Official Spoiler Thread: Oath Of The Gatewatch
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2015, 5:58 p.m. by ChiefBell
Official Spoiler Thread.
Have at it.
I'm having a hard time seeing Nissa's playability as well... better than Chandra though.
3 mana is okay (maybe her best feature).
+1: makes a 0/1 plant... a bit of self protection. May be enough against some decks.
-2: +1/+1 counters... this is good if you get her late game and have a few creatures. (agressively or defensively)... but not great... not like Gideon's Emblem.
-7: This is good, but not game ending.
To play her well, you almost have to build around her... but with no 'game ending' abilities, there's little reason for the build around. - Still not bad, and may see some Standard play, but not overly impressive.
To tell you the truth, if her tokens had Reach, I would really like this card. That's all it would take to make it worth while, in my opinion; just needs a bit better protection.
December 14, 2015 9:02 a.m. Edited.
She's fine for 3 mana. Repeatable blockers is ok. It's just her -2 is a tad meh. I really like her but I think she's borderline and slightly toward the unplayable side.
December 14, 2015 9:15 a.m.
New chandra is ... The token hit once then they're gone leaving her open for attacks, the card draw is extremely situational, -X is very underwhelming.
At 4 loyalty without inbuilt protection she may survive maximum 2-3 turns. The token will punch through almost nothing that will be on board turn 6-7. Against a red deck blocking with a rhino or savage knuckleblade will carry it's risk (wild slash, fiery impulse, kolaghan's command), but it will still essentially be a 2 for 1 and against aristocrats the token will be completely useless. I could see it being usefull when also holding radiant flames against abzan or temur, but that most likely won't be the turn you play her and doing 5 damage to a planeswalker is not the hardest of tasks for most current standart decks at that point in time.
The 0 ability is very situational and most likely won't help unless your hand is filled with lands or something similar. Even then you most likely won't cast anything you draw untill your next turn, because she costs 6.
The -X : At best it's a 6 mana sweeper with upsides against some sort of token deck. At worst it's a semi-sweeper for 6. At this point why not just play radiant flames or sideboard boiling earth for token decks. They hit much earlier and you will most likely still hold a good position.
December 14, 2015 9:47 a.m.
Nissa is pretty good for a 3-mana planeswalker. Probably as good as we can expect to have at that CMC.
I'd give the new Chandra the benefit of the doubt if she were a 4-drop, but at six mana? I won't even bother. She may not see any play even in Standard, let alone any other format.
And god, I hope that R/W manland is fake, because it's PATHETIC. It makes Lavaclaw Reaches look great in comparison.
December 14, 2015 9:49 a.m.
I might not be the first person to say this, but I see these expedition lands and the first thing I noticed is that they are not completing the tango land cycle in this set. ALSO, it makes me think that this is not the last time we will see Zendikar Expeditions-like lands. I would think they would want all 10 tango lands to have one.
December 14, 2015 10:11 a.m.
You guys are way to down on both Chandra and Nissa, who are both beautifully made. They might've been a bit conservative, but even so they're good cards.
If Nissas tokens had reach it would be a bit better, and if chandras tokens had trample or she started with 1 more loyalty she would be better. But they aren't. So let's look at the actual cards instead of dreaming how they could be better.
Let's start with Nissa:3 mana: great. 3 starting loyalty: fine, allows her to minus and survive. +1: not the best, but protects herself. This effect will really shine in rally/aristocrat type decks, which I think is the main deck she will be in.-2: for 3 mana, this is extremely valuable. Obviously Nissas flavor is how her + works together with this. You can spit out some plants and then anthem them every turn. But that's not all her minus is for. It's extremely valuable in rally/aristocrats builds (allows your little guys to actually pack a punch), and synergieses incredibly well with Hangarback Walker, which is already in some of those decks. Another deck this is incredible in is hardened scales, which obviously runs Hangarback Walker. In hardened scales this ability might be out of control, so the deck might finally be competitive. Another place her minus helps is in midrange mirrors. Making your rhinos bigger is very important.
Her ultimate is whatever, draw some cards gain some life.
December 14, 2015 11:42 a.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #9
Is it just me or does it seem like all the mythics are powerful but they don't actually DO anything. Like, they do powerful things for less mana but they just don't actually matter. Like, the surge card seems great at first but then you realize that you HAVE TO CAST ANOTHER SPELL and suddenly it's not so great. Or the new kozilek, his abilities are powerful and he seems cool at first but there's really nothing about him that makes me want to play him over newlamog. Same thing for all the other mythics. The planeswalkers aren't even that great as other people have stated. I wish nissa was 4 cmc and did a bit more. Chandra just can't protect herself.
December 14, 2015 11:43 a.m.
wwhitegoldd - So a repeatable wrath doesn't count as protecting itself? Whatever you say.
December 14, 2015 11:44 a.m.
@wwhitegoldd Same here... As well as being not that good, to me they are also a bit bland. Like Ulamog TCH's Exiling abillity just makes you want to buy one and play it, but the OotGW leaks are all a bit, well dull...
December 14, 2015 11:45 a.m.
Now to Chandra. She's also beautifully made. She protects herself by board wiping as she comes down, then can run away with the game by drawing insane amounts of cards, or by smashing the opponents skull in. Whichever you prefer.
At 6 mana, she's not incredible because she only starts with 4 loyalty. But that doesn't make her unplayable! Comes down, -3s. or not. I think she's great in abzan Red, or even Jeskai. If you have any sort of board when she comes down, she can either minus x to clear their guys and keep yours alive, or start the value train going. In middle of a complicated boardstate, she's going to be an incredible card. She turns the tide for how you can attack, or damages/kills whoever you need.
And I'm not even going into the 0, because WOW. Just wow. This is the reason she's 6 mana and starts with 4. A 0 that can draw you that many cards is absurd. Oh I need a Mantis Rider to win? Or like a Fiery Impulse or something? Ok drop Chandra and 0- discard my 6 card hand, draw 7! 7 chances at hitting my game winner.
Overall she's obviously not going to make an impact early in the game. But mid to late games she will be an absolute powerhouse for any midrange deck willing to try her. I know I am.
December 14, 2015 11:53 a.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #13
JWiley129, yeah it counts. But it doesn't actually do anything. By turn six there will be enough big stuff on the board that it won't matter. Plus it's detrimental to your own board state.
December 14, 2015 11:53 a.m.
I'm interested to see people's comments on my evaluations. I love both walkers. They're conservatively made, especially Chandra, but are still great. Nissa is going to be a format staple without a doubt, and Chandra is a great value train in mid to late game
December 14, 2015 11:58 a.m.
wwhitegoldd - That's matchup dependent. Against Abzan it's true you can't kill Anafenza, the Foremost without her -4 and you can't kill a Siege Rhino. But she does kill Mantis Riders, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip, Snapping Gnarlid, Zurgo Bellstriker, and the other X/3's in Standard right now that also keeps her alive. Dash certainly pressures her, same with haste threats like Flamewake Phoenix, but that's true of any planeswalker. I think you're sorely underestimating Chandra's power.
December 14, 2015 noon
Chandra's supposed 'board wipe' is for 3 Toughness creatures or less. (4 and she's dead anyway)
That's not going to do much at Turn 6. - And to call it 'repeatable' is completely false. By the time you get to effectively do it a secant time... she's dead.
If it wasn't for the situational card advantage, I would be out-right calling her the worst Chandra yet.
December 14, 2015 12:05 p.m.
In some ways, she reminds me of Narset Transcendent: both do some things that get me very excited but neither has an ability that says "I win." I know those aren't the abilities we judge 'walkers on, but...
December 14, 2015 12:12 p.m.
Aric_Haldan says... #18
chandra + Sphinx's Tutelage for the win :D
Secure the Wastes + Nissa/Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Nissa + Hardened Scales
all by all I really like the new planeswalkers :D
December 14, 2015 12:12 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #19
Can I just throw my two cents in? Both of the Planeswalkers revealed so far (Chandra and Nissa) are super underwhelming. Chandra is good for a one-sided wheel effect but that's literally it. Her ult hits your creatures too, so there's no ult/boardwipe/swing for lethal shenanigans afoot. And Nissa... She'd be viable in a token EDH deck but that's about it. Maybe in a Lands Matter deck like Omnath, Locus of Rage or Mina and Denn.
December 14, 2015 12:15 p.m.
Rayenous - I didn't know we were talking about trig functions in Magic now.
And that's why I said it's matchup dependent. She's not the best Chandra ever, that's Chandra, Pyromaster. But she's also not the worst. Plus, look at some board states in Standard on Turn 6. Yes there are Siege Rhinos and Tasigur, the Golden Fangs. But there are also Zurgo Bellstrikers and Scythe Leopards. She's not meant for the Abzan matchup. She's meant for the weenie/aggro matchup, just like Anger of the Gods was.
December 14, 2015 12:15 p.m.
But in the weenie/aggro matchup, you shouldn't be aiming for T6... that's planning to die.
You need Radiant Flames for 2 or 3 on T3 or even Languish on T4.
A 6CMC sideboard card against decks that kill you by T5 is just bad.
Possibly good against Rally combo... but then you've just put all their creatures in the graveyard, exactly where they want them.
She could see play if there are enough supporting cards put 
into a grindy control deck... but she's no Elspeth, Sun's Champion. - She has no finishing 'umph'.
December 14, 2015 12:23 p.m.
AgentGreen says... #22
canterlotguardian I don't think Nissa is that underwhelming
I mean; if you need critters to sac for, say Smothering Abomination; there's your solution.
I see her as a way to feed your sacrifice pile so you can punch your way to a win
December 14, 2015 12:24 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #23
I mean, that new Nissa will be absurd in Limited.
December 14, 2015 12:25 p.m.
Yeah. Planeswalkers that make tokens as a + ability tend to be silly in limited.
December 14, 2015 12:28 p.m.
Rayenous - Here's what a 6-cmc 'walker needs to do. 1.) Put pressure to end the game. That's exactly what Chandra's +1 does. 2.) Provide a mechanism for getting ahead, and a one-sided Wheel of Fortune does exactly that. 3.) Protect herself. Now she doesn't protect herself in the sense of Ob Nixilis Reignited or Elspeth, Sun's Champion, but she can wrath the board.
Plus, you know what will help her playability? Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip. Thanks to Jace you can run 1-2 Chandra's in your maindeck, and pitch them away if you don't need it or she's a bad matchup. She's also great with Sphinx's Tutelage as noted above and drawing tons of cards is exactly what that deck wants to do.
December 14, 2015 12:29 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #26
I can see her as a 1 or 2-of in a Tutelage deck.
December 14, 2015 12:32 p.m.
Anyone else see "Sea Gate Ruins" and think, "Hey, this might play well in decks that run Lion's Eye Diamond"?
I'm not really a legacy player, but my mind wants to link the two.
December 14, 2015 12:43 p.m.
Wobbly_Bob says... #28
Manland with double strike? I'd run it if it was a 2/2. 2/1? Not so much.
December 14, 2015 1:05 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #29
guys? GUYS? GUYS??? Um, am I seeing things or are those expeditions real?
Like we new the filters, but Rishadan Port? Tectonic Edge? Dust Bowl? Strip Mine?????
December 14, 2015 1:39 p.m.
Seems they want this limited format to be full of basics. Though really, not playing any non-basics you might happen to get, just because of the slim chance somebody got an expedition Wasteland or something is a ridiculous idea.
December 14, 2015 1:42 p.m.
Both walkers are beautifully made and will have significant impact. (see my detailed explanation above)
Nissa:1) More Rally/aristocrats builds with hangarbacks - shes perfect here, obvious fit2) A LOT more hardened scales - obviously incredible here3) at least a sideboard option for abzan (for the midrange mirror), probably mainboard
Chandra:1)A lot more abzan red - should probably find a home here because she wont kill your dudes with the wrath2)A lot of jeskai decks will try it - it might work3) Perfect for dark temur (doesn't kill any of your fatties with the wrath, gives them consistent digging, contributes to burst potential). I feel this is one of her permanent homes.4) Grixis control? i could see it. (probably not tho)5) A ton more tutelage, chandra is a perfect fit6) Some more Big Red, though I doubt that matters. might not even fit too well there
I'm definitely gonna try both a lot. I also don't understand why there's no hype for nissa; she's obviously very good for a number of decks, including abzan...
December 14, 2015 1:43 p.m.
yeah, the Nissa hate is absurd. Go look at every 3-cmc planeswalker ever made. They all saw play in Standard and a few even transcend Standard and see play in older formats like Modern or Legacy. Domri Rade, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Jace Beleren, Liliana of the Veil, Dack Fayden, all super solid planeswalkers.
December 14, 2015 1:47 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #33
Modern playable? It's like it has been completly designed for Tron! Unfortunately, there aren't any 7 cmc game-ending eldrazi yet. 
December 14, 2015 1:53 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #34
....anyway.
Chandra seems very good. like, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker is a perfectly good and servicable planeswalker even if he's not the top echelon of "planeswalkers who protect themselves with tokens and free boardwipes". In fact I really love new chandra for a midrange-ier red deck with Thunderbreak Regent aforementioned Sarkhan, Flamewake Phoenix.
I don't think I can reasonably turn down "+1: swing for 6 this turn"
and at the end of the day, what does it actually matter if that's not the best thing you can do in standard. Like what's the worst thing that happens? You lose games, just like you'd lose with Abzan or splinter twin, or storm.
December 14, 2015 1:56 p.m.
It says cmc 7 or greater. This means all the Titans qualify. There are currently 16 Eldrazi creatures that can trigger it.
December 14, 2015 1:59 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #36
Yup, but what I meant is that none of them can hit the ground fast enough to make it a reliable 5 star board wipe. 8 CMC could be good too.
December 14, 2015 2:31 p.m.
Daretti, Master of the Infinity Gems welcomes new Chandra with open arms.
December 14, 2015 2:41 p.m.
AgentGreen says... #38
elpokitolama I'm sure there will be other cards that can help get the big Eldrazi down in a hurry.
That card is scary scary scary; especially vs. Ramp decks. The only safe thing to do with that is hit it with Spell Shrivel and keep it in the exile pile
December 14, 2015 3 p.m.
Do we know if pre-release will be 2 Headed Giant style?
Because I'd find that pretty epic!
December 14, 2015 3 p.m.
Kalitas is good, but I don't think he's Standard good. He could potentially act as a Rally the Ancestors hoser, but I don't think that's what you want to do with 4 mana.
He's definitely strong in Limited, and has some good potential as a Commander. But I just don't see it for competitive play.
December 14, 2015 3:41 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #42
really b/c he seems a lot like Sidisi, Brood Tyrant with the whole "my deck is built around making this 4 drop with a perfectly acceptable p/t a walking zombie factory"
December 14, 2015 3:47 p.m.
GreenGhost says... #43
Well if aristocrats becomes big this becomes a serious hoser for that strategy.
December 14, 2015 3:48 p.m.
There is a big difference between "making a 2/2 on ETB or attack" and "making a 2/2 whenever creatures opponent's control die." One you can build around, the other indicates a Sideboard card at best.
December 14, 2015 3:50 p.m.
Kalitas's ability to exile creatures could also be used to help feed your 'Processor' abilities...
Paired with Anafenza and Hallowed Moonlight, you have 2-drop, 3-drop, 4-drop Rally hosers... Lot's of options, but you don't really need all 3 options to hose the deck.
I don't think he'll see a lot of play until/if SoI has some Zombie/Vampire love'n.
December 14, 2015 4:20 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #46
you get a 2/2 with most instances of removal and most instances of trades in combat. I guess that qualifies as a difficult to build a deck around in Black.
I mean I don't honestly know what I expected, it feels like every spoiler season the mtg community only is interested in talking competitive play at the highest levels. Which always ends up being "it's fine in limited and commander" until the card proves it actually is worthwhile.
:/
December 14, 2015 4:39 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #47
I'm most excited for new Kalitas just because of the art. I love the parallel to his old art. Also I'm a sucker for flavor.
December 14, 2015 4:56 p.m.
Kalitas is easily my favorite legendary (the old one,second favorite is lorthos) and this one is pretty good. It's a better hoser than anafenza for graveyard shenanigans, and can be built around. 3/4 lifelink for 4 is not bad, and the sac ability is decent. I feel like you can build some sort of removal heavy deck around him to turn all your removal spells into 2/2s, but it would be a stretch. Hopefully somebody will try it and see if it's good or not.
I think and hope it will work, but i'll be too busy proving people wrong about chandra :D
December 14, 2015 5:17 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #49
The new Chandra is most likely to be seen in some form of URx standard control deck with her as not only a removal board wipe, but also as a win con. I would play her in Jeskai planeswalker control that runs 4x Jace, 4x Gideon and 4x Chandra and just a full bunch of removal and counterspells. Maybe some Mantis Riders.
December 14, 2015 8:43 p.m.
World Breaker has Hallowed Fountain in the background.
Putrefy says... #1
Tokens that die EOT.
ninja'd
December 14, 2015 8:46 a.m. Edited.