New Dark Confidant!
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Jan. 13, 2014, 1:10 a.m. by Turn_Soonest
So the spoilers have recently been released, and I wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were on Pain Seer, especially with Springleaf Drum being back in the format. Is he great? Will he be overhyped? How played will he be?1BWhenever Pain Seer becomes untapped, draw a card. You lose life equal to it's converted mana cost. 2/2
He's up to a $5 preorder on SCG, so people are buying into the ability to draw cards upon untap.
January 13, 2014 1:20 a.m.
I really hope he's not overhyped. He's at $4.99 pre-order now, and I honestly hope it never goes any higher. But it'll probably go up to about $16 like Hero's Downfall did.
January 13, 2014 1:22 a.m.
You know what goes great with Pain Seer? Opposition . Blue/Black EDH decks have a new toy to play with.
January 13, 2014 1:26 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #7
Why would he see play in eternal formats when you can just run Dark Confidant? He doesn't require and mediocre cards to "turn on", and is just all around better. Maybe he'll slot into MBD in standard, seeing as the highest card they run is Desecration Demon.
Wait, no, they run Grey Merchant. Kind of hard to run pseudo-Bob and a 5 drop in the same deck lol. Marginally playable in standard, otherwise trash.
January 13, 2014 1:32 a.m.
Am I really the only one seeing this guy being broken with Springleaf Drum ?
Yeah. I'll be buying 12 of these guys for $5 apiece and selling them in 2 months for $15.
January 13, 2014 1:59 a.m.
Turn_Soonest says... #10
See that's what I thought. I play Affinity in modern, and he seems pretty awesome for Affinity, considering the list already has Springleaf Drum .
January 13, 2014 2:14 a.m.
deathtouch_roadrunner says... #11
Well, I certainly want Pain Seer and Springleaf Drum now. Combined they should be amazing for low CMC heroic decks. Getting lots of cards will help smooth over the issues with emptying your hand too fast and consistency.
Triton Tactics , Nivmagus Elemental , Hidden Strings , Aqueous Form , Artisan of Forms , Pain Seer , Springleaf Drum , Triton Fortune Hunter , Bioshift , Tormented Hero and Agent of the Fates or kills + counters seems like it could run amok quite quickly. With new lands + springleaf a white splash for Favored Hoplite + Battlewise Hoplite + Oreskos Sun Guide is even possible.
Now I don't know if such a deck is constructed competitive, and I'm sure I'm overlooking cards or making a few bad choices. But I think it would be amazingly fun and be a lot more resilient than current attempts at heroic.
January 13, 2014 2:52 a.m.
He's far worse than Dark Confidant , requiring another card to make his ability viable, otherwise you have to swing in with him, which is risky.
I can see him doing good things with Hidden Strings or something.
I think the point is that he's not very playable unless you build a deck around exploiting him, which severely diminishes his value. Dark Confidant will just net you cards, always. Pain seer will only net you cards if you support him.
I give him 2/5. Strong if supported, but otherwise lackluster.
January 13, 2014 4:30 a.m.
I don't think he need to have a deck built around him. If nothing else, he's a Grizzly Bears in a B/X aggro deck. He has the potential to offer a fair deal of card advantage.
I wouldn't even say adding Springleaf Drum would pass as "building around him," either. Springleaf Drum and this guy make stuff like Jund midrange/short-game a HUGE possibility.
January 13, 2014 4:33 a.m.
But that's my point in some respects. If you add Springleaf Drum , then you have 8 cards in your deck, designed to make him work (4x drum, 4x him). If you draw him without the drum then you're not in an ideal situation. You've also weakened your deck by adding 4 cards (Springleaf Drum ) that don't do a whole lot (unless you are playing midrange and genuinely want that ramp). Therefore he becomes situational, and situational can be fantastic - but it's never as good as something that just undeniably works.
Dark Confidant only requires 4 cards (just himself) to work. It's using less deck space, which means your deck doesn't get bloated. He therefore fits into any deck you want him to, and needs no support.
I disagree with the midrange assertion to some extent. If you fill your deck with creatures that have a cmc of around 5 then you're going to lose the game pretty quickly - with this guys ability taking chunks out of your life. Typically you see Dark Confidant in more aggressive builds or those with a cmc of around 3. I can tell you now that you don't want to be putting Springleaf Drum in an aggro deck or at least one similar to those that usually see Dark Confidant played in.
January 13, 2014 4:45 a.m.
Dark Confidant is most highly played in BUG tempo decks - very, very low average cmc. I don't see a card like this being played often in a deck with higher drops (like a midrange deck).
January 13, 2014 4:47 a.m.
I was really thinking more of a tempo deck than a midrange deck when I made that point; not sure why I said "midrange".
I could definitely see something happening with him. Drum is a solid card already, but I'm sure we'll see more creatures with this new "when ~ untaps" ability. I'm not brewing just yet, but I can't help but think there's something there.
Just imagine the implications. Turn 1, Drum. Turn 2, Pain Seer, tap him for B, Thoughtseize or Duress (or little beatstick guy). Turn 3, you draw an extra card and have extra mana. Turn ???. Profit?
January 13, 2014 4:53 a.m.
I think that Pain Seer is a good card, but I agree that he isn't anywhere close to Bob in power level.
January 13, 2014 5:54 a.m.
Mother of God...there are no words...they should have sent a poet.
Black-based Affinity in Modern. Calling it now.
January 13, 2014 5:54 a.m.
That could certainly work. Affinity is a deck that has limited draw power, so he would be a powerful addition.
January 13, 2014 6:48 a.m.
Although, dark confidant is modern legal and he's not played in affinity so I'm not sure.....
January 13, 2014 6:49 a.m.
Can you explain me Inspired mechanics? I mean for its activation I need to untap it with other cards or is enough untap Pain Seer at the beginning of my turn?
January 13, 2014 7:23 a.m.
Its whenever he untaps, whih includes your untap step at the beginning of your turn.
January 13, 2014 7:30 a.m.
lookoutimscary says... #23
I just saw that and was going to start a thread. It will definitely see Standard play, but it's not on the same power level as Dark Confidant as you have to find a way to tap it each turn and attacking with it each tun could get dangerous.
January 13, 2014 7:41 a.m.
I like him, I don't play black ,but I do like him. The problem is, he will face the same issue Windreader Sphinx does. It's being compared to Consecrated Sphinx , which it clearly is not, so it was shadowed before it had a shot.
Let's see what the competition for this guy is. Of course, he is no Dark Confidant , so forget that. All hail the king of black static draw! Duskmantle Seer , this guy is underplayed! Yea your opponent gets a card, too, but the trick here is that you planned for this to happen, they didn't. You draw into Thoughtseize , they draw into Elspeth, Sun's Champion , and then you get to make them discard her. So he has his uses, but is also not a Dark Confidant . Blood Scrivener seems good, but sees no competitive play either. I think the reason here is that 1.The cards that make him good (Sire Of Insanity ) don't see play either, and 2. No one wants to let themselves get to 0 cards in hand to be able to use his ability. So, I would put Pain Seer above Scrivener and Duskmantle, but far below Confidant, putting him as the best standard legal version of himself right now.
Let's look at other black draw for standard. Underworld Connections is just better I think. Ok, it costs more, but no matter what you draw into you paid only 1 life. Also, you get to activate this without having the play around tapping something first. Erebos, God of the Dead is also a solid choice, but you need mana available...did Greed ever see competitive play? What I see here is that if you are playing a deck where the devotion will be there, Erebos may be worth it, but if not, I think the Connections are what will shine as the superior black draw option. Pain Seer will see play in standard and EDH for sure. Modern and beyond? I don't see it happening because while the budget argument was brought up, if you are on a budget that leaves Dark Confidant unattainable, then I am guessing you cant afford the other pieces of the puzzle either here (Tarmogoyf , Liliana of the Veil , Thoughtseize , etc)
I like this guy, but I don't love him and I think he will see vast overhyping, allowing some players to pad their pockets nicely, then drop to an underwhelming lower than preorder price soon after.
January 13, 2014 9:14 a.m.
capriom85 - Everything you said is correct, but I want to add in something the lead developer said about Pain Seer
. I could copy/paste but I'm going to paraphrase. He wanted there to be a Dark Confidant
type card for more aggressive black decks to use as another option to Underworld Connections
.
I bet that MBD will still run Underworld Connections
over Pain Seer
because of some of the cards included, but a Rakdos Aggro deck can turn 2 Pain Seer
, turn 3 give him Madcap Skills
and then go to town on card draw.
January 13, 2014 9:23 a.m.
Snowblindblitz says... #26
I can fit him into a B/R aggro deck for sure. Against slower decks I believe him capable for forcing a Supreme Verdict even faster, as he'll keep the gas full, unlike, say, Rakdos Shred-Freak .
January 13, 2014 10:20 a.m.
I think it's a cool twist on Dark Confidant .
Pro: The Confidant only nets you one card max during your upkeep, while there are plenty of "tap target creature" and "untap target creature" effects to reuse Pain Seer each turn. I also think getting a card during your untap step before upkeep happens is a slight advantage..
Con: There are also plenty of "creature does not untap" effects that could lock this guy down.
I think it's a nice balance and the +1 toughness over Dark Confidant allows you to attack into an Elvish Mystic , or whatever, without too much worry.
I like it.
January 13, 2014 11:13 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #28
After thinking on him for a little bit, I agree with most of what was said. He's going to be bonkers in just the right deck or two, but will be completely garbage for most other decks. Rakdos Aggro? Yes please. Esper Control? No thank you.
I think his best potential home is in Modern, where he could potentially spawn an entire deck. No, he's not Dark Confidant , but Bob only draws you one card a turn. In the right Modern deck this guy can draw an arbitrary number of cards per turn, facilitating combos that may not have existed before.
January 13, 2014 11:14 a.m.
Like I said - BU tempo with Hidden Strings and other plays may happen. It'll be cool. A good mixture of aggro and tempo plays.
January 13, 2014 12:14 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #30
I could see him seeing standard play in a Rock shell or a Jund aggro shell.
The price has also shot up to 10 on SCG and 12.99 everywhere else. Kind of disappointed about that. Not gonna lie.
January 13, 2014 12:26 p.m.
...not to mention B/U/G decks could untap it on an opponents turn with Prophet of Kruphix .
There could be some interesting ways to use this guy... brainstorming would be required.
The advantage probably still goes to the more passive and automatic Dark Confidant ... but do you really expect Wizards to print something better than him in the current Standard?
January 13, 2014 12:30 p.m.
If what NobodyPicksBulbasaur said about modern happen, $12.99 would be nothing...look at what Dark Confidant look like price wise. Taking that ability to the next level of repetition....seems like a solid investment IF you have a way to break it. Also, I'd like to see what people think would be a way to use him for infinite (or not) combos without dying before you dug to what you need.
January 13, 2014 12:33 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #33
Rayenous, BUG decks, yes those too. But I have yet to see a really solid BUG shell that I could jump on board. I even tried to brew one, and took it to FNM... that shit got put down. Card advantage was the deciding factor working against me, this might be the thing it needs. Also, the lack of a decent board wipe was what also set me back. Gaze of Granite and Cyclonic Rift did not work as well as expected. I am hoping that BUG gets a better wrath effect.
January 13, 2014 12:35 p.m.
There are just some cards that WotC isn't going to print in a Standard legal set. Some examples include: Force of Will , Tarmogoyf , Dark Confidant , True-Name Nemesis , etc.
January 13, 2014 12:36 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #35
With the right combo he would be a lot like Ad Nauseam , albeit harder to set up. While the combo pieces for it might not exist now, there's no telling what might be printed in future sets to make it viable.
January 13, 2014 12:38 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #36
capriom85, don't get me wrong, I am going to pick a set up for my own gains. I have ideas for that card already. I may be in the right mind to proxy them for a couple days and then buy into them. But I can see a few decks that he could work in without a combo.
I can see a deck that plays like modern decks with Bob. Bob is usually attacking every turn in those decks, and happens to die often in the process. So with that said, he attacks, if he gets in... you can untap him. If not, you take no pain and the opponent may be down a creature. Either way it works.
January 13, 2014 12:39 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #37
Tarmogoyf is actually pretty tame by Standard...standards. Sure you can end up with a 5/6 for 1G, but it's a lot less of a reliable effect in Standard than it is in Legacy or even Modern. There's a chance he would see relatively little play.
January 13, 2014 12:40 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #38
I agree with NobodyPicksBulbasaur on this one. I think he's going to be bonkers in the right deck, but that will only be a few. Definitely doesn't fit an esper shell.
Mono Black Devotion just got stronger.....
January 13, 2014 12:41 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #39
The problem with MBD decks is that they rely on a number of 4 and 5-drop cards. Sure, the whip and Gary can give some life back, but MBC can't afford to pay 4 extra life when it already has extremely efficient card draw engines.
January 13, 2014 12:43 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #40
I dig him, not-as-good Bob is still a Bob.
Certainly a card I want to play around with for my Orzhov Humans deck, the BUG interaction mentioned above with Prophet of Kruphix sounds hype as hell. Also there's the interaction with Aqueous Form to get around their big monsters.
Hell maybe I'll just stow a few of these away in case I plan to get into Modern. I ain't paying for a set of Dark Confidant
January 13, 2014 1:02 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #41
I think in a deck with Agent of the Fates and Triton Tactics theres no reason it won't see standard play. This may be a valuable piece in the BUG tempo Duskmantle Seer build I'm trying to put together for Modern too. With discard like the black heroic creature Ashiok's Adept and Noxious Revival it could work. If there was a good spell for returning stuff to the top of the library it'd be even more worth it...but c'est la vie...at the moment.
January 13, 2014 1:09 p.m.
@ZSensei90 Any time he untaps, regardless of why.
Untap for turn, untap from another card or ability, doesn't matter.
January 13, 2014 1:10 p.m.
I'm planning on brewing a deck on here as soon as we see the rest of the inspired enablers in the set around this guy. I think a tempo U/B deck that tops out at 3/4 mana and uses scry well could be powerful.
Just hope I can get hold of enough of them if it works out.
January 13, 2014 1:14 p.m.
TendererBoat says... #44
Something that allows you to scry consistently like Thassa, God of the Sea is going to make him better. Combined with the previously mentioned Hidden Strings could make him fairly painful. Considering most blue decks in standard want to run thassa anyway its not even adding many more cards
January 13, 2014 2:21 p.m.
Pain Seer draws you a card during your Untap Step, before you get to Scry with Thassa. Barring no other top-of-your-deck manipulation, there's no way Thassa can affect him.
January 13, 2014 2:22 p.m.
@zandl Actually, no players get priority in the untap step, so no abilities can even be placed on the stack, let alone resolve. Since the first time players get priority in the turn is in the upkeep step, and Thassa triggers then, you can stack the triggers such that Thassa's resolves before Pain Seer's.
January 13, 2014 2:32 p.m.
Right you are. I was thinking of something completely different.
January 13, 2014 2:35 p.m.
The extra point of toughness makes him pretty solid early game. He swings into Elvish Mystic like it ain't no thang.
If the best he ever does is to swing in for 4 damage, draw you two cards, and then die to chump block a 4-CMC threat, for 1B he's done his job and then some.
EvenDryke says... #2
He's not mind blowing, but he looks pretty good. 4/5 would play.
I'm mostly interested to see if he sees any play in eternal formats.
At worst I could see him being a budget option for people who can't afford or don't want to buy Dark Confidant .
January 13, 2014 1:18 a.m.