Magic Origins SPOILERS!
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 8, 2015, 1:03 a.m. by JWiley129
MaRo's article got spoiled early, so we have some SPICY Previews with "new" mechanics!
TL;DR: Menace is replacing Intimidate & Landwalk, Prowess is now evergreen primary in Blue secondary in Red and maybe tertiary in White, and Protection is now deciduous used only as necessary.
Magic Origins Card Image Gallery
I really like Gideon's first side. Splashable in mono red aggro-I sure think so. 2 Ornithopters! and him turn 1, T1 Gideon, T2 2x Monastery Swiftspear or lightning berserker
June 17, 2015 7:36 a.m.
So.... Standard...
T1: Ornithopter, Ornithopter, Plains Kytheon...
T2: Plains, Swing... Gods Willing (if needed)... Flip...
Then Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if Gods Willing wasn't needed... and make Her indestructible.
If Gods Willing was needed due to blocker, then you make the blocker attack Gideon instead.
I think that's a fairly good setup in Standard.
June 17, 2015 7:52 a.m.
branston567 says... #4
I'm just pleased that they all can be reanimated with Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, especially with Gideon this seems like the best way to Flip him, also a lot of decks are running a legendary 2/2 for 
with a downside at the moment (Zurgo Bellstriker for those who arent aware), how is a legendary 2/1 in white with an upside bad!? You can even leave him unflipped and use him as an eternal blocker of you want!
June 17, 2015 8:47 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #5
Gideon provides great tempo but he is not super powerful. He is a 1 mana investment that will trade for 2 or 3 mana. If you have to use his indestructible the he is now just giving average returns. His biggest flag is that he can't create card advantage, it's all about tempo.
June 17, 2015 8:51 a.m.
Ragon_Wolfbane says... #6
I'm just glad that Gideon can't be used in control decks as easily due to his requirement. The last thing they need is more planeswalker that can either be creatures or create them :/
June 17, 2015 9:11 a.m.
Ragon_Wolfbane says... #7
Also I'm looking forward to putting him into a W/R Aggro deck with Alesha, Who Smiles at Death like branston567 said.
June 17, 2015 9:13 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #8
@Rasta_Viking29
Of course he can create card advantage. His +2 is a card advantage ability. Forcing a creature of theirs to chump-attack.
June 17, 2015 9:19 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 - I agree with Rasta on this one. He's a tricky one. The only way he can create actual card advantage is if you force them to swing in AND have a creature ready to block. It's pretty conditional. He doesn't have the ability to directly kill things. He doesn't have the ability to reanimate things. He doesn't produce tokens. He's not a strong card advantage creator.
June 17, 2015 9:21 a.m.
branston567 says... #10
Ragon_Wolfbane I was thinking Naya as new Nissa seems good to me as well and that gives you access to Hornet Queen, Satyr Wayfinder among other to make better use of Nissa, however I'm struggling to get the mana to work with having Forests for her to fetch reliably and be able to hit Alesha, Who Smiles at Death turn 3 and activate her turn 5, quick rules question for those out ther, if i play a land then plus one Nissa revealing a land, does it still come into play or not?
June 17, 2015 9:23 a.m.
wait, so i know that you cant transform you creatures/planeswalkers with Moonmist because they would enter with no counters, But could you Moonmist an opponents flipwalker so it transforms without counters and dies?
June 17, 2015 9:59 a.m.
June 17, 2015 10:02 a.m. Edited.
zephramtripp says... #13
The only thing wrong with the new Gideon is that none of his abilities really win you the game, in my opinion at least.
June 17, 2015 10:19 a.m.
Gideon has never had a singular ability which screams "Win the game" on him. The best argument you could have is Gideon Jura's +2 making your opponent attack all out. What Gideon does do is turn into a 4/4 indestructible attacker that eats chump-blockers for breakfast.
June 17, 2015 10:22 a.m.
guilherme_cards says... #15
T1: Kytheon, Hero of Akros
T2: 2x Monastery SwiftspearFlip Kytheon, untap Monastery Swiftspear for block
T3: Lightning Bolt or Boros Charm or Lightning Helix
June 17, 2015 10:30 a.m.
@JWiley129 - Gideon, Champion of Justice's -15 = "Win the Game"... you float mana, ultimate, then cast something. - If you can't win, quit magic and take up competitive Tic-Tac-Toe.
June 17, 2015 11:18 a.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #17
People need to get out of magical christmas land. Your not always going to have T1 gideon because you should only run him as a 3 of because of legendary.
The probability of going T1 gideon, ornithopter, ornithopter is crazy low. The probability of going T1 gideon T2 swiftspear, swiftspear is even lower because you need T1 Battlefield Forge. He also trades with elvish mystic, and any 1/1 token unless you have 3 mana up. He's good but not nearly as good as everyone thinks.
Nissa just sucks. Her creature side is mediocre but her PW side sucks. If I have put the time and effort into getting 7 lands in play I want the reward to do something that needs answering. Nissa PW does nothing. Her +1 sucks her -2 is OK and her ulti is to far away to be relevant.
Jace could have potential in modern but I think the fact that he doesn't have a relevent body is going to hurt his chances. He's probably the easiest to flip but I feel like your opponent will probably kill him before anything happens. If he does flip and you use his "flashback" ability he's in bolt range. Standard control will probably run him as maybe 1-2 of.
Chandra is so close to being broken. (I have an idea but I'm not sure yet.) People might try her in modern jund or something like that but I think people will drop that idea after awhile because she doesn't really fit the mid range shell. She'll probably get played in standard. Not sure what deck though.
Liliana is interesting. She probably has the best chance of being played in modern. But I'm not sure how well she'll do. She has a relevant body but is hard to flip and can easily be removed in response. If she flips it's really just another LotV which is good but it's not like your opponent can have new lili PW and LotV out at the same time.
June 17, 2015 12:10 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #18
We're talking about Modern here, anything can be accomplished with the relight spells. XD besides, the Gideon and Ornithopter thing was just an example.
Anyone else notice that there seems to be a nice amount of ETB creatures?
June 17, 2015 12:19 p.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #19
Sorry for being so blunt. If I was a jerk I apologize, but what I said still stands. Also, people are already only running like 3 LotV in modern so I don't see how this changes anything. I also don't think she'll get played in standard because she is so hard to flip.
Standard doesn't really have efficient 2-3 drops like modern does (e.g. Tarmogoyf) so when she does flip her reanimate ability probably won't be as back breaking and it will probably either kill her (rabble master etc.) or it'll take a turn to set up.
June 17, 2015 12:22 p.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #20
First of all, I would hope gideon never gets played in modern in the first place as he doesn't fit any archetype and is to slow.
Second of all, if it's modern, those scenarios are even worse because Abrupt Decay, Terminate, and most importantly Lightning Bolt destroy that game plan.
Third of all, I hate to sound like a dick, but if were going into christmas land in modern. How about I win T1 with storm, amulet bloom, or griselcanon?
June 17, 2015 12:29 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #21
Oh yeah, definitely. Lili and some others won't stand much of s chance in Standard. Especially against some burn decks, then they'll just get insta-killed. I for one am more of a Modern player, so I usually tend to forget about standard.
And don't worry, you aren't being a jerk. This is viable conversation for all. :)
June 17, 2015 12:31 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #22
I don't think Godeon is slow, he can flip turn two or three in most W/R token decks in modern. Even in W/B token decks he would still do great.
June 17, 2015 12:34 p.m.
Gideon is super fantastically great for any Soldier deck or Boros or Naya standard - aggro deck. A 2/1 for 
is never, ever a bad thing for a tribal deck. Soldiers also frequently swarm as hard as slivers and elves for the first three turns. Having a new 2/1 for W that can essentially regenerate itself is bananas.
If we get the Eldrazi tokens back such as those from Nest Invader during BFZ then Liliana will be the easiest Planeswalker to flip.
June 17, 2015 12:35 p.m.
I can see some crazy mono-white affinity deck that's flippin busted in half and tries to flip Gid on T2 with Thopters. I'm sure as hell building it.
June 17, 2015 12:36 p.m.
Heh actually you know what's funny, new Gideon works great with Hammer and Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Just send your soldiers out to die and boom, new planeswalker!
June 17, 2015 12:40 p.m.
Oh yeah! Hell, we could put him in an eternal-format Phyrexian Dreadnought deck!
June 17, 2015 12:42 p.m.
Most people are fully aware of the unlikelyhood of some of their 'christmas-land' hands. - I see no reason they cannot use the 'best possible' scenario as one means of measuring a cards strength.
Besides, looking at what is in standard right now, there are a number of ways to get Kytheon to flip on T2. - Ornithopter, Lightning Berserker, Monastery Swiftspear, Kolaghan Stormsinger, Zurgo Bellstriker... 4x of each, and you've got 18+ (counting not using 4x Zurgo) creatures which can be used in combination to get Kytheon to flip on T2. - And this is simply 'optimal'... T3, or 4 is still fairly strong.
As for not using 4x Kytheon... I'm not sure you can't use 4. - Since you are able to have him transformed and another not transformed, it may be quite okay to have 2x in an opening hand.
June 17, 2015 1:12 p.m.
Holy cow there is a lot more one drop haste creatures than I thought!
I might try this out in modern after all. Mana Confluence, City of Brass, all the best 1 drop creatures and Boros Charm.
June 17, 2015 1:43 p.m.
kengiczar - Then you better hope you can win quickly. Also, if you want to go more creature-heavy you can also run Ancient Ziggurat and Cavern of Souls.
June 17, 2015 1:47 p.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #32
Rayenous you made some fair points. However, he is still not nearly as good as every one thinks.
June 17, 2015 1:51 p.m.
HolyFalcon says... #33
T1: Gideon
T2: Raise the Alarm, Swing 2
T3: Swing with tokens and Gideon, flip Gideon. Play Goblin Rabblemaster. +1 Gideon on Rabble.
June 17, 2015 1:53 p.m.
For people arguing about the planeswalkers, here is my initial reaction to how easy/hard they will be to flip. This is important for the current discussion with regards to Modern playability, even though I am putting an emphasis on Standard.
June 17, 2015 1:53 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #35
I dunno, I think that Nissa's +1 is very good for green.
June 17, 2015 1:56 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #36
I just realized that while Moonmist won't be god if you have a flip planeswalker down, it would be good to get rid of your opponents flip walkers.
If any of the flip walkers become a big enough part of the modern meta, then I could see Moonmist being run in a lot of sideboards.
June 17, 2015 3:01 p.m.
NoviceMagician - All the flip-walkers also die to Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and other popular effects. Plus you do have to jump through some hoops to get them to even flip. That's why I doubt Moonmist would be played for such a low-impact reason.
June 17, 2015 3:02 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #38
Yeah but Moonmist is less mana specific. And it could take care of multiple flip walkers at once.
I guess Lightning Bolt will stay one of the best ways to deal with them though. XD
June 17, 2015 3:07 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #39
Nissa'a +1 one is amazing for green. Gathering card advantage once Courser rotates out will be hard for green, so she definitely fills that role.
Also, I don't think flipping these PW will be too difficult in Standard especially since it seems we are getting 'flip [insert plainswalker here]' type cards with the recent spoiling of Chandra's Ignition. In fact most should be flipped the turn after they ETB. Gideon and many of the aforementioned combos can be done on T2 at the very earliest, 'Exploit' can flip Liliana quickly, Chandra already has a 'flip Chandra' card in the recently spoiled 'Chandra's Ignition', but I think Fall of the Hammer or Tail Slash are quicker options. Seven lands may seem like a lot for Nissa, but for green that isn't too difficult especially if we see a beefed up Harrow which I suspect may show up in Origins. Even Jace, whom I think is hardest to flip (mainly because the cards that help him, like Satyr Wayfinder or Commune with the Gods, fall outside of his colors) can be flipped the turn after he ETB.
I think the biggest difficulty with these PW's will be keeping them alive before they flip.
June 17, 2015 3:09 p.m.
I could only see running Moonmist if you are running Transform creatures... like Temur with Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and Delver of Secrets Flip... and that's about it. - And even then, ONLY if these walkers become VERY popular in Modern... and even then, it's probably just very bad compared to other options.
It's a funny interaction, but a bad funny interaction.
June 17, 2015 3:13 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #42
Like I said: "If any of the flip walkers become a big enough part of the modern meta, then I could see Moonmist being run in a lot of sideboards."
June 17, 2015 3:16 p.m.
Yes but like they mentioned earlier if you use Moonmist on one of these walkers it will flip with zero loyalty counters and die.
June 17, 2015 3:17 p.m.
NoviceMagician says... #44
Exactly, that is the point. You want to kill their flip walker.
June 17, 2015 3:19 p.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #45
Attack with Chandra, she gets blocked. Before Damage cast a red spell, trigger, untap Chandra, deal 1 to anything. Chandra gets dealt 2 (or more, whatever), but has dealt 3. Does Chandra still come back as a walker or is she dead and gone? The trigger reads no "at the end of combat" or anything, and if I'm not mistaken the trigger should happen before state-based actions are checked and Chandra goes to the yard.
June 17, 2015 4:18 p.m.
Tidebreaker - Chandra, and Gideon, have to be on the battlefield in order to transform. So if Chandra dies during that dealing 3, she will not come back flipped. It's the same type of deal if you put the trigger/ability on the stack and they get killed by Doom Blade et al. They will stay dead and not come back as a 'walker.
June 17, 2015 4:31 p.m.
Ragon_Wolfbane says... #47
I'm hoping for some good Black spells for Origins so that I can make a B/W Token deck with Gideon and Sorin, Solemn Visitor in it for standard <3
June 17, 2015 4:32 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #48
JWiley129, Tidebreaker - futher to that, it's important to note that for Chandra (and Jace), the transformation is a part of the activated ability.
So under Tidebreaker's situation, even if Chandra survived combat, she wouldn't transform.
"Before Damage cast a red spell, trigger, untap Chandra, deal 1 to anything."
After the 1 damage is dealt, the ability will continue to resolve, checking if Chandra has done 3 more more damage this turn - if it has, she exiles right then and there (and would be removed from combat). If she hasn't (as in this case) then the exile doesn't trigger.
If she then went on to deal 2 damage in combat, there's not an exile trigger on the stack anymore, so there's no ability to transform her (unless you cast another red spell and have her do another point of damage).
June 17, 2015 6:25 p.m.
I think that Gwynen will see play in Modern Elves out of the sideboard against Burn/Aggressive decks. What do you think (2GG, Reach, 3/4, Other Elves get +1/+1, When she attacks gain 1 life for each attacking Elf)
June 17, 2015 8:45 p.m.
So I like the new elf but sadly I don't see enough to make an elf deck... It's like centaurs recently... There was a centaur lord but no centaur decks because of no other good centaurs...
smackjack says... #1
Also, the PW side of Gideon has one good mode, the 0. So by spending another 3 mana you can turn your 2/1 into a 4/4 that cant block. Thats a total investment of 4 mana and waiting a turn for summoning sickness. Gideon is not that good
June 17, 2015 7:31 a.m.