Official Spoiler Thread: Oath Of The Gatewatch
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2015, 5:58 p.m. by ChiefBell
Official Spoiler Thread.
Have at it.
I feel like the new wastes are somewhat of a response to EDH players who play Karn, Silver Golem and the like. That said, I like the premise but its most likely that these new land types will be treated like snow-lands, finding themselves only in a handful of sets.
December 4, 2015 5:54 p.m.
I'm thinking Wastes could potentially be the flip side of another land. I know the fact they're basic slightly makes this unlikely, but it could be a land with some form of counter (we've had similar lands before iirc), that when the last is removed the card flips giving a Waste. Unlikely, perhaps, but a possibility.
Loving the Ayli though, P/T is the way round for having Deathtouch, which is nice, and she could be fun with Smothering Abomination, especially with a decent token maker; Monastery Mentor and Sandsteppe Outcast are on colour and on curve. Might not be great, but sounds fun to test.
Two-headed Giant (THG) seems very Zendikari - I generally only play casual, so I'm not too sure if this is right, but I always find THG goes on a lot longer, and big things come out.
I think Oath of the Gatewatch is looking pretty good so far - hoping for a new Jace that isn't either 60 or Living Guildpact bad.
December 4, 2015 5:54 p.m.
KairuofKairu says... #4
RubyRobin I hope your idea for Wastes is how they're doing it, that could be a pretty interesting mechanic, like have cards that can turn lands into wastes or what not. Even if it's not how they're doing it, still props on the original idea!
December 4, 2015 6:01 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #5
RubyRobin I agreed with your entire previous post up until the point when you said you didn't like Jace, the Living Guildpact. This isn't me bashing you for your opinion, not by a long shot. I personally have just found that he gets left alone whenever I play him (which is why he's in every blue EDH deck I build) and when I finally ult him out of nowhere, I win within two to four turns.
Now as far as his viability in Standard? I have no clue. I haven't played Standard consistently since Born of the Gods, and when I do play Standard it's either Boros or Mardu aggro (i.e. not an Island in sight for miles). Same with Modern/Legacy/Turn 0 Win Format (Vintage).
But in EDH, at least the way I play it? He's a house.
December 4, 2015 6:11 p.m.
KairuofKairu, thanks, I just think it makes a lot of sense with what Wastes appear to be. I do find it interesting that Ulamog is largely associated with being the land eating titan (afaik, anyway), and only after he had almost completely consumed Zendikar did Kozilek appear, which seems to be reflected in Kozilek's <><> casting cost. Makes me wonder if whatever Kozilek does will tie in with Emrakul, if she does appear.
I'd never really thought of trying to use him like that, canterlotguardian, I just find that his +1 is too do-nothing for me, and certainly with the people I play with Planeswalkers get targetted instantly. I can see EDH being nice for him though, with his +1 helping draws significantly, and if needed you can just play him as a (very expensive) bounce. I might give him another try at some point, he might be fun in a Sultai deck I guess, especially with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and stuff like Dig Through Time, Become Immense and other various delve spells. Probably not very competitive (as it would need to be Modern), but would be fun for casual.
December 4, 2015 7:06 p.m.
@FAMOUSWATERMELON: What's up with the train with Fire Emblem: Fates characters (and the Japanese logo) on it? Seems wildly out of place. There has to be a more relevant hype train image.
December 4, 2015 7:22 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #8
It has good quality, it says "Choo Choo Motherfucker" which is not on a lot of images, and I'm lazy.
Reasons.
December 4, 2015 7:35 p.m.
kyuuri117, so I don't really disagree with you in principle - but I do disagree with your reasoning. BFZ was fine, i'm not gonna argue it's amazing; but not enjoying a set is not the same as it being a flop.
I'd call a set a set a flop if it failed financially. The same way movies are flops at the box office whether I like them or not. Saying that would have failed if not for the expeditions is a meaningless statement. Besides it being purely hypothetical, any set could be said to be considerably worse if you removed it's best cards, and we'd still have no data to support its financial success.
Saying value isn't there is incorrect. Value isn't there if you remove the expeditions (similar problem as above), and a sets total value always moves towards equalizing to its purchase price. ie. there is only so much value to go around, if it's mostly tied up in certain cards, other cards will become relatively cheaper. There are decent explanations of this effect on a few mtg finance sites that do box EV's if you feel like some googling/reading.
Not having eternal playables is a fair enough argument, but most sets don't have more than 2 or 3 that break into that category, so it's hard to fault them.
Personally, I'd say you should take these oddities as all part of the fun of the game. It should switch up every so often; there should be a 5 colour standard meta every once in a while, the introduction of wastes, print stupid Siege Rhinos etc. I will totally look back on the time I played a 5 colour Bring to Light deck as being awesome, even if everyone was doing it - cuz it only lasted 6 months and then completely changed again.
December 4, 2015 9:33 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #11
Please try not to forget that limited is a format as well.
And BFZ has been great fun to draft. For me, that makes it a good set.
December 4, 2015 11 p.m.
I can concur battle for zendikar was the most memorable prerelease I've ever played in.
December 4, 2015 11:31 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #13
I tied for first at my BFZ prerelease. My winnings packs contained both Gideon and Drana, so I was pretty happy about that.
December 5, 2015 12:38 a.m.
StarMonkey says... #14
Brolamog_the_Infinite_Higher I definitely agree with you. BFZ doesn't have a super high power level, and neither does Origins (but people ignore that because it's a core set). Khans block had some truly absurd cards in it, so it makes sense that whatever set comes after it is going to seem bad by comparison if they don't want to powercreep the game. BFZ is also one of the best draft sets IMO, and I've heard other people echo that same sentiment.
As for general playability in other formats, most sets that don't introduce some crazy new mechanic that ends up being too powerful tend to have a small collection of cards that actually get played outside of their respective standard formats. That's only natural because with the colossal card base available to modern and the even larger one available to legacy, decks are pretty much set in stone and the only way a card is going to see play is if it either does something new that's so absurdly powerful it merits building an entire deck around it, or if it's better than something already being played. Again, you can't expect to consistently do that without the kind of powercreep that ruins games.
There's also the idea that's been thrown around a bit about WOTC introducing a new format that would be late 2014 onward, since counterfeit cards really are an issue for them and that was when they introduced their new copy protection system. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, but if they were to do that then trying to start the power level off fairly low is probably a good idea.
December 5, 2015 1:01 a.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #15
I'll just be 100% honest here and say that BfZ is not an amazing draft set. Green is so stupidly under-powered that BfZ efficiently is a 4-colour draft. That's not a fun format. I was stoked in the beginning with BfZ draft, too, but I really, really, really can't wait for Oath to release and fix this format.
December 5, 2015 1:26 a.m.
I made a prototype edh decklist for new unconfirmed kozilek. The idea is to use him as tank commander damage (tank in this case referring to his counter ability). Titanic Wrath
December 5, 2015 3:25 a.m.
unclenintendo says... #18
Yeah, BFZ has got a solid drafting archetype for most colors, and some of the "devoid" stuff is going to find its way into Commander decks, whether or not it produced any Commander "staples." Flavor-wise, it's a very fun set, I think. Originally the Eldrazi felt a bit boring to me, but splashing the drones into the five colors but making them colorless takes the generic "otherworldly, incomprehensible Lovecraftian thing" and makes it a little more variable and interesting, giving it a Magic-specific take on it. It's probably not the best set they've ever made, but it's solidly okay, in my opinion. I probably do come at it a little more casually, though. It's true that it's mostly just Gideon showing up in the Abzan aggro that's dominating professional play, but the format gets solved so quickly these days, and at least things are rotating out of Standard quicker.
I do sort of still hope Wastes isn't real. A common in a small set doesn't seem to solve the "Barry's land" dilemma when it comes to the secondary market, even if they've solved the "it would add a new type of basic" dilemma by making it, well, not a new "type" of basic. The only ways I can see it working are tapping for colorless (which is what most people assume, but I guess there is no evidence for), which will make them pricey later, or else they're specific to Eldrazi combos specifically within the set, which might make drafting it kind of weird. I'll wait to reserve judgment until it's confirmed and we can see what it works with, though. I can never tell until Gatherer's search gets populated and I can play around with concepts.
I do like the idea of encouraging two-headed giant, though. That's a fun way to shake up the pre-release, and cards which encourage teamwork are usually decent for Commander.
December 5, 2015 10:43 a.m.
@ StarMonkey BFZ the best draft set? My experience from it is that green is extremely underpowered and pros have been twitting jokes about it too. And please don't start the ''yeah well no one drafts green at my FNM's so I take all the good stuff'' talk, even then it's still weak.
Another disapointment I've gotten from BFZ is the ''split direction'' ''no coming back'' draft, which seems to happen to at least one player every 8 man draft. It's when you start lets say white with allies, then after 3 picks no more allies come and you take white and black lifegain, then 3 pick later no more of either allies or lifegain cards so you take unsynergistic cards, at the end of the draft you're left with a deck with lifegain, 4 allies, some fliers and some unsupportable good cards from other colors you took in a desperate attempt to switch...Finally, appart from the expeditions which are extremely extremely rare, BFZ supports few value and situations where the 1st picker picks a land and the second picker picks something worth 4 bucks happens way to often.
December 5, 2015 10:45 a.m.
Grantley91 says... #20
So has there been any actual spoilers or are we just going to use this thread to complain about the new set that hasn't even come out yet?
December 5, 2015 10:48 a.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #21
The problem with BFZ is the variance. You either drafted an archetype or you where screwed. And even then you had to draft a GOOD archetype (basically awaken or devoid or you had to get really lucky and get a good allies deck). Same thing with just cracking packs. You either got an expedition or gideon or you got squat and considering the chance of pulling one of those, MOST of the time you just pull squat. On a side note, my friend plays in a local library tourny every week and the total prizes are 7 boosters. When ever I talk to him I'll ask if anybody pulled anything and he always says no. Every other set they've given boosters from at least every other tournament if not more regular some one has pulled something worth something. That alone tells you something about BFZ.
Also, you can't just say well it must be good 'cause all these people are saying "yeah I pulled an expedition". But what you don't hear is ALL the other people who pull squat because nobody says "YEAH! I pulled shit." Same thing with drafting. You hear a bunch of people saying oh yeah I loved the format. Those are probably the people that got lucky and draft the good decks (I'm not saying they get all the good decks all the time but they probably get them a lot more than other people). But you don't hear all the people that scrub out all the time.
December 5, 2015 10:50 a.m.
KairuofKairu says... #22
Grantley91 You sound awfully sour about the discussion so far. People are just discussing what they think about the possibilities of Gatewatch may be like. It's a Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation thread so not everything has to have been confirmed for us to talk about it. If you don't like the way the discussion is going you can give your opinion on it or just unsubscribe and walk away. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so everyone's complaints (including my own) are completely valid.
December 5, 2015 11:03 a.m.
unclenintendo says... #23
Isn't a split going to happen with any drafting situation, though? I mean, green is weak, but my impression is that it's better than Origins, in which white was The Color to Choose. The Boros Allies deck specifically does sort of require that you don't have a lot of competition for it, but taking a risk at an archetype you might not be able to build is just part of drafting, yes?
December 5, 2015 11:09 a.m.
Grantley91 says... #24
KairuofKairu Oh, I haven't been reading the discussions or anything but the last time there was a spoiler thread it was devoted to spoilers, and there was a different thread for discussions. I know it's technically in the S,R,S forum but I would love to see some actual spoilers. ;)
Also I'm not upset, if it came off as snarky or angry it was probably just the whole "waking up earlier than I'd like to" thing that transferred to text. My apologies.
December 5, 2015 11:51 a.m.
KairuofKairu says... #25
Grantley91 Oh, I understand completely then, sorry if my reaction seemed just a little to defensive. There are a few "spoilers" but most haven't been confirmed yet. The general consensus (as far as I know, some people may debate this) is that the Orzhov legendary is most likely legitimate and the "Waste centric" cards are still unknown and people are debating if they are real and what they could mean for the game. There are pictures of the four cards above. That said, a lot of this is still speculation on how the set may play out and how the fore mentioned Wastes may play into the game.
December 5, 2015 12:02 p.m.
AlucardZain says... #26
I just hope we get more Elves, cuz I'm building a B/G Standard Elf Tribal. I'm not too much into this coming set (more looking forward to Shadows over Innistrad in April), but hopefully we do get some good cards in Oath.
The only thing I see good that we got out of BfZ was Void Winnower, especially if he's used in EDH/Commander. One of my friends has him in his Sidisi deck, and he shuts down my Avacyn EDH. I still think that card should've never been made, but it's a good card nonetheless.
December 5, 2015 12:52 p.m.
Is there anyone else who are viewing wastes in the same bubble as the snow-covered basics, where they produce both a new and regular type of mana? I feel that the wastes will be used as a colorless edition, and instead of producing that weird ice mana, they will make whatever <> is. Is that just stating the obvious? As for long-term usage, I'm guessing there will be a few broken cards that will require waste synergy. They might be played in affinity, or some other colorless strategies, but wastes will be mostly forgotten over time. Does that make sense?
December 5, 2015 1:25 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #28
I believe there needs to be a larger pool of allies to choose from in the standard card pool, I understand the this is set 2/2 for this block but I am hurting for some more b/w allies to add to my deck. Along with the hope that we get reprints of certain cards with Innistrad coming up. I honestly believe Sorin will be printed in Oath so that he can help the defeat the Eldrazi. Also hes rotating out next set so I am really just hoping I can get another one to fill the would be empty slots in my deck.
December 5, 2015 2 p.m.
I don't think Sorin will be in oath but I'm willing to place a pretty high bet that he and another certain red scumbag useless never should've been printed was of a mythic planes walker will be returning in shadows since it is there home turf.
The reason being if you've been reading the story for BfZ when Jace and Ugin spoke Ugin wanted to find Jace on inistrad and since he's clearly on the cover it'll make sense if everyone's favorite vampire will appear if not nahiri the angel of hope
December 5, 2015 2:38 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #30
My current theory for the wasted mana is that it's just colorless mana that can be used as any color for devoid cards.
December 5, 2015 3:47 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #31
December 5, 2015 3:48 p.m.
IvoryFrost says... #32
That is glorious.
I don't know how I feel about this set with what I've read (more focused around two headed).
Or maybe it's because I feel like crap right now.
Still I love the artwork on the waste land
December 5, 2015 4:51 p.m.
shepherdofire says... #33
2 headed giant? really? where'd you see that IvoryFrost?
December 5, 2015 5:53 p.m.
KairuofKairu says... #36
ChiefBell True.
FAMOUSWATERMELON MY GOD YES.
CkajLanoa That's actually a pretty smart way to look at it.
December 5, 2015 9:02 p.m.
Yeah, no. I'm not going to buy this set in bulk, only the singles that I might need...
For instance, that Kor Cleric.
December 5, 2015 10:40 p.m.
GoblinBushwacker says... #38
On the topic of oath of the gate watch and spoilers, Stoneforge Mystic was released as the 2016 promo, any chance this is an indication that Stoneforge Mystic could be unban in modern with the release of oath of the gatewatch
December 5, 2015 11:33 p.m.
ComixWriter says... #39
Placed at common rarity, Wastes may see play in colorless artifact decks or for use with other decks where search-for/number-of-basic-lands-in-play effects become important. A few cards in the upcoming set may highlight these effects, or add more. As far as availability, how many artifact lands did we get in Mirroden sets?
December 5, 2015 11:35 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #40
@GoblinBushwaker Let's just say it's highly unlikely that Stoneforge Mystic would be unbanned in Modern. Batterskull + Stoneforge Mystic is just too strong.
December 5, 2015 11:39 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #41
GoblinBushwacker We've been discussing SFM unban in another thread for a bit now. I've been making SFM modern decks for the past couple of days now. Naya Zooblade has been quite powerful and Abzan Stoneblade looks like it could have a ton of potential, although I haven't gotten around to testing the Abzan variant yet.
December 6, 2015 12:43 a.m.
SandwichMan007 says... #43
Gonna sub to this 'cause I'm a massive standard scrub
December 6, 2015 12:48 a.m.
I just realized lore wise the nature of the eldrazi changed over the thousands of years they were exposed to the hedrons. In the story with The Three( Ugin Nahiri Sorin) it was shown Ulamog preceded world altering events not Kozilek (like when he erupted from the ground. And in the story there were none of the formations that created the wastes like we saw in that story. I believe it maybe possible that while zendikar is being fed on its mana is so diverse and powerful it maybe being used by the eldrazi as a breeding ground to create possibly 1-2 more Titans.
December 6, 2015 8:29 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #47
so I have to wait another month-ish to find out if that's actually Ayli on that card? D:
December 6, 2015 9:39 a.m.
I wouldn't judge Wastes too much yet. WotC isn't stupid enough to "ruin" the game for a small set. They have to have something else in mind, and I doubt that Wastes is going to be a sixth colour.
In any case, people seem to be upset with the new Kozilek. That's usually because they are viewing it the wrong way. Eldrazi Titans are typically finishers, but this one is slightly different. It's designed to draw out all of the opponent's resources (especially removal) so that you can land another threat (i.e. Ulamog) that will finish your opponent- effectively removal bait (except if you don't kill it then you are still going to die, so you may as well blow all your removal).
Yes. Ulamog is surprisingly fragile. It doesn't matter that it's indestructible when it just gets killed by Utter End, or Crackling Doom, or Foul-Tongue Invocation, or Scatter to the Winds, or Abzan Charm... Each deck plays a lot of ways to take down Ulamog, hence why you play Kozilek. Notice anything in particular? All of those except for Utter End cost 3 mana, so if you play Kozilek, make sure you play plenty of 3-drops (and a few 4-drops, I suppose, just to be safe).
December 6, 2015 10:02 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #49
DarkLaw given the track record of WotC lately I half expect them to run the game into the ground every few sets. And judging the Waste basic land is perfectly legitimate. WotC is pretty much dividing the set mechanics into something unworkable. If you wanted to focus on colourless mana then that should have been in the first set, instead you got Eldrazi that used coloured mana.
For those who are defending BFZ from not being a flop. Removal the Expeditions and what are you left with in this set? Furthermore, in terms of playable cards in Standard there's almost nothing of note. Standard has barely changed. In fact, I am fairly certain that BFZ has had the least amount of impact on Standard in recent memory. Therefore, BFZ is a failure of a set.
December 6, 2015 10:25 a.m.
CanadianShinobi While I agree that BFZ was lackluster, I don't think it was a total failure. It had like 224 cards in it, which is a very small amount for a set. Of those 224, 40-45 are either standard staples or sideboard staples, and another 20+ see binge play. That's not too bad for the set after a major block. Khans block and Origins were powerhouses of sets, and they pushed the boundaries of power creep. I think that WotC dialed back the power level of sets after the disaster that was Khans+Origins.
So yea, BFZ wasn't too exciting, but the lower power level is justified, and the set is definitely not a failure
Ej1997 says... #1
I'm getting highly excited for the two headed giant and I'm hoping the incorporate it in drafting and the prerelease. It's an awesome format and had little support and it needs more
December 4, 2015 4:57 p.m.