Misinformation about the "land cycle"
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on July 17, 2015, 11:26 a.m. by kbarnhart
I keep reading threads on here about how "wizards wants to print full cycles of land from now on" so therefore by that logic we MUST be getting the enemy fetchlands reprinted.
WRONG!
If any of you follow Mark Rosewarer (MTG Head Designer) he has a blog on Tumblr called Blogatog and he has said that the majority of people misunderstood that statement from Wizards of the Coast regarding printing full land cycles.
He has said that what they meant when they said that is that they want a full cycle of COLOR PAIRS in a set. Not a full cycle of the same land type. Wizards simply wants there to always we access to each dual color land within a standard block setting.
This means we could see enemy pain lands and ally colored scry lands for example.
Back in the day Wizards used to make it easier to play "ally" color pairs and they are now realizing it makes more sense to allow players to have access to whatever they want and thus "We would like to have a full cycle of each color pair" is what they actually meant.
So can we stop the posts about how they NEED to print they other fetches because they said they will always complete a cycle from now on?
Thank you.
The still NEED to reprint those fetches though. Simply cause I don't have any and won't spend the money to get them at the current prices
July 17, 2015 11:31 a.m. Edited.
I'm not doubting that they will see a reprint, but when they do it won't be because of some sort of contractual obligation that WotC has lol.
July 17, 2015 11:34 a.m.
HolyFalcon says... #6
Speaking of PSA and featured, shouldn't Origins Spoilers be unfeatured?
July 17, 2015 11:44 a.m.
WovenNebula says... #7
Buy Zen fetches now! Lol You know there will be a guaranteed buy out.
July 17, 2015 noon
CanadianShinobi says... #8
Wait, you're saying that Mark Rosewater, a man known for never being clear was misinterpreted? Well golly mister!
July 17, 2015 12:07 p.m.
"... but when they do it won't be because of some sort of contractual obligation that WotC has lol."
I know you're being half-serious here, but this is exactly why they reprinted shock-lands in RTR. Shocks were all $25-$40 and were the essential lands in a brand-new format that was already having trouble getting off the ground.
Modern has seen a ton of gorwth over the past 18 months or so, but enemy fetches are in higher demand right now than they ever have been and I don't see that demand falling any time soon.
July 17, 2015 1:45 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #10
But in all seriousness, kbarnhart, when you say, "So can we stop the posts about how they NEED to print they other fetches because they said they will always complete a cycle from now on? " I'm given the impression that you either don't play Modern, or don't understand why a reprint is being begged for.
So, to answer your rhetorical question, no. Because, quite frankly, if Wizards desires for Modern to ever be accessible as a format then they will need to reprint the fetchlands at some point. They will also need to reprint nearly every staple common and uncommon as well.
I just find it funny that they promote Modern, but then they keep changing their goals for Standard and how they want that to play out. And yet their goals for Standard do not often coincide with their goal of promoting Modern. For example: Wizards does not print Modern viable cards intentionally.
July 17, 2015 3:33 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #11
I'm all for new and exciting cards in my Standard and Limited environments, not really all that interested in a bunch of reprints. Modern players really need to stop acting so self-centered and needy. Take a step back and look at the big MtG picture. If you don't like how Modern functions then find a new format or deal with it. Everyone else shouldn't have to suffer just so Modern is more enjoyable for a minority. Standard and Limited are bigger $$$ earners for WotC and more popular among the player base. WotC also promotes both formats above Modern and they certainly aren't making Modern the flagship format. Hell they weren't going to even do a Modern Pro Tour until a vocal minority pissed and moaned about how Wizards doesn't care for the format. Forcing LGSs to run Modern or Limited PPTQs this season probably resulted in many unprofitable tournaments due to low attendance at the Modern ones and sealed product requirements at Limited ones.
So yeah regardless of whether you feel the need to, please stop trying to ram your format of choice down our throats. You'll get fetch reprints when you get em, annoying us won't help.
July 17, 2015 4:19 p.m.
MinscAndBoo says... #12
Why would Wizards reprint enemy fetches so soon? Battle for Zendikar is going to be exciting enough without them. Maybe when a less heavily-anticipated expansion comes out they'll throw in the other half of the fetches, to motivate us.
Having said that, it does seem kind of weird to not reprint the full set in the same format. Imagine Return to Ravnica with only ally-colored shocks...
July 17, 2015 4:34 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #13
Ravnica is a different story because it was built around all ten two color pairings.
July 17, 2015 7:16 p.m.
wjohnson936 says... #14
I BELIEVE THAT ALL LANDS WERE CREATED EQUAL WITH CERTAIN INALIENABLE RIGHTS. END LAND DISCRIMINATION 2015. #ELD2015
(EXCEPT THE MANLANDS. SCREW THE MANLANDS. WHAT, YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT IF YOU'RE A CREATURE OR NOT?)
July 17, 2015 8:21 p.m.
Personally I would rather play against decks that are at the same/greater level than mine. I can beat on all the decks that aren't up to their full potential all day and be bored. I just like challenges.
I'm also in favor of reprinting the enemy color fetchlands and maybe some enemy colored man-lands.
July 17, 2015 10:09 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 ~ while I understand your words I feel like you're missing the big picture.
Serum Visions is a $14 COMMON for God's sake. I really don't see anything wrong with people asking for reprints.
I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what the OP is getting at is mis-placed hype regarding the fetches.
What I mean directly by big picture is not everyone LIKES standard. Granted barrier to entry is WAY lower but I hate the feeling of tuning a deck only to have a big chunk of it rotate out. In point of fact, I can't afford to get into modern because of that higher barrier. Modern is a format (imho) for ppl that like continuity. As much as wizards has been pushing modern it does make sense to reprint the zen fetches. BUT....
And this is where I'm with you and the OP. I wonder if it ever occurred to those "hypers" that they reprinted the onslaught fetches because they were NOT planning to reprint the ZEN fetches. Ppl need to stop needlessly hyping things up. Because then when it doesn't happen, those same ppl are all "Oh man WotC just doesn't listen to us."
We have to remember that the dev team works 2 YEARS ahead on set releases.
TLDR: im okay with voicing the desire for a reprint of X staple or Y staple but the senseless hyping just annoys me
July 17, 2015 10:16 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #17
Bellock86 I suspect you are right and I have had the same thoughts regarding the reprinted Onslaught Fetches. However, I still believe Wizards cares very little for its Modern player base. This is why I brought up the fact that Wizards has two conflicting ideologies in terms of development.
- They want to promote Modern and have it be played widely.
- They do not print Modern relevant cards in Standard intentionally. And lately they have been moving away from cards such as non conditional removal and powerful non-creature spells. Both of which are fairly important in a format like Modern.
Essentially, they can't have it both ways. At least, that's how I see the situation.
Rasta_Viking29 While I agree Modern players can be rather pushy at times, I do believe there is some legitimacy to such behaviour. Wizards, as of late, has done a lackluster job of managing Modern as a format. They've done a great deal to frustrate the Modern community. Much of what Modern players desire, aren't fetch lands, but many of the staple commons and uncommons. As the format grows these things become increasingly expensive and Wizards, it seems to many, simply does not care. And Standard reprints are unlikely because of the conflicting design ideologies that seem to be present currently. With only a biennial product to lower Modern prices, it simply is not enough to maintain Modern as a format. A format, I might add, that is growing increasingly popular.
July 17, 2015 10:34 p.m.
CanadianShinobi ~ I have also perceived some duplicity regarding WotC and Modern.
I was called out in another thread for suggesting that they use modern masters to actually reprint more modern staples than just goyfs and a FEW others.
My exact words were:
"Serum Visions? You got it. Snapcaster Mage? Done Tarmogoyf? In and a rare."
I was basically told that I really can't complain about prices as I'm not entitled to play modern. If I wanna play I have to pay up.
That mentality seems very counterproductive to me. I get that even MM has to have random stuff to make limited fun and interesting. And also that wizards gets nothing out of secondary market. But shouldn't that also be the point?
I understand paying for staples. Been doing it for a decade and a half. But $150 for Tarmogoyf. Yeah right. $14 for Serum Visions? When hell freezes over.
I'll homebrew my own janky deck and hope I get lucky before I shell out that kind of money. I have a wife and kids to take care of and lack sufficient trades to get what I need to make a truly competetive deck.
It seems to me (and I will admit thismay be short sighted) that it would make perfect sense for wizards to make a "Modern Goodstuff" limited product to get things like the commons and uncommons out there without nerfing an actual MM limited experience.
Or also just make MM available to places like walmart so LGS can't hike the ppp (price per pack) up to $11 fucking dollars just because you have a ghost in a hells chance of getting a goyf.
Sorry for yet another rant but I just think wizards is basically saying "We really want modern to be popular" while doing NOTHING of any real merit to get much needed commons and uncommons and several rares into people's hands.
July 17, 2015 11:12 p.m.
fluffybunnypants ~ that was totally hysterical.
But it's late and I have no idea what that was supposed to connect to. Like, we don't know what we really want?
Also that guy wasn't saying anything about magic unless I've forgotten every single word of spanish I've ever learned. Lol
Captions were spot on though. Lol
July 17, 2015 11:19 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #21
Bellock86 Though you and I are at different points in our lives, we share simillar ideas. You have a wife and kids; I am a recent univerity graduate with loans. Different, but similar enough, especially with out hobby of choice.
Now, I understand Tarmogoyf's price. Of course it is absurd, but it's an old card that has great relevance in Modern. Reprinting it at mythic has done little to lower its price, which is sad, considering it is a fundamental staple of nearly all competitive green decks.
I also agree that complaining about certain prices is perfectly acceptable. Especially consider that Wizards wants people to play Modern. The counter argument that "its's a trading card game" is absurd in this situation, especially since the overseeing powers want this format to be played. Yes, there must be a barrier to entry, yes it must be higher than Standard, but at no point should it cost $15 or more dollars for a common. That defeats the purpose of wanting people to play the format. Especially if those people are like myself and lay Control.
July 18, 2015 1:09 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #22
CanadianShinobi I understand the need to be aggressive in recruiting to grow the format. Reprints are another thing. Lately Modern has got some sweet toys in my opinion and WotC has delivered a handful of playables in each set. There haven't been a ton of reprints in new expert sets but they are typically high impact and play a big part in selling the set. I dug this article up for you, litteraly took 15 some odd Google searches so you better read it :P It explains how Wizards manages its card bank account and individual card equity through reprints. Visions is a FNM promo and seems like it could sell a Commander deck or a Conspiracy set. That is where reprints of cards like Visions will most likely show up.
I'm terms of Modern, the format presently is not viable. It naturally wants to be Legacy Lite but design and a decent percentage of the players want it to be more akin to Extended without rotations. The precedent they have set with bans invalidating players' investments is bad. Not a healthy way to keep the meta interesting. In my opinion they need to unban a lot of things and people need to accept that prices will be steep. Magic is a luxury and not all of us can afford the eternal formats, earning the freedom to do as you please is motivation to succed in life. People want to do broken things in Magic and Legacy has it's coffin nailed shut by the reserved list. Unban Brainstom on a stick, Recall, BBE, etc, print Daze in Standard, and let the games begin. Yeah it'll take a pretty penny but these investments would be safe and it'd be a hell of a format. Budget Modern is still a thing and is great for casual play. I don't think there is a better format for an innovator and brew lover.
July 18, 2015 2:43 a.m. Edited.
"people need to accept that prices will be steep."
So you, who have heavily implied you're not a Modern player a few comments up, are telling the people who play Modern "Your format will always be expensive, and I don't want anything done about it because those reprints will make my format worse."
I really don't understand why any Standard player would complain about good Modern stuff getting Standard printings. Not only does it help you get into Modern if you want to, it also makes Standard a more powerful format, which is more fun. The only people harmed by Modern reprints in Standard are the people who already own the stuff being reprinted, and that's not really harmful to them.
July 18, 2015 5:05 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 - +1 to the article you linked. Though I think a fetchland reprint would sell BFZ like hot cakes. As it explains in the article they need something to push a set and make it sell. Fetches could be that thing. Might not be though.
I don't think modern players are entitled to hijack every last standard set thay comes out but if a reprint makes both financial and flavour sense AND is fun in a standard environs then why not?
July 18, 2015 8:36 a.m.
Enemy fetches will be in BFZ. And the fact that they printed enemy pain lands in Origins shows theyre also reprinting allied manlands, BC why would you print 3 cycles of enemy lands and no allied lands? thats stupid.
July 18, 2015 11:55 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #26
wish12oz do you have any sort of back-up for that statement or is that just pointless conjecturing?
July 18, 2015 12:25 p.m.
It's common sense.
Return to Ravnica brought back that land cycle for modern to make it more accessible, something WotC has said repeatedly they want to do. Then they reprinted allied fetches to finish the modern cycle and make them cheap as soon as those rotated out. Meanwhile enemy fetch lands were left out of both MM sets, all the commander products, and everything else. If you think they're not being reprinted I got a stack of enemy fetch lands I will sell you for a "good deal" since you know, theyre gonna spike up in price like everything else that doesn't get printed.
As for the allied manlands, I don't know if they will reprint the old ones or make new ones, but Zendikar is the land set. That's what it does. They wouldn't go back to Ravnica and not use the guilds. They will not return to Zendikar and not print a bunch of lands. There will be another cycle of rare lands in the set for allied colors. There would be no rare allied color land cycle in standard if there wasn't, and that's not something wizards would do, as explained in the OP, and with the allied manlands already being a thing, and them already reprinting the fetches, it makes sense they'd bring the original manlands back also IMO.
But seriously, they're going to reprint the enemy fetches.Common sense.
July 18, 2015 12:39 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #28
What you're saying does make sense, but you also have to remember that the 'Zards aren't exactly known for following formulas. Sometimes they are (reprinting the shocks in RTR) but most times they're just out of nowhere (who the hell expected the Onslaught fetches to get reprinted in Khans, a set that basically had nothing to do with the Onslaught storyline?).
We shall see though. I would like to see manland reprints, personally, as I need a playset of Creeping Tar Pit for my Modern deck I'm working on, but I don't see enough right now to "guarantee" a reprint.
July 18, 2015 12:48 p.m.
I think it will be a toss up to see what lands wizards reprints or if they make new ones. My thought is that if theyre not going to make a new type of land then what they'll do is possibly reprint the other half of the fetches. My logic behind this is that wizards in clearly pushing modern hard, though the promo path to exile, promo serum visions, and the reprinting of the old fetches right after they pull shock lands out of standard making the land base and some powerful cards more easily accessible to players who are attempting to get into it.
But i also believe that wizards would benefit from making the other half of the man lands that they didn't print in the zen block the first time. I actually find the other half of the man lands more of a realistic possibility. The half of the man lands that have been printed already are used in modern keeping the idea of the modern push constant.
While i recognize it wouldn't break standard due to the loss of life from fetches, that many fetches would make delve just insane there fore making a blue black control shell with Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Murderous Cut just unfair.
Also we have to keep in mind Wizards held off on the fetches till shocks rotated out. They could just simply hold off on the other fetches till this set of fetches rotates out.
This is just my way of thinking if you have any other ideas try to be nice about them at least.
July 18, 2015 5:48 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #30
I'd be happy if they just finished the River of Tears cycle.
July 18, 2015 6:19 p.m.
Ill apologize for the double post now but this needs to be added.
Now that they're done with printing core sets, I almost wonder if we'll see half a set of dual lands for every set because of how things will be rotating so maybe they lead off with some amazing cards in battle for zen and the man lands, the less wanted lands then in zendikar vs eldrazi the fetches
July 18, 2015 6:22 p.m.
People who have the zendikar-fetches don't want reprints as their "deck value" would be lowered, people who don't have fetches and don't want to pay 500 for a propper landbase, because then you can also go play legacy or vintage, need the fetches to get started with modern.
It's pretty much senseless to debate about it. Wizards will do stuff, and noone can ever understand why they do the stuff they do in the way they do it, there is no way to take influence it either.
I hope the fetchies get reprinted, just to see all the haters burst in rage. There are some really strange creatures here who take tappedout way to serious. My advice for those people: "Going outside is like opening the window, just more intense!"
July 19, 2015 10:13 a.m.
canterlotguardian Actually one of my friends knew that the onslaught fetches would be printed in khans around mid Born of the Gods. Dunno how he found out but apparently someone at WotC card development leaked it. It didn't go viral, but I listened to him, didn't buy the fetches (I needed some for legacy and decided waiting couldn't hurt), and yep, they were reprinted.
July 19, 2015 8:27 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #34
@canterlotguardian, that cycle does seem fun and very Zendikar-esque.
July 19, 2015 10:17 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #35
You know what really grinds my gears?
People who say that they need Zendikar fetches for Legacy/Vintage/now Modern. Guess what? Those ONS/KTK fetches? They do almost literally the exact same thing, just in different color combinations. That Wooded Foothills? It can fetch your Breeding Pool just as easily as your Misty Rainforest can, for about a third of the price. Flooded Strand says "hi" to your Steam Vents as naturally as your Scalding Tarn does, again for a third of the price.
There are some things I can somewhat understand about MTG economics/player deckbuilding decisions... And then there's this.
July 20, 2015 8:07 a.m.
@canterlotguardian the only time I don't agree with you about that is if someone is getting them for edh or tiny leaders but it is only a one of. if you could get that one of for around $20 vs $50 that'd be nice. You did bring up a good point
July 20, 2015 11:24 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #37
canterlotguardian while you raise a good point, it is also worthwhile to note that sometimes you actually do need those Zendikar fetches in a deck. Especially if you want proper colour fixing for the deck. Yes, the reprinted fetches do nearly the exact same thing, however there are plenty of circumstances where they don't. This is especially true when needing to fetch basics. Perhaps this is less applicable to casual play, or even FNM players, but what about those who want to get into something a little more competitive and are hoping the Zen reprints will help bring their goals to fruition either through a price drop, or simply being more widely available.?
July 20, 2015 noon
Jamesfurrow says... #38
I think whats going on is people want badly the perfect mana correction of having all fetches in their deck's mana base and not a fetch that can only get 1 of the 3 shock lands you run. That use to be how it worked in moderns early days and people dont want go be struggling with that. So i can understand as a player why we all want the fetches in battle for zendikar. But i doubt they will because wizards does NOT want perfect mana in standard. I am not saying they dont make it possible for any color combination to be played but to have all fetches in standard would also be like having all the shocks in rtr (it couldnt be helped there due ravnica having all 10 guilds so for story purpose it needed to be done) but i digress. I though think they will print man lands. I would love to see a golgari man land!! Gimmie lands to smack people with please
July 20, 2015 12:32 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #39
I was speaking specifically of non-singleton formats like Legacy/Vintage/Modern, as I said in my comment. Obviously EDH/TL is a different story.
July 20, 2015 12:37 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #40
awphutt I think you've missed the point.
So you, who have heavily implied you're not a Modern player a few comments up, are telling the people who play Modern "Your format will always be expensive, and I don't want anything done about it because those reprints will make my format worse."
It will be expensive because basic economic principles and game design dictate so. Not sure why you're trying to spin me saying Wizards should do what is best for the game, its bank account, and the majority of its players into "I want what I want at your expense". Choosing to get all huffy because reality doesn't line up with your opinions and desires is irrational in this case.
I really don't understand why any Standard player would complain about good Modern stuff getting Standard printings. Not only does it help you get into Modern if you want to, it also makes Standard a more powerful format, which is more fun. The only people harmed by Modern reprints in Standard are the people who already own the stuff being reprinted, and that's not really harmful to them.
This is a common misconception. A card's power level is not analogous across formats. Cards like Elspeth, Sun's Champion are a house in Standard and un-playable in Modern. Other cards like Deathrite Shaman are overpowered in Modern and relatively under-powered without proper support in Standard. Some cards like Siege Rhino are powerful in both and not impactful enough for Legacy. A lot of it boils down to pace of play, Standard is slower which allows opportunities for more inherently powerful cards with higher mana costs to be played. Modern has many more options at lower cmcs that provide enough game winning advantage to out tempo the more expensive powerful effects.
Power level is also irrelevant to having a good Standard format. Balance, the number of viable strategies, and fluctuation of the meta are what really matters. Standard players enjoy exploring new cards, playing different decks, adjusting to the obstacles new decks pose in an ever changing meta, and overcoming the limitations of working with a smaller card pool. It's when there's a card that is too powerful that it keeps showing up in multiple top archetypes stifling diversity that people get bored and frustrated with Standard. Sure they could just print more cards on that card's power level but that would just slowly kill the game through power creep.
July 20, 2015 1:28 p.m.
It will be expensive because basic economic principles and game design dictate so. Not sure why you're trying to spin me saying Wizards should do what is best for the game, its bank account, and the majority of its players into "I want what I want at your expense". Choosing to get all huffy because reality doesn't line up with your opinions and desires is irrational in this case.
It will always be expensive, but it needn't be excessively so. And I'm curious as to why you think that reprinting the Zendikar fetches is bad for Standard, for Wizards sales, and for Standard players. The KTK fetches are heavily played currently, by every deck playing colours that support them, along with many that aren't. In some cases, this is for delve purposes, but by and large it's for mana fixing. And being able to cast your spells is a good thing regardless of the format, and so the current fetches are good for standard. I can see no reason why a reprint of the Zendikar fetches wouldn't be good for standard, as well as Modern and Legacy. A reprint of them won't be at your expense, unless of course you don't want them reprinted because it will devalue your copies of them. I fail to see how I was getting huffy, or how my opinions or desires have any factor on how reality is. I would say you're being more affected by your desires, considering the fetches are not bad things to reprint for any format.
As far as your second point goes, it is very rarely the case going the other way. Some Modern staples are staples because of the way Modern works, stuff like Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf, all of with would not be very good in standard without proper support (And yes, I'm aware of Stoneforge Mystic's power when it was in standard, but if it had been printed in, say, Theros, I doubt it would have seen any play). But by and large, good cards in Modern are good cards in Standard. Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, Serum Visions, the list goes on.
Power level is definitely relevant to Standard. Balance is of course important, but there's a solution to this: Having powerful cards in multiple colours with multiple purposes. You don't need to drip-feed powerful cards over multiple sets. This allows both a good balance of decks and the ability to do powerful things. I don't know about you, but I've personally heard lots of people complaining about Theros. And, funnily enough, Theros is a far less powerful set than either of the 2 previous standard sets, or the one after it. So power evidently does matter.
July 20, 2015 1:57 p.m.
meesewhisperer says... #42
Ugh. If Wizards makes the decision to reprint zendikar fetch lands, then all the fetchlands will be in standard at the same time. Still beats the CheckShockScryFetchLands I predicted in MTG Origins.
July 20, 2015 2:46 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #43
awphutt I don't hold that belief, never have, and have never said anything to give anyone the idea I do. I've actually been saying that Zen Fetches will be reprinted in the Return to Zendikar set being released in the Fall of 2015 for around a year now. No joke, go back and check if you'd like. Modern fanboys have been clamoring for them ever since KTK dropped and have been dismissive to all of the reasons I've provided them as to why they definitively would not be reprinted until BFZ. I'm not about to change my tune now, it makes all the sense in the world to print them now just like I've been saying for the past year.
Some Standard player's issues with that particular format was mis-identified as lack of power. The issue with THS-RTR Standard was that the metagame was stagnate and unbalanced. The same decks that were good at the start of the format where the same ones being played when it ended with only minor modifications. People splashed different colors or metagamed their sideboard but that was pretty much it. This led to a stale format that rewarded heavy play experience with a single deck in order to learn all of the intricacies and how to metagame properly. With games becoming very skill intensive and sideboard dependent and nothing new or exciting showing up people began to complain and look to other formats. You don't hear the same complaints about THS-KTK Standard and it's pretty easy to see how heavily some of the most powerful decks lean on THS block to be viable. A lot of the misconception of the blocks power level in Standard came from disappointed Modern players who didn't get 10+ playables in each THS block set.
July 20, 2015 2:54 p.m.
That first paragraph is more than a little schizophrenic. You say they will be reprinted, the say they definitively won't be reprinted, then say they will be reprinted.
I'd disagree. The people who claim the meta game was stagnant didn't try hard enough at other archetypes. GW Aggro, Naya Hexproof, GR/Jund Monsters, RW Burn, Junk Midrange, Jund Walkers; At one point or another all of these decks were more than capable of taking down tournaments. Claiming that meta was stagnant is like claiming the current Modern meta is stagnant. There are powerful decks, but it's totally untrue if you pay a little more attention to the format.
If the power of a block is at such a level that there are very few Modern-playable cards in it, the block is more than likely not very powerful.
July 20, 2015 3:29 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #45
I'd disagree. The people who claim the meta game was stagnant didn't try hard enough at other archetypes.
awphutt you were fine until you said this. Because you are factually wrong. The top deck in RTR-Theros Standard never went away. And several top decks remained at the top even with the release of new sets. Most notably I'm refering to Mono Black and Mono Blue Devotion. And actually it's funny but the Modern metagame was stagnant at the time of RTR-Theros Standard.
A lot of the misconception of the blocks power level in Standard came from disappointed Modern players who didn't get 10+ playables in each THS block set.
Rasta_Viking29. I don't think this is necessarily true. There were several people disappointed with Theros as a whole, especially as time wore on. The trouble with RTR-THS was that ISD-RTR gave modern players a ton of new toys and shifted the Modern metagame. Modern, as a format relies on Standard, which is unfortunate because when Standard is stale it can (that doesn't mean it will) trickle down into Modern and it did. Theros didn't provide a whole lot to Modern and after some game changing cards that made the less rational players outspoken. Khans has done wonders for Modern. And Standard right now is pretty powerful. But, by comparison THS-RTR was not a powerful format. I think we can see that simply because the format was so stagnant.
July 20, 2015 4:16 p.m.
Mono U did not remain at the top. It remained viable, sure, but as Mono B and UW Control got new cards from BNG and JOU, Mono U got very little. And while Mono B and UW Control remained some of the best decks in the format, there were plenty of other viable decks. I'd only consider a format stagnant when there are only 1-3 decks to play successfully. I gave a list of decks that could be successful in Standard during that time, and as such I don't consider that meta stagnant.
Another example, this time in Modern, Twin could very easily be described as the top deck currently, and is definitely one of the best. And it has been one of the best decks for how many years now? There was a Twin deck in the top 8 of the first Modern GP. But is Modern stagnant? No, because there are a huge number of decks that you can bring to a tournament and win with. Sure, there are only a few tier 1 decks, but the difference in power level of tier 1 decks and tier 2 isn't so huge that only tier 1 decks are viable.
July 20, 2015 4:28 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #47
Devotion is a very powerful mechanic in Standard and dismissing the cards that make it shine in Standard just because they suck in Modern shows a lack of understanding. THS block and M15 were and are both powerful in Standard. The current top two decks, G/R Devotion and Abzan Control, both heavily rely on THS & M15 and would not be viable without them. Neither of the decks hold a candle to the Black Devotion shell of last Standard. Thoughtseize, Pack Rat, Mutavault, Lifebane Zombie, Desecration Demon, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Hero's Downfall, and Doom Blade in the same deck is more powerful than any deck we currently have access to in Standard hands down. That's not even factoring in the common splash cards like Abrupt Decay, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, and Rakdos's Return. Also compare U/B Control to last seasons U/W Control deck, the difference in power is huge. Standard is much more balanced now and the top decks are on a more equal footing.
It's pretty easy to contend that the "lack of power" in THS block is due to false perception. Moving from a format where people where Restoration Angeling Thragtusks for days, 3 colors was the norm, and INN block provided a bunch of cards that were powerful in Modern left people feeling like THS was weak overall. THS was weak for Modern but in Standard THS was/is a powerful block.
awphutt I think you need to re-read the first paragraph of my last post. There is nothing conflicting or confusing about it.
July 20, 2015 5:12 p.m. Edited.
You don't need high power levels for fun anyway. Look at pauper as a format - it's fantastic. Also some of the best games I've had have been budget modern. Formats shine regardless of power level. But I feel we are perhaps tangential to the point right now.
July 20, 2015 5:18 p.m.
My mistake, misread until as in.
But in any case, I haven't heard anyone call for the other fetches to be reprinted in FRF, DTK, or ORI. Everyone thought they'd be reprinted in BFZ, you're not unique in thinking that by any stretch of the imagination.
And if you look at the powerful stuff in current standard(And by current I mean pre Origins, I haven't seen the SCG tournament this weekend yet so I can't comment on that), the back bones of the top decks, you've got;
Deathmist Raptor+Den Protector
Dragonlord Ojutai/Dragonlord Silumgar+Silumgar's Scorn+Dig Through Time
Atarka's Command+Dragon Fodder/Hordeling Outburst+Stoke the Flames
Stormbreath Dragon+Draconic Roar+Thunderbreak Regent
All these are from Khans/M15. This is vs Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx + green stuff from Theros. And sure, Theros brought a lot of great support cards to the format, but that's all they are. They're support cards. The format defining cards are all from Khans.
Past this point, if you'd like to continue this, feel free to post to my wall. I'd rather not de-rail this thread further towards the importance of Theros block, and away from the original topic.
July 20, 2015 5:27 p.m.
i think wizards will reprint enemy fetches because they are actively trying to bring down the price on many staples in modern especially the land base, wizards doesn't want you paying 200$ for a set of scalding tarns they want you to buy a box and sell/trade for the rest of the play set you need after cracking it lol
HolyFalcon says... #2
+1
July 17, 2015 11:29 a.m.