Liliana of the Veil
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on July 25, 2014, 11:49 a.m. by TheAnnihilator
So, I'll admit that I don't have a source, but I heard somewhere that if monoblack hadn't been so prevalent before M15 came out, we would have seen a totally different Liliana... Yup, I suspect that Wizards wanted to print Liliana of the Veil
in M15 (all of you MBD players, this is why we can't have nice things.) If any of you guys have the source, please let me know.
So, what about Lili in Khans block? Could we be seeing more of her soon? I, for one, would LOVE to have a chance to own her.
Maro already confirmed that they tested Liliana of the Veil in M15, but she was too good there. So you aren't exactly on something new here.
July 25, 2014 12:01 p.m.
I don't think your source is accurate. MBD has really only been prevalent for the last 8-9 months. M15 was planned out months in advance, and it takes a while just for them to print the cards. I don't see how they could've reacted to the standard meta and switched Lilis in that time frame.
July 25, 2014 12:05 p.m.
Yea, Liliana would have been too good, Imagine the Liliana of the Veil and Waste Not engine for some time. Plus as mentioned already, mono black is very solid. Imagine T1 Thoughtsieze, t2 Waste Not , t3 Liliana of the Veil , t4 your move to whatever the board state needs, t5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel for 6 while already getting about 3 triggers off of waste not.
July 25, 2014 12:07 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #6
@kmcree See post #2 on this page.
I was just thinking that after half of MBD rotated, Lili might not be as broken (lol, Lili is ALWAYS broken...?). But my intent on posting this thread was to say that Wizards isn't opposed to a Lili reprint (in fact, they tested to see if she could be printed in the most recent set), so when might we se her again?
July 25, 2014 12:17 p.m.
Right, they tested her and decided she was too good. But that took place months ago. It wasn't because of the prevalence of MBD in standard, or anything to do with the standard meta. It was because she was too powerful within M15.
July 25, 2014 12:19 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #8
Once the overall powerlevel of both sets in standard rises, we see a fetchland reprint, and she fits thematically, she will be reprinted.
Theros is far too weak to fight against her, so a khans print is out. If khans is on anywhere near the same powerlevel as Innistrad / Ravnica, then she may see print in the following block or M17. I don't see her getting a reprint before the fetches though, just based on the uproar that the modern community would give. I see something like "We've been asking for fetches for three years, and you give black mages another lili? Wtf WotC?!" being a common argument. Its not that she's Force of Will broken, it's just that she's very hard to fit into a standard environment at a time that will make modern and legacy players happy too. People are perfectly content paying a solid hundo on her right now, so until they aren't, I wouldn't expect a reprint. But that's just coming from my economic view point.
July 25, 2014 12:25 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #9
@ThatBlueMage I definitely see your point. I don't know about the overall power-level of the sets (I got into competitive magic just barely after Lili rotated out, so I haven't seen here used in any standard venue), but what you've said about the fetches, that's definitely true. If I were more into Modern, I'd be totally pissed if they reprinted Lili before fetches.
July 25, 2014 12:32 p.m.
She's not close to $100. She's been hovering in the $70 range for about 5 months now. There are plenty of Modern staples that need to see a reprint for costs reasons much more than Lili does. If you're going purely from an economic standpoint, fetches, Goyf, and V-Clique should all be reprinted before Lili. Lili is an incredibly powerful walker, but she's only played in a handful of decks (primarily Jund and 8Rack). Wizards isn't going to reprint her just to satisfy cost reasons. She'll have to fit into the set, and into the current standard power level. Currently, she does neither.
July 25, 2014 12:32 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #11
I mean, she's super broke. In M15 I can really see how R&D made a quick and identical conclusion.
July 25, 2014 12:41 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #13
Could've sworn she was at the $80-100 range. Well, shows me for not keeping tabs on absurd modern prices.
Regardless, however, there's still better things to reprint for cash value. I personally don't think that Urborg was one of them, but hey, Wizards gunna Wiz. (I also don't play black in any format that would play urborg, no h8 plz)
July 25, 2014 12:46 p.m.
Since she was too powerful for M15, I'm not sure we're going to see her reprinted in a standard set. Thematically, M15 would have been the time for a reprint with all of the Chain Veil stuff.
July 25, 2014 12:46 p.m.
I would imagine we will see a new Liliana as opposed to a reprint of the second most powerful and broken planeswalker card ever printed. In one of the next two blocks I would be willing to bet we will see Liliana confront the third of her four demon masters, as in the Chain Veil article by Wizards, she said therewas work to do to regain her soul. And if that doesn't get you excited, this might: the last one was Griselbrand . Imagine one that she deems more dangerous than Innistrad's version of Satan.
July 25, 2014 12:48 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #16
Liliana of the Veil is a much more powerful card than Force of Will . Force is only contextually strong in Legacy because of all the instant-win combos and cards. Lili is strong in every format she's legal in because she's powerful all on her own. Hell, if Force of Will was reprinted in Standard, there's a chance it wouldn't even see that much play because it's inherent card disadvantage. Without the danger of losing on the spot every turn, Force loses a lot of its sway.
That's just my thoughts there. I don't exactly expect a Force reprint.
Also, it's been mentioned before, but I'll reiterate it here. Wizards has no direct stake in the secondary card market. They have a strong incentive to print cards that will sell packs, but that's about it. Their priority is to keep Standard balanced so that people keep buying Standard-legal packs. If a hype-ey reprint generates extra interest, that's good for them, but they won't break Standard just to reprint a card.
July 25, 2014 12:51 p.m.
kmcree - Here is where Maro confirms that Liliana of the Veil was supposed to be reprinted. But she was too strong for Standard. Each new set isn't just tested by itself, but in the Standard environment it will be legal in. WotC does a lot of work to make sure that Standard is balanced and one deck doesn't just dominate the entire format. If they say that Liliana of the Veil was too powerful, I'm inclined to believe them.
July 25, 2014 12:51 p.m.
I got my playset of Lili early. I'm actually on the "hope she never gets reprinted" side of the fence.
July 25, 2014 12:54 p.m.
They plan and make cards YEARS in advance. Right now, it's likely that they're working on M17.
This means that when they were testing Liliana of the Veil with M15, they likely knew MBD was going to be a thing and it was at the same time Lili was already tearing it up in 3-color decks in Standard. If she was strong enough for 3-color decks, she would annihilate in MBD.
July 25, 2014 12:56 p.m.
slovakattack says... #20
The thought of Liliana of the Veil and Waste Not in standard makes me queasy- and I don't even play standard!
I'm pretty sure that would have made 8-rack a top tier deck.
July 25, 2014 1:10 p.m.
I bought my copy of her when she was $20, now she's about $70 XD
I kinda do kinda don't want her to be printed. like naynay666 said, I bought my copy early. If she gets a reprint,, the value of her will most likely go down. Buuuuuuut, it would be really nice to be able to use her in standard again, since I happened to be playing Wolf Run Bant up until rotation. And ironicly, that has every color in it except black :/
zandl: Are you serious? Years in advance? You learn something new everyday :)
July 25, 2014 1:10 p.m.
The Doctor says... #22
While they do design years in advance, it doesn't mean that the sets are well, set it stone.
I'd say there are roughly 25 cards that they can swap out at any time if something were to be too powerful.
July 25, 2014 1:14 p.m.
@JWiley129: I'm not saying they didn't test her within the meta. What I'm saying is that they probably did it a year ago or more. Somebody was blaming MBD players, and my point was just that current players in the Meta didn't have anything to do with it. All of this stuff has been decided way in advance.
July 25, 2014 1:16 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #24
Wizards used to use a testing committee called the "Future League" to test and develop cards about a year in advance, but came across serious balance issues when various sets had to interact. After a particularly terrible Standard, they created the "Future Future League", which looks ahead much farther and digs deeply into the various Standard interactions to avoid Caw Blade V2 and other such decks from emerging.
July 25, 2014 1:17 p.m.
The Doctor is right. They have some time before the set gets printed before the set is completely unchangeable. For example, remember the outcry over Lightning Strike ? Well it was printed because the card was a red burn spell Development was worried about being too good. So they reskinned Searing Spear for Theros and put it into the set, because they know what 2-mana deal 3 damage can do.
kmcree - Most of development are former Pro Tour players and they have a decent idea of what the best decks are going to be in a given Standard. And if you don't think they came across MBD in the Future Future League, you're lying to yourself.
July 25, 2014 1:19 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #26
Following what kmcree said, Liliana of the Veil is one of those cards that would have had extra scrutiny put on it. She probably got the axe relatively quickly.
The flex spots in a set are going to be used for cards that nobody saw coming. Every so often a card sneaks through the cracks and defines a format in an unexpected way. Flex spots are often used to limit the power of those cards retroactively.
That being said, those flex cards aren't tested nearly as thoroughly as the rest of the set, and often break the game in their own little ways.
July 25, 2014 1:22 p.m.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE a second set of Liliana of the Veil . The Legacy set and the Modern set. Oh man.
July 25, 2014 1:24 p.m.
JWiley129 you obviously don't get what I'm saying. But it's fine. I'll just drop it.
July 25, 2014 1:25 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #29
I feel like people are throwing the term broken around here. People forget when LotV was standard we also had the best mana fixing for standard we've had since Shards/Zendikar AND Unburial Rites
. People were playing 3, 4 and even 5 color good stuff.
Obviously slotting her into MBD would be ridiculous, but I feel like "broken" is a little generous. She's really good, but not broken.
I would love a reprint.
July 25, 2014 1:35 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #30
oh...and at the beginning we had Snapcaster Mage /Mana Leak which they also admitted shouldn't have been allowed in the same format.
July 25, 2014 1:36 p.m.
Lili isn't broken. She's just too powerful for the current standard. As I said earlier, if you look at modern, only a handful of decks play her. She's an extremely powerful card, but definitely not broken. I just think that, combined with all the other MBD goodies, she would quickly make standard degenerate.
July 25, 2014 1:41 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #32
With the number of people splashing for Hero's Downfall , I think that that same splash for lili isn't beyond the realm of possibility.
July 25, 2014 1:41 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #33
I'm not saying she wouldn't be too good in the format. Obviously Wizards decided that to be the case. The mana right now isn't too bad to support a splash for one color either, and we just got enemy painlands to replace some of the shocks.
@ ThatBlueMage I'd probably be squeezing black into my decks to play her too. It'd be more than a splash with Hero's Downfall and Liliana of the Veil though considering the mana commitment to regularly cast them turn 3.
July 25, 2014 1:48 p.m.
The Doctor says... #34
kmcree I agree.
I think people think she's broken simply because of when she was alive in standard. It was the combination of those JUND/Golgari decks that made her "broken".
As a card itself, it's simply just really strong. If MBD wasn't a thing in standard, she could have easily seen a reprint.
July 25, 2014 1:48 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #35
kmcree says...
"Lili isn't broken. She's just too powerful for the current standard. As I said earlier, if you look at modern, only a handful of decks play her. She's an extremely powerful card, but definitely not broken. I just think that, combined with all the other MBD goodies, she would quickly make standard degenerate"
This.
July 25, 2014 1:59 p.m.
I made the mistake of not getting any Liliana of the Veil while they were still "cheap." However, I do plan to own a playset by this time next year.
As awesome as it would be to have her in Standard again... the thought terrifies me. Definitely not while devotion is a thing, but even in a diverse format, she would be scary.
July 25, 2014 2:05 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #37
I can see her in a Modern Masters product, if nothing else. That's actually more likely than a standard reprint, and likely to happen about the same time that that would anyway.
July 25, 2014 2:07 p.m.
slovakattack says... #38
I think a lot of people confuse "powerful" with "meta-warping". Liliana of the Veil is the first, not the second. You don't see U/W/R control splashing black just to have her, etc.
Examples of actually meta-warping cards:
In general, a card that does something really well (such as Liliana) but whose "thing" (in this case, easy discard and some spot removal) is only relevant to a few specific archetypes (8-rack, dredge, etc.) isn't going to be a meta-sucking black hole.
Compare this to Jace-who-shall-not-be-named, who approaches Black Lotus levels of universal utility. (<- Clarification: What Jace and BL share is that there is no deck that exists that would not love to have what they bring to the table. The only thing stopping a mono-red deck from throwing Jace in is his color.)
That's why, Imo, it wouldn't be crazy to see a reprint. It'd just be crazy to see a reprint in the current meta, which has a lot of support for her atm. Wait a few years, and we may likely see Liliana of the Veil again.
July 25, 2014 2:08 p.m.
If they tested her for M15, I imagine then that the team at Wizards would like to see her in Standard again, but only when her power won't be as dominating as it would have been here. As for a reprint in a block set, that won't happen as they don't reprint walkers in blocks, it's all about new toys there.
July 25, 2014 2:17 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #40
M16 would be entertaining. Would 3 months of MBD reanimated be so bad?
It seems likely it will die with Khans release
July 25, 2014 2:20 p.m.
Don't be so sure MBD will die. As long as Gary is around, there will be potential. I think it could morph into a more discard oriented approach with Waste Not , but I'd still expect MBD to remain prevalent even after rotation.
July 25, 2014 2:22 p.m.
Slightly off topic, I think that many devotion strategies will be weaked due to the fact that Nightveil Specter and Boros Reckoner are leaving Standard. They are the best devotion sources in Standard for those colors for a mana cost <4. While they will stick around, I don't think they will be as potent as they have been.
July 25, 2014 2:28 p.m.
darthfrog My guess is that they tested her because of the theme. This was the set of the The Chain Veil and a corrupted Garruk, Apex Predator . Given that her storyline will likely progress from here, this might have been the last chance to really fit a reprint into a standard environment.
A modern masters reprint seems much more likely going forward.
July 25, 2014 2:32 p.m.
Given the theme of M15, I was really hoping for a new Lili. She only has three cards, whereas there are 5 Jaces, 5 Ajanis, 4 (and a half?) Garruks, and 4 Chandras. Because of the article WotC printed a short while back about Liliana trying to get rid of the Chain Veil, I'm expecting a new Liliana with Khans.
July 25, 2014 3:56 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #45
I've said this before but we haven't had a Chandra in block since Chandra Ablaze . Since Chandra found out Bolas had something to do with her finding the Dragon Scroll it only makes sense that we see Chandra in the block with Sarkhan dreaming of Ugin...
My money's on Chandra over Liliana in Khans.
July 25, 2014 4:01 p.m.
the3rdH0kage says... #46
There not working on M17, they are currently working on the second or third set of the M15 block.
July 25, 2014 5:20 p.m.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Future_Future_League
July 25, 2014 5:56 p.m.
@TheGamer: you can get on the wizards wiki and see the names of the sets for 2-3 blocks down the road. Haha. I just wish a few cards from each were spoiled. Speaking of which, anyone got any clue as to when they will spoil Khans?
July 25, 2014 6:50 p.m.
Scytec - That's off topic, and there's a Magic panel at San Diego Comic-Con where Maro will talk about Khans a little bit.
July 25, 2014 6:53 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #50
So, I feel like I need to clarify something:
Though I know Lili would have been overly powerful in M15, it is still interesting that Wizards was even considering giving Lili a print.
Does this strike anyone else as odd? I mean, I saw a couple people talking about how they didn't think Lili would EVER see a new print run. Yet, here we are discussing how they would have put her in M15, but found she was too powerful. Still, they would have done it if she hadn't been too powerful. Clearly, they plan on reintroducing her at some point in time. I just was wondering when this might happen.
-------------------------------------------------------
I want to reference back to ThatBlueMage's post:
"Once the overall powerlevel of both sets in standard rises, we see a fetchland reprint, and she fits thematically, she will be reprinted."
This is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. Wizards has deemed that Lili is a good candidate for an eventual reprint, if not M15 (obviously), then eventually... But when?
Servo_Token says... #2
Nope. It's about 95% unlikely that LotV will see a khans reprint.
She is super broken in every format that she's legal in, and with black being a pushed thing already, there's no reason to print her again.
July 25, 2014 noon