Magic Origins SPOILERS!
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 8, 2015, 1:03 a.m. by JWiley129
MaRo's article got spoiled early, so we have some SPICY Previews with "new" mechanics!
TL;DR: Menace is replacing Intimidate & Landwalk, Prowess is now evergreen primary in Blue secondary in Red and maybe tertiary in White, and Protection is now deciduous used only as necessary.
Magic Origins Card Image Gallery
CaptainCaveman says... #2
Just took a look at what has been spoiled thus far and I am really loving the artwork of many of the cards. They look incredible. The artists really put some thought into it.
June 8, 2015 10:19 p.m.
@JWiley129 Even as a new player, I understood such concepts as protection and layering. How? I can READ and use logic. But in the event that a card doesn't possess reminder text, a player can simply ask another player, a judge, or the massive repository of knowledge that is the internet. And keep in mind that the concept we're debating-protection-is so simple that it can be explained by a four letter acronym. This whole "That's too complex for new players, we can't use it too much" thing is just a weak excuse Wizards uses to dumb down Magic and weaken cards. Probably the most recent example I can remember of this-besides this whole protection thing-was in the article that spoiled Empty the Pits, where the writer said that we don't get 
spells too often because they're too complex for new players. Yep, it sure is hard to understand that you have to pay twice. Can't wait till 2020, when Magic is literally just playing big dudes and running them into other big dudes, and whoever's big dudes are more expensive wins.
June 8, 2015 11:08 p.m.
Doge - Magic is a hard enough game without having to do that. Do you know how many times new players mess up Shroud? Or Hexproof? Or Protection? All the time! YOU are not representative of every new player. Go look at the 30 card intro decks in today's Arcana. You will see nothing as complicated as Protection. Those are designed to get newer players adapted to the VERY complicated game of MtG without frontloading the complexity of mechanics like protection.
And yes, spells are confusing to some players. Things are confusing to others that aren't confusing to you. Get off your high horse and accept the fact that you are in the minority and that Magic isn't made only for you.
June 8, 2015 11:14 p.m.
Christ alive, guys.
WHO CARES how complex Magic is. Take your stupid argument over to another forum if you want. This thread is for Magic: Origins spoilers, NOT a debate about how complicated Protection is.
Geez guys, seriously...
June 8, 2015 11:33 p.m.
@Runlue My apologies, I'm just sticking up for the average new player by refuting the classic stereotype that they're so stupid that they can't understand simple things like the difference between shroud and hexproof and attempting to stop Magic from being lame. But you're right, we should discuss spoilers. There are a lot of cool cards (and I'm hoping Serum Visions gets reprinted) but I do hope that the white Legend's paltry power level isn't indicative of the legend cycle overall. I want cool Commanders like Krenko and Talrand!
June 8, 2015 11:41 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #7
I think it was more a discussion (at least in the beginning!) than an argument, Runlue...and it did pertain to the information spoiled about the set, so I'd contend that it was on-topic.
I'm sorry if you found it stupid or if it bothered you, though.
June 9, 2015 12:08 a.m. Edited.
Schuesseled says... #8
New players always struggle with the rules, lets not worry about it.
June 9, 2015 2:38 a.m.
JWiley129 - I think youre actually being really patronising with the assumption that all new players are stupid and all new players can't ask questions. You're doing a lot of people a disservice.
Though you accidentally hit on the point of the argument: "Magic isn't made only for you". That's correct. Why should it be made only for them? Including some protection stuff doesn't mean it's made ONLY for us it just means some more complicated cards are offered. Its not the whole set - its a tiny fraction and minority. By removing these complications you are offering nothing to us. In essence you are revolving the entire game of magic around people that you're babying.
You also haven't provided evidence that the game of magic in a core sense is complicated? Because as far as I'm concerned; its not. It's the cards that make it so.
June 9, 2015 3:26 a.m. Edited.
Essentially I think it's possible to appeal to two player bases and wizards are being very, very cautious and narrow minded by making it so that even less appeals to those who enjoy complication and even more appeals to those who don't. Because let's be honest, even at the moment, most sets are like 90% easy to follow and 10% have front loaded challenge.
I don't think that narrow 10% is enough to exclaim 'IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU'.
June 9, 2015 3:30 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #11
They aren't removing anything that truly did anything for the game...
Intimate: hardly used outside of casual and even then who builds with intimidate in mind??
Shroud: been gone for years. Nothing really new here.
Landwalk: just a redundant more narrow unblockable. Got some good use but the game outgrew the need for it
Protection: not actually gone. They will use it less often. The arguments seem so moot at this point.
June 9, 2015 3:36 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #12
Oh also facebook has it that no Serum Visions in origins. Not sure of source yet
June 9, 2015 3:41 a.m.
To quote ChiefBell: "By removing these complications you are offering nothing to us."
That is exactly how I feel.
June 9, 2015 3:46 a.m.
You are all whining about issues that don't exist.
They aren't dumbing down the game. They're pruning. Landwalk is archaic. It's uninteractive and fairly boring. Protection as well... Since its inception it was clunky - not because of complexity, but because it's a mechanic that can over-simplify the game. Cards that punish what color you play can be oppressive and game-ruining. Printing a low amount of protection abilities (I much prefer it as a one off spell like god's willing instead of an ability) leaves room for a larger variety of cards to have their intended effect.
I don't want to imply that protection brings nothing to the game, just that there are better design paths that make for a better game. Same for landwalk. It is good that they are moving towards other areas of the game. There are only five colors - abilities based on card colors are going to be inherently restrictive based on limited selection.
June 9, 2015 10:10 a.m.
They didn't get rid of Protection altogether, they just took it out of the "Core." It's not just that it's complicated, (do you need an acronym like DEBT to remember how anything else in the game works?) but that it is underpowered/overpowered depending on the match-up. This second point carried over for Intimidate.
As for , I spend three days trying to explain that to a new player a few weeks ago.
Evergreening prowess seems like quite the boon for blue....
June 9, 2015 10:10 a.m.
@ ChiefBell - Granted, but that's deeper into the game than a keyword. I guess I should have said "do you need an acronym like DEBT to remember how any other keyword or ability in the game works?" Trample and First/Doublestrike can have their issues, too, but not to acronym-constructing levels.
June 9, 2015 10:18 a.m.
Eh. Not to the same extent. But my point is that protection is literally the ONE exception to that. So what's the problem? WHy take away the last bastion of complexity?
June 9, 2015 10:20 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #19
ChiefBell, if you think that protection is the only thing that makes Magic complex ("The last bastion of complexity") then you're playing a very different game than I am.
June 9, 2015 10:25 a.m.
I think that its among the last thing thats been printed in recent sets.
People keep bringing up blood moon etc. These cards have been and gone. Where are the recent examples?
So yeah, I do think that.
Edit: or everyone is severely overestimating how difficult Magic is.
June 9, 2015 10:26 a.m. Edited.
In other news, this set is bursting from the seams with Limited commons. Also a ton of reprints of cards that are already legal in Standard.
June 9, 2015 10:48 a.m.
We already have two limited playable black 'destroy target creature' cards at common!
June 9, 2015 10:52 a.m.
I LOVE the idea of Menace. My Boros heroic aggro deck is based almost solely off of the effect through Madcap Skills and Iroas, God of Victory. It's often overlooked, and it's extraordinarily powerful. Especially if you can use removal to make your creatures essentially unblockable.
June 9, 2015 11:02 a.m.
Hopefully we get something like "enchanted creature has Menace".
June 9, 2015 11:04 a.m.
Spoiler season hasn't started yet. The cards that were spoiled are part of a theme deck. Official spoilers should start in 2-3 weeks.
June 9, 2015 11:28 a.m.
Yes lots but they're mainly reprints of cards that are already in standard. Can see them if you go onto mythicspoiler and scroll all the way to the bottom.
June 9, 2015 11:28 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #30
Putrefy that's what I thought, yesterday confused me. Thanks.
June 9, 2015 11:32 a.m. Edited.
UrbanAnathema says... #31
With regard to the "dumbing down of the game" argument, I think there is a valid criticism there. Wizards has been actively trying to reduce the complexity of the game, and by all accounts it seems to have worked. MTG is more popular than ever.
As a player since the early 90s, I too lament the loss of some of the more complicated interactions. Removing things like Protection is something that I find to be a further reduction of what I find enjoyable about the game. However I think simplifying has been good for the game by and large, and what is good for the game is generally good for us.
Johnny can still be Johnny, and so long as that's the case, things will be fine.
We're a long way off from becoming Yu-Gi-Oh.
June 9, 2015 11:52 a.m.
Eh. I feel like theres a lot less Johnny-ing to be done in standard sets now as compared to a few years ago. And I can legitimately make that comparison because I've been playing for years now.
June 9, 2015 12:06 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #33
ChiefBell I think you're right, and as a Johnny I don't really like Standard at all. If Standard is the format that they envision for newer players to get their feet wet in constructed, I'm ok with that to a certain extent.
June 9, 2015 12:12 p.m.
Well, sure but the knock on effect is that no new, interesting, complex, challenging cards then enter modern or legacy/vintage. Like I was saying; yes we have blood moon, yes there's humility etc., but I would like that kind of thing to continue, not to end.
June 9, 2015 12:16 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #35
There can be new cards that create new interactions in the eternal formats, simply because the new card is only half of the interaction generally. Protection isn't going away, they're merely limiting how much they utilize it in new sets. While that's something that I generally am not going to be cheering about, I don't think its that big a step toward further dumbing down the game. Its a small step further down the road of a larger trend, that while I personally don't love...I see the benefits of for the game as a whole.
June 9, 2015 12:23 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #37
VampireArmy your news about Serum Visions has saddened me.
June 9, 2015 12:31 p.m.
I'm gonna jump into the argument about "core set is supposed to be less complicated to help new players" argument.
I've been teaching my dad how to play magic recently. He's a very smart guy, graduated from Harvard, was a lawyer for many years in New York City, and is now working for a venture capitalism firm. He's sixty. Some thing's about magic he's picked up pretty easily, others, not so much. Protection... was a huge issue. Especially on multi colored cards. One thing that specifically comes to mind was when he was attacking with a Boros Reckoner into my Blood Baron of Vizkopa. "It's pro white dad, it's not going to get through." "no, it's also red, that should make the pro white not count". It literally took an hour of arguing and me finding multiple forum posts explaining how protection worked, in detail, before he accepted it. Hexproof was another issue. "Why does that kill it, it's got hexproof?" "it's a board wipe, it doesn't actually target". I've had to explain that multiple times.
Other things, like scry, were very easy to explain. The issue isn't that the concept's are too hard, it's that there are so many concepts that they kind of start to blur together and make remembering them all kind of hard.
I will say, that the sheet that comes with new decks with all the keywords on it, has been incredibly helpful.
June 9, 2015 1:46 p.m.
I'm not saying that these aren't concepts that anyone can't understand eventually. With some time, of course they are explainable. However, some of them, like protection, are annoying enough that it's going to put some people off. Wizards can make more money off of having simple concepts to bring new people in than they will lose over people "quitting" because of "wizards dumbing down the game". Because let's face it, no one's going to quit over them having less cards with protection, but people might decide the game isn't worth understanding if it's too complicated at first.
June 9, 2015 1:49 p.m.
kyuuri117: He doesn't sound very intelligent. Being red and white aren't mutually exclusive states. Just because it IS red doesn't make it NOT white. Sorry bro.
June 9, 2015 1:49 p.m.
Its fine protection is still in.
Appealing to the lowest common denominator is great.
Long live impatient people.
The worst thing about any game is BOTHERING to understand the rules.
Why should we be expected to do that? God.
Sorry I just find this incredibly amusing.
Edit: because we are just completely arbitrarily deciding what is hard to understand and what isn't. Next they'll remove tap abilities on creatures with vigilance. TOO HARD!
June 9, 2015 1:51 p.m. Edited.
ChiefBell I get where you're coming from and i get that you're upset over wizards dumbing down the game but insulting my dad over something that is not easily understandable to a new player doesn't make sense to me.
He thought that the "pro white" clause applied to creatures that were "only white" and that gold bordered cards were different. He thought that the blood baron would have had to have said, "protection from redwhite creatures". I tried to explain that the red/white symbols were just showing that the card was both a red and a white card, but as a new player, who had only been playing for a few days, he thought that the mixed symbols meant the card was different.
That doesn't make him unintelligent, that makes he a confused newbie, and being insulting because you're upset over having to "cater to the lowest common denominator" is kind of elitist and pretty rude.
June 9, 2015 2 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #43
Yeah, I wouldn't have gone there ChiefBell. That was a bit far man.
June 9, 2015 2:01 p.m. Edited.
If you raise a point in an argument then it's fair game to counter that point? Don't want people to insult your father's intelligence? Don't specifically mention your father's intelligence!
This is a basic logic fail. Just because something has one state, does not mean it is not another state. I understand the mistake he made but it bewilders me how ANYONE could think being red stops it from being white? What?
I think you raised his intelligence specifically to say 'he is an intelligent man and still did not understand this'. Given that you raised it with a purpose, it is my job to refute that point. I'm sorry but you're asking for trouble if you say 'someone I know has X but does something the compelte opposite of X'
Edit: to make it clear what you just did was essentially say: 'I am going to raise this counterexample to your point but you are not allowed to argue against it because then I will get offended'. Which is obviously really poor form.
June 9, 2015 2:09 p.m. Edited.
OtakulordAndrew says... #45
Well I'm glad that menace now has an official name and is becoming evergreen as that should make for some interesting future cards. Scry being evergreen will definitely be interesting depending on how strong the cards they put it on are. I'm not sure how I feel about prowess being evergreen, maybe we'll get some decent creatures in it to support blue but that feels like they are trying to move away from blue's roots as a heavily counter spell and draw spell oriented color to a more creature based strategy. On the note of spoilers I'm looking forward to see what other cards start to get revealed after seeing avaricious dragon which looks like it will be a fun card to build around with some graveyard shenanigans and as a late game method of gaining some extra card advantage.
June 9, 2015 2:13 p.m.
Blue sorely lacked some kind of combat mechanic. Im very glad that it has one to call its own. Like I'm almost universally impressed with the changes.
June 9, 2015 2:14 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #47
People can be intelligent Chief and still find certain rules or interactions within a new game to be counterintuitive ChiefBell. It doesn't mean they're stupid.
June 9, 2015 2:15 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #48
So by that logic, if I don't trip while walking most of the time, but sometimes I do, that makes me a complete klutz all the time? That kind of logic doesn't stack up, and quite frankly it's the same logic that's used by a lot of hate groups nowadays ("I saw a few [insert quality here] people doing this thing that I don't like, so all of them must do that and I'm going to make sure they all pay for it.").
June 9, 2015 2:19 p.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #49
ChiefBell- the goal to improve the internet and humanity in general should be "Don't insult anybody ever." It only diminishes your own credibility. The Golden Rule should still apply to internet conversations the same as those held face-to-face.
June 9, 2015 2:20 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #50
Can I ask all those who want to debate this matter to go here please so that we may discuss actual spoilers and rumors on this thread?
AwesomeName says... #1
I think that the new dragon is cool. I am happy that prowess and scry are now evergreen. I am excited to see the rest of the cards, especially the walkers. I do hope though that that Chandra was fake.
June 8, 2015 10:05 p.m.