New Convoke Wording
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 24, 2014, 11:17 p.m. by Gidgetimer
A friend of mine and I were discussing Obelisk of Urd, the new tribal double anthem with Convoke, and I noticed that they are changing the wording on Convoke's reminder text.
They are changing it from "Each creature you tap while casting this spell reduces its cost by (1) or by one mana of that creature's color" to "Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for (1) or one mana of that creature's color"
I am not a fan of this change. I think that the first sentence of the new reminder text is superfluous and a bit jarring to have the card talking to me like I'm its 8 year old nephew. I also feel that changing the wording from "reduces the mana cost by" to "pays for" is an unnecessary change. Although looking at the rulings on the cards it looks like that second change may have been made in February and I am just now noticing. What do you guys think of this new wording?
Myogenesis says... #3
After playing with a card a bit, how many times do you actually read the reminder text again for a mechanic?
June 24, 2014 11:24 p.m.
I only feel the first sentence, "Your creatures can help cast this spell", is superfluous.
June 24, 2014 11:31 p.m.
I agree that the first part is just a waste of space. The change from "reduces" to "pays for" is actually functionally different. You used to be able to overpay, e.g. tap 4 creatures to reduce the cost of Devouring Light to nothing. That's counter-intuitive and almost looks like cheating. It didn't use to matter, but with convoke and inspired in the same Standard Wizards wanted to avoid that interaction. I think that's reasonable.
June 24, 2014 11:31 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
When I see words I read them. To the point that If I am wanting to actually understand something because I am reading it for the first time I will sometimes have to start the first line a few times because I have already read it and am off reading something else by the time my brain goes into store mode instead of cursory read through mode.
I had read the wording before and thought it was dumb but I finally decided to see if I was alone in my dislike of the change. By the opinions so far it seems that either I am alone in my dislike of the change or I'm alone in my compulsive reading of every word I see.
June 24, 2014 11:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
Ok I can see the function of that change now dude1818 thank you for the input.
June 24, 2014 11:36 p.m.
Remember, it's a core set; it's something specifically designed and developed for new players to enter the game. Something that flavorfully helps them remember what the heck the ability does makes it easier for them to understand.
If you're an older player, you already know what Convoke does (though you might have to be reminded about the functional change), so you can skip the reminder text altogether. If you're a newer player, you can read the reminder text and have that flavor connection ("Oh, my creatures are helping me with the spell. Makes sense."), making it easier to grasp the mechanic and play with it in the future. It's a win-win.
If you're really upset about that, you probably:
- Dislike the fact that new players are going to find it easier to understand the game and play it. Which makes no sense. Why dislike that there are more people to play Magic with?
- Are upset about having to read more than is absolutely necessary. If that's the case, why are you playing Magic in the first place?
- Just like to complain about any amount of change. You'll get used to it eventually. Chill.
That was a bit snarkier than I normally like to be on TO, but my point stands.
June 25, 2014 12:33 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
I would humbly put forth a fourth possibility:
You appreciate reminder text for what it is, a reminder of what impact the ability has on the game. But you feel that any unneeded information will confuse the point of exactly what the ability does.
I foresee someone on the Q&A before September asking: If my creatures help me cast CONVOKE CARD does that mean that I can't cast it when I don't have creatures? What if I only have 1 creature?
The illustrative text in the reminder only serves to muddle the mixture. Flying (Storm Crow swoops through the air with the greatest of ease. This creature can only be blocked by other creatures with flying or reach) may be flavorful and make it "Easier to grasp the mechanic" as would Reach (Giant Spider can crawl up its web to interact with flying creatures.This creature can block creatures with flying." but the unneeded information just makes it less concise and in a game based on cards doing exactly what they say they do you need to be concise.
June 25, 2014 12:51 a.m.
erabel, not to sound judgmental, but I think you've narrowed your scope a bit too much. Those three points hardly cover every possible argument that could be made against including that first line in the reminder text.
What personally irks me is that the presentation clashes with the vast majority of reminder texts in the game. After all, we don't include things like 'Flying (This creature is capable of soaring over the creatures your opponents control. Only creatures with Reach and Flying can block this creature.) or Exalted (This creature aids a lone attacker you control. Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, that creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)'.
There are some other points I could make as to why I dislike the change but I hardly feel the conversation's needed.
June 25, 2014 1:06 a.m.
I feel that the question would probably also be asked if the reminder text didn't have that line ("Each creature I tap pays for this? Do I have to tap creatures? Are creatures the only way to cast this?"). The difference is, there's not that little bit of flavor reminder text ("Oh, they can help. They do some work, I do some work, spell is cheaper.") that would clear it up for some others.
Who knows whether it'll actually be more effective? Only time will tell. I'm leaning more toward the optimistic "Hey, more people can grok this with a flavor connection." than the pessimistic "More lines of text means more places the new player can get confused" (which I also feel underestimates the intelligence of the average person who wants to try Magic, new or not).
June 25, 2014 1:12 a.m.
Well, TheDevicer, with Flying, Trample, Exalted or even Lifelink and Deathtouch, the flavor is all but there in the vocab used. A flying thing flies; a trampling thing tramples over blockers; a lifelink guy links damage to life; deathtouch guy kills things at a touch; the one creature attacking is exalted by the others, so it's stronger.
Convoke is not a word I'd hear in every day conversation (you wouldn't think Exalted would be either, and it might not be; but I grew up in the Deep South as a Baptist Christian, so the possibility isn't miniscule), so it might need the extra bit of definition in the reminder text, unlike so many other evergreen keywords.
This sort of thing is actually the reason flanking never caught on; no one got the flavor connection to horses because the word didn't fit. The mechanic was simple enough, but lots of people got confused because of the name. Convoke might have gone the same way if the flavor bit wasn't there.
June 25, 2014 1:20 a.m.
As a Spike, I don't require the flavor connection. Part of Spike dislikes the inefficiency of superfluous text.
As a Vorthos, I don't mind the flavor connection. It'd be nice to have more of it across the board sometimes, especially when the text on a card looks like Frontline Medic .
The evaluation committee doesn't need to argue whether the additional text is good or bad, because it's already there. I'm more interested in knowing why only Convoke gets a flavor connection in its reminder text. Is convoke rules text particularly confusing? Do other keywords not benefit from flavored reminder text? Why here, and nowhere else?
June 25, 2014 1:23 a.m.
x754, I feel the reason why Convoke got this treatment, and no other mechanic did, is simply because the word "Convoke" doesn't jump out and mean anything obvious to anyone who doesn't/didn't play Magic at the right time. There's no connection for people to make like with flying or with lifelink or with trample.
June 25, 2014 1:29 a.m.
I remember reading in a dailyMTG article that blue is going to do something new and unique with convoke. so maybe the reminder text being this way makes whatever the fuck blue is doing more clear. This isn't wrong either way, It still does what convoke does.
June 25, 2014 2:53 a.m.
It irks me even as a Vorthos. I'd prefer having an additional line of interesting flavor text over having the same boring one on each card, and I'd prefer nothing over bad flavor text.
June 25, 2014 12:30 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #19
Well my thing with saying "it adds flavor" is that there are places for flavor and there are places for function.The art, flavor text, ability design, power/toughness balance are where flavor belongs. Casting cost, rules text, and actual power/toughness numbers are where function belongs. MaRo has said multiple times that function trumps flavor in design decisions and I think this little bit of flavor hampers function. If you want to know what convoke does RTFC, there is reminder text and I doubt that they are not going to pull it off.
"Your creatures help you cast this spell" is not only mildly irksome, it is also a flavor loss for me. The word convoke means "call together or summon". In my mind the reason your creatures must tap is because they are traveling to this meeting that you have called them together for. By their mere presence they are making the magic you are working less of a drain on you, however they are not so much "helping" as just being present. If they were helping "assist" or "collaborate" would be a better name for the mechanic. As it is the mechanic is named for calling a gathering (and we wouldn't want to insult new player's intelligence thinking they don't know the meaning of a word from a 6th grade vocabulary test).
June 25, 2014 2:19 p.m.
megawurmple says... #20
I honestly think that the first line of the text is really patronising. It sounds like WOTC think we're all 7 years old and trying to include some kind of lesson on morality. "Don't worry, we can all help to cast this spell so no-one feels left out".
June 25, 2014 2:57 p.m.
I don't know what upsets me more - the fact that Magic players have decided this is something of an issue; or that I've immediately taken a side on this within seconds of hearing it, and everyone seems to be against me.
Like, I know I'm rambling and being one of those guys complaining about people complaining, but why do you care? What is the inherent problem with Wizards wanting to explain mechanics to new players with a bit of flavor? It literally doesn't affect you because you already know what Convoke does, so you never have to read the reminder text.
June 25, 2014 9:04 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #22
Again I must be weird with my compulsive reading of any and all words I see. I thought that this was something that everyone did without trying since I have for as long as I can remember read any words I see before I can even think about if I want/need to read it. So no, I literally can't not read words I see. And it bothers me that as TitansFTW said it is a bit of a patronizing tone. Also if I were just starting a game and had the cards basically go "ok little jimmy this is a convoke spell, that means your creatures help you cast it" I would not really want to play it.
June 25, 2014 9:11 p.m.
Magic the Gathering is an inherently complex game, and even if you understand the basics of how to build a deck and cast spells and do combat stuff, you've only scratched the surface of how complicated the game can be. But Magic rarely, if ever, holds your hand through explaining these things. The new Convoke wording doesn't do that. It takes something complicated ("Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's colors.") and puts it in layman's terms ("Your creatures can help you cast this spell."). That isn't "holding your hand" or "being condescending". It is explaining something complex in a simple, metaphorical way.
Also, I know as well as a lot of people that tone doesn't carry well over written word, but "Your creatures can help you cast this spell." only sounds as condescending as you want it to. Just because it's an obvious oversimplification to someone who knows the game and the mechanic doesn't mean it's meant to make players feel dumb and talked-down-to.
June 25, 2014 9:21 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #24
I feel as if it may be you who is underestimating the average intelligence of players now. "Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color." is in no way a complicated concept. So trying to make it simpler than a sentence my 10 year old nephew could read and understand I feel is over simplification to the point of being condescending. And before you say "some players are 10, or even younger" I would remind you that every pack of Magic cards says "Age 13+" on it and so players younger than that should be able to operate at the level of a 13 year old or admit that it is too complex and come back after a few more years of brain development.
June 25, 2014 9:40 p.m.
That last sentence; that people younger that 13, if they can't handle the complexity, have to leave and come back after they can "handle it". I know a lot of college age and adult people who would see me playing a game of Magic and have no idea what was going on, even after watching several games. Magic is complex. It takes explaining and time and learning lots and lots of jargon to play this game, even at a basic level (try telling a brand-new player how Elvish Mystic's "T: add G to your mana pool" works, without resorting to RTFC. Explain it to them, without resorting to game jargon. It takes a bit of work.).
Wanting to make Convoke, and by extension, Magic simpler to understand (even if it's only a little) is not condescending, it's not "dumbing the game down", it's not underestimating the intelligence of people who want to learn to play. It is a recognition that Magic has a really frickin' high barrier to entry if you didn't grow up playing it and a desire to broaden the player base by ever so slightly lowering it. That is what the trinket text on Convoke does. It ever so slightly lowers the barrier to entry.
Also, when you want to explain Magic to new players, do you talk to them like "Hey, little buddy, okay, so this is a Convoke spell. That means your creatures (smile at person) help you cast it, okay?", or do you talk to them like, I dunno, people? If it's the second one, why are you assuming that the goal of the people who wrote the reminder text, the people who make this game for people to buy and play, is to speak like the first one?
June 25, 2014 10:22 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #27
my biggest question is why does the wizards voice condescend you in your head, erabel?
June 25, 2014 10:46 p.m.
He's not the only one here. I find it to be incredibly condescending. My creatures help me pay for the spell? Well duh, the second sentence tells me this. Why need to have repeating information? We're not talking about Ice Cauldron
here. Convoke isn't such a hard mechanic to wrap your head around.
June 25, 2014 11:02 p.m.
PreZchoICE1: It doesn't condescend in my head. It apparently does in Gidge's. It's how he's been seeing it, apparently.
TheDevicer:The second sentence tells you this, assuming you understand it from having played Magic before. If a person's first experience playing Magic is an M15 draft at FNM, they're gonna need the extra explanation. And it's simple compared to Ice Cauldron, but it's complicated compared to a baseline 0 experience in Magic, which is who core sets are mostly designed for.
June 25, 2014 11:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #30
Yeah I talk to them like people and say "Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color." You have to assume people playing a game have at least read the insert that comes with every intro deck and deckbuilder's tool kit or have had someone explain the basic concepts of them game to them in a 2 minute primer. So that they understand tapping, paying for spells, what mana is, and what it does.
Maybe I don't understand how people can be confused by simple English (or whatever language they have the card printed in) because I have basic reading comprehension skills. This isn't coming from someone who "grew up playing magic" or even someone who has been playing for a super long time, I started playing during Dragon Maze and within minutes of starting my first game I knew what effects every card played had because I can read. Now I was far from being good at Magic and the intricacies of interactions, synergies, and combos escaped me but by god if someone played a spell it took me no longer than 10 seconds to know what that card did because again I learned well over 20 years ago how to read.
My point is that no one expects brand new players to memorize what every card or mechanic does, that is something that takes repetition and gradually happens over time. That is the point of the reminder text so that the card itself tells you how to play it. It isn't memory aid text, it isn't flavor text, it is reminder text that should contain a clear English reminder of what exactly the ability does. No more, no less.
June 25, 2014 11:07 p.m.
I think that it is unnecessary and an inefficient use of card space. I don't find it condescending, just funky.
I am a pure Johnny, through and through. In my experience, people start playing with friends or nice enough people that will explain abilities to them. Because seriously, that first line is exactly what I would say to someone when they are trying grasp what convoke means. They read the old text, then I say "So basically, your creatures help you cast those spells!" But now magic is stealing my words. :( :P :P I would prefer if the first line wasn't there.
x754 Has the exact questions I would like to ask.
July 1, 2014 12:42 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #32
Huh. Well this escalated into something ridiculous quickly. It's like the argument over the border change on the new cards. Except now it's over some words. So I'll side with erabel on this. It's a sentence. A statement. It isn't there to condescend you, it's there to aid new players. Let's just drop this, because this conversation isn't worth anymore time and effort.
July 1, 2014 3:34 p.m.
All i'd say is to keep it to the commons and uncommons. It's a bit annoying, and the first time i saw it all i thought was "hmm, I don't remember that being there before. Sounds slightly cheesy but oh well." I think it's fine, and convoke is a bit confusing. Also: this is happening on other keywords. I can think of one off the top of my head. Cipher. They didn't have to put on the words "encoded onto a creature you control" They could've used attached, which would be symmetric with auras and equipment, but they used a flavourful word that made the mechanic easier to understand. It's a bit annoying on every single card. I only need to hear this once or twice, but they can't tell us once or twice without telling us 1,000 times, so keep the commons and uncommons with this sentence, then shorten it for rares (and mythics if there is are any).
July 1, 2014 9:04 p.m.
This reminds me of the (sort of) predecessor of this: Obsidian Fireheart
"The land continues to burn..."
July 1, 2014 9:33 p.m.
The difference between convoke and Obsidian Fireheart is that the Fireheart is only one card, not the major mechanic of the set, and that it doesn't have any extraneous text. Convoke's reminder text is not as interesting, much more prevalent, and isn't even sufficient on its own. If I explained convoke by saying "your creatures can help you cast this spell" on its own, would you know how to play it? No, because the phrase doesn't mean anything. What if I said "each creature you taps pays for one mana"? Now you have enough information to play with it. That much extra text is clearly not necessary.
July 2, 2014 1:30 a.m.
"Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color." is in no way a complicated concept.
Just saying: The "Research" portion of R&D has shown that the X cost in a simple card like Blaze can be confusing to many players, especially newer ones who haven't seen the symbol before, may not be familiar with algebraic concepts, and/or just don't understand its use as a placeholder value.
Convoke is nowhere near as simple as X. The reminder text change is good. Imagine someone playing their first (or third, or tenth... this game takes quite a while to really take it all in) and all they see is "Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color."
Remember, this is when players are at a point where they don't even know about the mana pool and how costs actually get paid; they just tap the lands necessary as the put the card down. Many may not have even seen something like Elvish Mystic yet. The first line makes the ability's meaning dramatically clearer, and that is important in any set, but especially in core sets.
Reminder text has never been rules text and should not be construed as such. This may be a bit more obvious about it not being actual game rules, but it serves an important purpose.
July 2, 2014 7:06 a.m.
EddCrawley says... #37
I don't know what side of the discussion i want to join, it just seems like a lot of fun to be a part of...
July 2, 2014 8:53 a.m.
I don't think the extraneous sentence adds anything other than clutter. I'd prefer it not be on the card, but it's inclusion doesn't really bother me.
July 2, 2014 8:58 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #39
How come nobody got this freaked out when they had reminder text for scry with Theros? At least like what erabel has mentioned a few times: it's a core set, for new players. Chances are few convoke cards make it into tournament level decks(we all know Chord of Calling will) so you won't have to see it anyways
July 2, 2014 9:25 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #40
I think the new reminder text is great. By itself, "Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for (1) or one mana of that creature's color" is still pretty dense, and for many players it will only explain Convoke if they already know what the mechanic does (making a "reminder" kind of pointless). Remember, the last time a new card with Convoke was printed in a normal booster-release expansion set was 7 years ago. The leading "Your creatures can help cast this spell" lets the reader know what the more technical sentence actually means.
Osang says... #2
I blame core set simplicity. From what I've heard, core sets are usually simpler than other sets, and in this fashion, I feel like they found it necessary to simplify it. Still functions the same way, so I don't mind.
June 24, 2014 11:21 p.m.