Liliana and Evolutionary Leap speculation
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on July 19, 2015, 11:40 a.m. by roundhk
What do you guys think about these cards? Some people say that Evolutionary Leap would take Birthing Pod's place in modern and will play in some tribal standard decks.
And about Liliana, I really don't know if her pw form is that much. Like, it can work well with aggro decks, but can it really make top 8 in standard? And in modern, does it have a chance?
julianjmoss says... #3
Evolutionary leap is a very different card but it could also help dredge decks in modern. It's a card a lot of people will try and pick up and brew with but its price is very dependent on its success which none of us can predict
July 19, 2015 11:52 a.m.
Lilly is not that great of a card. evol leap is a whole other animal all together. When leap is out with green mana up, You can not interact with my creatures properly. All removal spells turn into blanks.
Here is an example of a standard deck with leap. Red Goblins tokens with Pile Driver and Rabblemaster as your only creatures and the rest are tokens and burn spells. When you block a token, sac it and get either creature because it is the only creature cards in your deck. You can card select 8 times total and you know how many creatures you have left in your deck. Leap is a nasty card but you have to build a deck for it. Tokens are gross with leap because it turns them into real cards. 3 Hordling outburst tokens becomes 2 piledrivers and 1 rabblemaster.
In a weenie deck you can swing with all your creatures because what ever gets blocks you just turn it into another creature.
How about a 24 creature one drop deck with leap? You know you can cast whatever you draw because they all cost the same.... 1 mana.
Just some thoughts with leap and the deck building potential is very high.
July 19, 2015 12:10 p.m.
I've picked up my Evolutionary Leaps and I'm brewing like hell with it in Modern. It's really fun to play with. In the right deck, it can be great, but there's always the potentially to trip into a blank. I'm treating it as the new Collected Company at the moment. Company was like an inconsistent Pod, Leap is like an inconsistent Survival of the Fittest.
I'm playing Lili as a one of in Anafenza Company at the moment and it seems like a really cool value card in certain situations, though. I'm not sure it's ever going to be a Modern staple, though.
July 19, 2015 12:21 p.m.
Leap is nothing like SurvivalOTF. This requires the card to be cast which is an extra cost, survival only requires that the card is in hand. Survival is cheaper and easier to use from a mana perspective.
Leap would be great if you could choose the creature, but seeing as you can't, it's not useful.
July 19, 2015 1:17 p.m.
All that means is they belong in two different decks.
It's like I've said to others I've talked to. The comparisons are there for obvious reasons but is very clear to anyone who's looked at the cards that they don't do the same thing. It feels like everyone who is down on Evolutionary Leap is only down on it because Survival of the Fittest is better, but like I said they don't do the same thing. So of course survival is better at what it does, because leap is doing something completely different. In decks where Evolutionary Leap shines, Survival of the Fittest won't. Is that going to suddenly make survival a bad card... NO... it just means it's not useful in decks that aren't taking advantage of what it's actually doing. The same goes for Evolutionary Leap.
July 19, 2015 2:01 p.m.
I'm in doubt if I should sell them now or wait. I think I'll hold my Evolutionary Leap and sell my Liliana, what do you think?
July 19, 2015 2:05 p.m.
Yes but I can't see a deck where leap WOULD shine due to its randomness, and extra inherent costs to play.
July 19, 2015 2:06 p.m.
Getting rid of lili is the right call. Getting rid of leap is probably the right call but that's uncertain.
July 19, 2015 2:07 p.m.
Thanks! I think I'll keep my Evolutionary Leap, just in case... :)
July 19, 2015 2:23 p.m.
Leap is actually decent when in the right deck. Token decks with low cost creatures, weenies, sacrificial decks. Survival and Pod are both better, granted, but Leap does something different than both of them, and that randomness makes it less useful for toolbox decks where Pod and Survival thrive.
I can see all three working well in G/X edh decks. Especially together. Leap isn't consistent enough for modern but may become an edh staple due to the fact that it's an easier to acquire alternative to both Pod and Survival. Although the best option would be to play all 3 in edh.
July 19, 2015 3:07 p.m.
Evolutionary Leap is literally a fixed version of Oath of Druids. It's much worse, obviously, but that's clearly what they tried to do. I can see a deck that wants to run like, 8 creatures that make eldrazi spawn when BfZ drops, and one-two eldrazi in the deck. Just keep cycling the creatures that made the eldrazi spawn to try and hit the eldrazi, and then use the spawn to ramp em out. Something like that would be reasonably consistent if the rest of the deck was a control shell.
Edit: Lili, on the other hand, is horrendous as far as standard goes. Her real use, as far as my friends and I can tell, is in combination with Fulminator Mage in modern.
July 19, 2015 4:26 p.m. Edited.
I'm confused as to why people keep saying Survival of the Fittest is better than Evolutionary Leap. They literally do two different things and require two different kinds of decks. That's like saying Dissolve is better than Stormbreath Dragon. Maybe yeah in a control deck, Dissolve is better, but just comparing the two cards in a vacuum there's no way to make any determination one way or the other.
The same goes for Survival of the Fittest and Evolutionary Leap. They aren't interchangeable. If you took a deck and replaced all of the Survivals in it with Leaps the deck wouldn't function. Not because Evolutionary Leap is bad, but because it does something completely different.
July 19, 2015 5:21 p.m.
But if you replace all the leaps with survivals the deck would function better. Because they are somewhat interchangeable.
July 19, 2015 5:27 p.m.
No it wouldn't. In a dedicated leap deck your going to want your creatures to hit the board, taking advantage of LTB abilities or turning tokens into cards in hand, etc. If you replaced your leaps with SOTF, then your creatures go directly from your hand to your graveyard, exactly what you wouldn't want. You would completely circumvent everything your trying to take advantage of. The two are definitely not interchangable
July 19, 2015 5:35 p.m.
So you've identified one potential synergy and decided that now the two cards are chalk and cheese. Right.
Essentially you've referred to an extremely specific example and based on that one case extrapolated to ALL cases.
July 19, 2015 5:37 p.m. Edited.
No I'm not. If you honestly can't tell that these two cards do two completely different things then there's a serious problem here. The only thing similar about the two is their mana cost and their color. The cards function in two different way doing two completely different things.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one requires cards in your hand and the other requires cards on the battlefield. It doesn't take a genius to see that one tutors for something specific while simultaneously putting something into your graveyard and the other takes a dying creature and replaces it in your hand with another creature card. The two just don't function the same way and are not interchangeable no matter how much you want to pretend they are. If you can't grasp that then don't bother responding because unless your physically going to change what the cards say, then your not going to make them do the same thing.
July 19, 2015 5:57 p.m.
You mean aside from turning one creature card into another creature card? Their like absolute, basic, fundamental function.
July 19, 2015 5:59 p.m.
No, because Evolutionary Leap doesn't require a creature card... it only finds you one. See you just think you understand what it does. The only one that does requires a creature card to activate is Survival of the Fittest.
You might want to reread what the two cards actually do because it's kind of important.
One last time.... survival obviously puts things in your graveyard and let you find other specific things. Leap lets you turn a creature you've already taken advantage of on the battlefield into a creature card in your hand. They have two different functions.
Don't even try to tell us they're the same simply because you end up with a card in hand, it's insulting to the intelligence of anyone who reads it. By that definition then any draw spell would be a worse version of SOTF and no one would honestly argue that.
July 19, 2015 6:14 p.m.
Ok if you're not willing to acknowledge that a 'sacrifice a creature' clause requires a creature which comes from, oh you know, creature cards then I can't be bothered with you and your belligerent rubbish.
You can activate it based on tokens but this isn't something that's going to happen in the majority of cases.
They have their ins and outs but their overarching function is extremely similar. Saying they're as far apart as a counterspell and a creature spell is just ridiculous.
July 19, 2015 6:22 p.m.
abenz419 You... really need to calm your tits. Evo Leap requires you to find a creature spell, successfully resolve it, and THEN activate leap. Survival simply requires to you find a creature spell. It just simply requires much less mana. Sure, you can get "value" off of Evo Leap once the creature is in play while you can't with survival, but the point remains that Survival turns your bad draws into good draws, where as Evo Leap actually makes you play the bad spells before trying to find you a better one.
They difference between the cards is that Evo Leap requires much more mana. So yea, calm your tits bud, and accept you are wrong.
July 19, 2015 6:25 p.m. Edited.
1G Enchanntment. Pay G, put creature in grave, get creature card from your library to your hand. Survival of the Fittest is the closest we have for comparison. While we haven't seen much play with the card yet, comparing it to a similar card is the best tool we have for evaluation right now.
Also, the card is probably very, very good in Modern Elves with Craterhoof Behemoth.
July 19, 2015 6:27 p.m.
@kyuuri117 Actually all you've done is further illustrate how they are two completely different cards and are not interchangeable. Thanks for proving me right and showing that they belong in two completely different decks!
I love how everyone's argument is that Survival of the Fittest is better because it does something completely different than Evolutionary Leap. Yet someone how you can't grasp the concept that if they to do completely different things then they're not the same. It's to the point I"m not sure if your just trolling me, or if you guys really can't grasp something that simple.
July 19, 2015 6:37 p.m.
Or maybe you're mental and they do in fact do very similar things like literally EVERYONE is telling you.
But you may just be a special little snowflake right?
July 19, 2015 6:39 p.m.
abenz419 Lol. Completely different? Dude, it's a technicality. Sure, you can play token generating cards with evolutionary leap such as Dragon Fodder or whatever the hell you want to play. And then you can sac them to get creatures from your deck. That does not make them completely different cards. They both cost the same, have the same activated cost, are both green enchantments, both make you cycle through your deck until you hit a creature, and both put them into your hand. Refusing to acknowledge that they are not "completely different cards that do completely different things" makes you look like a fool.
July 19, 2015 6:40 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
As a general rule, very few intelligent and cogent posts ever began with "thanks for proving me right."
July 19, 2015 6:42 p.m.
The bottom line should be, Evolutionary Leap is random and Survival of the Fittest is not. End of story.
July 19, 2015 6:44 p.m.
ok it's now official. You guys are crazy and just trolling me. Clearly you guys realized your wrong and are just too embarrassed to admit it. I mean there's no way people are really as stupid as you guys are acting. You wouldn't be able to walk and chew gum if you really were as dumb as your pretending to be. Good one guys, you got me. HAHAHA
July 19, 2015 6:50 p.m.
He's gotta be like what, ten? Do ten year olds even use internet chat forums? I don't even know. Maybe he's got a legitimate mental health issue. Gonna drop this as there's clearly no reasoning with him and if he really is mentally ill then i'd feel bad about upsetting him.
July 19, 2015 6:52 p.m.
FWIW, I agree that Evolutionary Leap and Survival of the Fittest do very different things. But the randomness of Leap just makes the card crap.
July 19, 2015 6:54 p.m.
News just in: Timetwister and Day's Undoing are opposite cards and hot snow rains up.
July 19, 2015 6:55 p.m.
@JWiley129 that part is accurate. Survival lets you get something specific while Leap is as random as you build the deck. That doesn't mean they're identical and interchangeable though, which is what they're arguing.
You can't say Survival is better than Leap because they'll be used in two completely different strategies. It's like comparing an apples and oranges. But they can't look past the fact they both cost the same to cast. I mean they even argue that Leap isn't as good as Survival because it doesn't let you do the same things survival does. Like that's not a giant indicator that the two cards do different things. They're just trolling now so don't worry about it.
July 19, 2015 6:56 p.m.
Also, roundhk, I'm really sorry about this. Maybe start a new thread. Hopefully you got enough advice/discussion before it descended into this rubbish.
July 19, 2015 6:56 p.m.
I can say that Survival is better than Leap, though. They try to fill the same function, but Survival does it better. Choice > Random.
July 19, 2015 6:58 p.m.
Holy fuck guys. Calm down. Yes they're extremely similar yet they have differences. Yes you may use one over another. Does it matter which is better and how they work? No.
Because they're both at least decent cards. Stop bitching about it. And play one.
July 19, 2015 6:59 p.m.
abenz419 Let me ask you something. Would you agree that Day of Judgment, Wrath of God and Supreme Verdict are all similar cards that do similar things? Regardless of whether or not you agree, the answer is that yes, yes they are very similar cards that do very similar things. That is the same. exact. thing. as Evolutionary Leap and Survival of the Fittest.
July 19, 2015 7 p.m.
Like, if I couldn't afford a Survival of the Fittest for EDH, I'd use Leap. It's a less efficient version. I honestly don't understand how that is lost on you. If R&D weren't thinking about SotF when they designed the card, I will eat my copy of SotF.
July 19, 2015 7:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #39
I'm unimpressed by poorly articulated arguments. I'm really unimpressed by childlike fingers-in-the-ears stupidity.
Survival of the Fittest and Evolutionary Leap serve the same basic purpose: they trade cards you currently have for ones in your library.
Where they differ is in their functionality.
Survival of the Fittest is designed to help you filter unneeded cards from your hand into your graveyard in order to find specific cards in your library.
Evolutionary Leap is designed to help you sacrifice unneeded creatures from your field in order to find another creature at random.
Evolutionary Leap is kind of like a polymorphing Pod. But it's certainly and obviously weaker than Survival of the Fittest. The mana investment required to use it is higher, and it doesn't put the creature card it finds onto the battlefield to replace the one you sacrificed. You also have no control over the card it finds, so you have to hope that the card is relevant. Of course, you could instead use it with tokens and only one or two key creature cards in the deck, but you're better off just running an actual polymorph at that point because you'd put the creatures straight onto the field.
Survival of the Fittest is better because it requires no investment other than 
. You get to discard one creature card that you don't necessarily need and now don't have to pay for and turn it into a creature card that's more relevant and important to you in your present situation.
You can argue all you like that the two cards belong in different decks purely because they have slightly different mechanics, but Evolutionary Leap is a weaker version of Survival of the Fittest. It's a weaker version of Birthing Pod, too. It requires so much investment to work as a primary component of your deck, and it offers very little unique advantage as a support card. It's also not a suitable replacement for Survival of the Fittest because of how inferior its effect is.
July 19, 2015 7:09 p.m.
Lol, I assumed you guys understood the importance of putting a card from your hand into your graveyard. That's probably why you think discarding a creature card and sacrificing a creature are the same thing. It's becoming clearer now why you guys are so confused and feel the need to act so ignorant. Like I said they won't go into the same deck because they don't function the same way. IF you don't believe, then me go find a deck list and replace every survival in it with Evolutionary Leap. The deck won't just get slower, it won't function at all because your taking your discard engine away and removing a key aspect of the deck. That's not because Evolutionary Leap is worse than Survival of the Fittest it's because you don't use the two cards in the same way. They have two completely different function in their respective decks.
July 19, 2015 7:10 p.m.
No, they have the same function through different game mechanics. I hope you read Epochalyptik's post carefully, as he explains it better than any of us have.
July 19, 2015 7:15 p.m.
abenz419 -- I really hope you don't think SotF is for discarding Griselbrand et all for stupid combo. It's also for throwing away late-game mana dork draws. I'm going to use Leap to sac a Bird of Paradise for more relevance.
Also, in all your rage and "lol you guys are trolling", you've yet to explain your point outside of just saying "THEY'RE DIFFERENT, SAC ISN'T DISCARD."
July 19, 2015 7:20 p.m.
I like to think of evo leap as a slightly worse skullclamp it only draws one card but that card is guaranteed to be a creature and the only modern deck I have is dredgevine and in that deck evo leap can protect my creatures from exile removal like path to exile and allows me to get more creatures to trigger vengevine or pitch them to lotleth troll
July 20, 2015 3:14 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #45
I'm actually with abenz419 right now. Everyone else is seriously just hating on him because he's has a blue username or something. A token is not a card, you can't have it in your hand. A deck that utilizes token producing abilities through creatures definitely seems like a good place to put Evolutionary Leap (potentially also some recursion build with Alesha/Kolaghan/Witness), and it is a deck in which Survival of the Fittest will not work. You don't want to be discarding the creature cards in your hand. You want to be playing them in order to get the tokens out of them. This nets you a higher creature value as your 1/1 or 2/2 tokens then become draw card fodder, if at a high mana cost. Survival of the Fittest, doesn't work very well in this case because you have no specific card that will win you the game, as your deck is an aggro deck and you rely on a hefty board presence. Evolutionary Leap will give you an engine to fuel that board presence, Survival of the Fittest will not.
People, before you make a post, look at the mood of what you are posting. You aren't making this community look like a welcoming and respectful community to those who aren't upgraded users.
July 20, 2015 3:17 p.m. Edited.
Femme_Fatale - abenz419 has been around a year, he certainly knows the T/O community by now. However, even with that you said, I still think Leap is worse than Survival. Yes, they mechanically do different things, but functionally they do the same thing: trade one card for another. The killing point is, and has always been, that Evolutionary Leap is random while Survival of the Fittest is not. Sure there are ways to exploit Leap, but I don't believe it is worth the trouble. If you want to sac tokens for profit, just play Polymorph or Jalira, Master Polymorphist.
July 20, 2015 3:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #47
It has nothing to do with whether someone has an upgraded account. It has everything to do with the quality of the arguments they advance.
And abenz419 has been around long enough and is active enough to qualify as a "regular" anyway. Let's not shoehorn identity politics into the debate.
July 20, 2015 3:30 p.m.
Ok so here's the thing about three very comparible cards: it comes down to cost, efficiency and all that.
Evolutionary Leap: costs 2, requires a creature on the field and costs to activate. Completely random.
Survival of the Fittest: also costs 2, costs to activate, but instead a switches a creature card in hand to one on the battlefield on the field.
Finally, which is an equally good comparison, Birthing Pod: costs 3 if you pay 2 life, activates for 1 if you pay 2 life, doesn't actually require green mana at all, searches for a creature card to put on the battlefield with restrictions and requires field presence.
Let's face it, Evolutionary Leap is not as good as those two cards. Just the fact that it's random makes it not as good. But is Leap a bad card? No. It's just that those two cards are amazing green cards. And one is banned in modern while the other (Survival) idk if it's modern legal (maybe? Idk). So for standard, we have Leap for now, and then it'll become the dollar bin rare that can be pretty playable in edh still.
But let's face it, it's still a fun card. I use it in a Xenagos edh and I have fun when I use it. And honestly it's kinda... Weird that this card, which despite being extremely reminiscent of a classic powerhouse green card, is being argued over so much before anyone has actually tried to play it for fun. So like the fighting and arguing about it doesn't really do much.
Then again, I'm a casual edh player. What the hell do I know about card value?
July 20, 2015 4:47 p.m.
Aside from completely sidetracking the thread, we've lost sight of the argument in the first place.
It never was "are the two cards interchangeable in the same deck?". It was "are these two cards similar, and if so, which is better?"
They clearly go in different decks (EDH decks aside) and do different things. They are also clearly similar in design. And survival is clearly less mana intensive, and thus, more competitive, and therefore should be considered "better".
That really should have been the end of the discussion.
canterlotguardian says... #2
Lili won't see much of a splash in anything outside EDH, where she's absolutely bonkers. EvoLeap is not even close to taking Pod's place, either. Again, great in EDH, not much anywhere else.
July 19, 2015 11:45 a.m.