see decks self milling themselves to death happening a bit more frequently
September 12, 2014 5:32 p.m.
I once Phyrexian Arena 'd my entire library away in a match against hatebears. Had crazy lifegain so the game just kept going.
September 12, 2014 5:35 p.m.
I don't think the lack of cheap removal is going to be a huge problem in standard. It may be an issue in limited, but in standard we have enough cheap removal from m15 and theros for it to not really be an issue.
September 12, 2014 5:57 p.m.
We have some but not a vast amount. Probably enough to function.
September 12, 2014 6 p.m.
The color hate cycle like Glare of Heresy may be relevant.
September 12, 2014 6:01 p.m.
You're right weisemanjohn, back in the day control was much better, we could two mana Counterspell you, or Force of Will as we pleased, or even better punished you for attempting to play anything with classics like Mana Drain and Control Magic , those were the good old days. Actually, my favorite was a Stasis prison deck, no thinking for a minute at each phase, you just started your turn, knew you could do nothing, and slowly died on the vise Black Vise . Now them were good times!! Let's bring that back and punish everyone who tries to play these creature boring decks. ;-)
Btw your deck is one of the two featured on the weekly showdown, Spootyone should have it up soon!
September 12, 2014 6:05 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #30
Control will be fine. The meta will take shape allowing for reactive decks to become competitive.
I've seen PT players joke about how Sphinx's Revelation , Jace the Architect, and Supreme Verdict were so powerful together that bad players could misplay regularly and still have success. Control from what I gather generally requires skill to play and has a reputation for it. U/W this past Standard did not when playing against average skill opponents. The point I'm trying to get to here is that if you have the skills you'll be able to play control competitively. If you're a scrub welcome to midrange my friend.
Esper Control has a lot of pros excited. I think it looks good for a rough draft. Check out these KTK decks playing: BBD VS. CVM: Esper Control VS. Temur Monsters. Temur deck is very close to G/R Monsters from this Standard that terrorized U/W Control.
September 12, 2014 6:09 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #31
They are also printing good early disruption in black to compensate for the more expensive removal. Murderous Cut is great as well. White seems to be getting more relevant removal for constructed to make up for it's lack of card advantage outside of tokens allowing it to stay even. There is still cheap bounce and burn as well as a couple good fight spells. I think Windstorm might be half decent in Standard if Prognostic Sphinx is a factor.
All of this seems healthy for the game.
September 12, 2014 6:22 p.m.
Dalektable says... #32
I think the format will be healthy, though primarily dominated by midrange decks. I think Esper Control looks incredibly strong, as does Temur Monsters. Currently I'm playing around with the Monsters deck myself, and it is very strong. Aggro will have a hard time unless it is hyper-aggressive. What I have mostly-built and plan on playing a bit is Herald of the Weenies to punish all the midrange decks that will be running around. I certainly feel it will make for an interesting standard, hopefully. My bet on a rogue deck of sorts I'd like to see pop up is a new Aristocrats with Butcher of the Horde . Could be fun.
September 12, 2014 7:47 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #33
Naturalize and Plummet r both pretty good. Thoughtseize just got that much more mandatory. Despise kinda sucks, but it'll have to do. Ulcerate kicks ass. Bile Blight is kinda meh most the time. Drown in Sorrow just got that much better. May even rise in price...
September 12, 2014 7:59 p.m.
The good old days?
Seriously?
Look at what Legacy looks like. If you don't play blue for Force of Will you are doomed to lose. The entire format is ruled entirely by control, but like, completely. That is dull. You control players cried about a lack of variety? THAT is a lack of variety.
September 13, 2014 3:53 a.m.
I mean you can say that Drathen but it is just a lie.
September 13, 2014 6:22 a.m.
@Drathen - I guess you don't play legacy then, right? What Force of Will does in the format is keep decks like Goblin Charbelcher from dominating the format with their consistent attempts at turns 1-2 kills. If you go by mtgtop8 stats for 2014, in Legacy control is 37% of the top8s while aggro is 35% and combo is 27% That is a healthy format to me.
As for removal and control is concerned for this season, I think control losing those great RTR cards does hurt and it kills what the deck has been for this past year. I don't think that's a bad thing (even though I had a great year with U/W Control), control will now simply come in a different shape. I think a card that will be great for control this season is Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver . With so many midrange decks around, you will be playing with lots of monsters that don't belong to you. Don't know about you guys, but nothing is better than playing with my opponent's Courser of Kruphix :-)
September 13, 2014 8:28 a.m.
Drathen I was just being a smart ass and stirring the pot a bit. I did play from 1995-1997 and did love Stasis decks. Also early on i was routinely facing against the power 9 et cetera, and usually I was the one facing Mana Drain /Control Magic . It really sucked at times since I was coming in at revised and didn't have the cards, but all in all it forced me to learn a lot and it was more fun then frustration. I haven't played legacy or modern since coming back. Anyway, I wasn't really trying to start something, just feeling a bit ornery. Thus the ";-)" in my previous post.
September 13, 2014 8:45 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #38
Rayenous, maybe I'm being lazy, but could you update the list with all the changes? It be easier to look at as a whole
September 13, 2014 9:16 a.m.
@MagicalHacker - I made the list while @ work... (shhh...) and the original is sitting on my work computer.
When I go back on Monday, if I'm not too busy, I'll try to update it.
Not that there's a lot to update... there's my original post, my second post that added a few more, and then maybe 2-3 more cards I may have missed.
The only other things I could add are combat tricks... but I don't classify spells/abilities that rely on your opponents decisions (to attack or block) as consistent enough to be called 'removal'.
September 13, 2014 10:33 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #40
Well, I'd say any destroy or exile effects for combat should be fine. Most creatures that are problematic usually attack anyways.
Rayenous says... #2
A few I missed....
"Damage to Each..."
- Windstorm
- Barrage of Boulders
.
"Forced Sacrifice"
- Dead Drop
- Crackling Doom
- Sorin, Solemn Visitor
(Emblem)
September 12, 2014 2:54 p.m.