Official Spoiler Thread: Oath Of The Gatewatch
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2015, 5:58 p.m. by ChiefBell
Official Spoiler Thread.
Have at it.
CanadianShinobi Yeah, BFZ was probably the worst set we've had in a while. I'm optimistic for OGW that they regain their senses and print some decent cards.
December 6, 2015 11:10 a.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #3
I just hope the won't mess up SOI. I want me some vampires.
December 6, 2015 11:12 a.m.
I disagree Ashockfan. KTK was actually a very balacend set and so was origins. While I agree that Origins was DESIGNED to be a power set, I don't believe it met standards. I feel like WotC went overboard in trying to not overpower Zendikar again, but I think they went to far in the other direction. The one reason standard is kind of in ruins right now is because of Jace. Not the whole Origins set, but Jace. For a playset right now it is $200+.
December 6, 2015 11:13 a.m.
lol i miscounted the second time 224 is correct.\
DarkLaw BFZ is the worst set in awhile, but its warranted. theyve pushed the power level WAY too high, so dialing it back a little isnt the end of the world.
and 45/224 cards seeing considerable standard or sideboard play with another 20-25 seeing binge play is totally reasonable in a standard that includes powerhouse sets such as khans block and origins. thats about 31.25% of BFZ seeing standard play. Again, not terrible when cards like Siege Rhino, Anafenza, the Foremost, Wingmate Roc and Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy exist all in the same standard
December 6, 2015 11:19 a.m.
@Mogis_Mtg Origins was designed to be a power set, and maybe it didnt live up to expectations, but they still had a boatload of extremely good cards.
As for khans being a balanced set, i don't know what cards you're looking at. Every single clan was playable for a time (and temur is now). The multicolor rares are bonkers, as are some of the regular rares and mythics, and random delve crap is seeing LEGACY PLAY. Not to mention Dig and cruise, but who would've expected Hooting Mandrills to be legacy played?
December 6, 2015 11:24 a.m.
If your judging a set based solely on the value of the cards on the secondary market then your doing it wrong (like really really wrong). Wizards isn't out to create the most expensive secondary market possible, they're out to design sets that will create diversity in standard. That means the success of a set isn't determined by how much people will pay game shops on the secondary markert, but rather by how diverse and playable they make standard. SO, considering that since the lull that was RTR-THS standard there hasn't been just one deck dominating the pro tour and new competetive decks pop up every week, I'd say that all of the most recent sets have been a fairly big success. Honestly, if a set were a complete flop it'd be extremely obvious because of the impact it would have on standard. The meta would stop changing, new decks would stop showing up, and we'd run into RTR-THS standard all over again (none of which has happened). So if your gonna judge the success of a set and then declare it to others, you need to leave your personal opinion out of it because in reality your PERSONAL OPINION does not and will not have an effect on how successful the set is.
December 6, 2015 11:31 a.m.
Harashiohorn says... #8
I think people are just frustrated because Zendikar used to be the block that would push the boundaries, and was overpowered. I think it's safe to say last time with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and so on, Zendikar block was insane, and while the fetches were much appreciated for the eternal formats, outside of that temporary experiment that was delver, Theros, Khans, and thus far BFZ haven't had all that many eternal playables (With of course the exception of the all mighty Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy. This Zendikar was instead the block to reign in power and power that was isolated more to the standard community than to the eternal communities. The standard price spikes, were actually matched by eternal price declines :P. Even Tron the patron deck of Eldrazi only got one, maybe two somewhat fringe 1 of's.
December 6, 2015 11:31 a.m.
abenz419 Thank you. I completely agree, and that's another way of looking at it than I did in my comment above... 70 playables in 224 cards is fine, especially with them trying to reign in the power creep
December 6, 2015 11:40 a.m.
Harashiohorn says... #10
well actually Limited is quite possibly the biggest priority of all, as that's the most direct source of revenue, and in that regard various arguments can be made. KTK/DTK limited was unique, for sure... Whether that was in a good way or bad way is debatable. Origins limited was real fun, but BFZ limited... Well it's been rather dull. Eldrazi typically beat Allies every time, probably because there are 51 eldrazi, and only 37 allies, the Eldrazi also have several more mythics. Awaken is cool, but clocking in with only 16 cards, and lacking any creatures... It's more of an auxiliary than something you would actually draft. Landfall makes a return, with only three? (Double check me on that) enablers of multiple landfall triggers on one turn, which is hardly something to draft around. Converge takes a lot of luck to pull off in a set with Evolving Wilds some rare lands, and Pilgrim's Eye at uncommon as its pretty much only fixing. Ramp is still a thing, but most of the things you would actually want to ramp into are only at rare or higher, Ruin Processor just isn't the same as Ulamog's Crusher. Beyond that there are some subdivisions within the eldrazi, but lets be honest here, processor is an added bonus, not the focus, either aggro beatdown or ramp is the focus. Ping-lifegain is a thing, but without Felidar Sovereign it's an odd thing. While BFZ has been better for standard than Theros-RTR, I would much rather draft pretty much any other set over the past couple years (outside of the M sets) than BFZ, you can't even really value draft it (I know secondary price values don't count etc. etc.). So I feel like peoples decrying of BFZ, especially if wastes turn out to be real, is fairly justified, especially from the limited standpoint.
December 6, 2015 11:59 a.m.
I'm sorry but battle for zendikar was not a failure of a set. Personally I think the only set I've enjoyed more then this was dragons of tarkir. That's only because I've loved dragons since I was a kid. The reason Battle for Zendikar barely made a dent in standard is because the entire tarkir block was so good. Look how many game very strong cards their were in that set (rhino mantis rider deathmist raptor den protector collected company Ugin) it's hard to compare. There are multiple cards in this set that would have been viable when compared to another set but BfZ just doesn't compare to the mass of broken cards that came from tarkir.
December 6, 2015 12:02 p.m.
ComixWriter says... #12
WotC gives Standard Pauper Mage-Ring Bully + Titan's Strength + Temur Battle Rage, and then prompted drops support of the format they just broke. In player-ran tournaments on MTGO, Izzet (read: Red+Treasure Cruise) Prowess wins about 75% of its matches. Whatever the next set gives us, I hope it better answers the metagame of common-rarity cards.
December 6, 2015 12:07 p.m.
Sorry to say, I don't think WotC recognizes pauper (might be wrong)
December 6, 2015 12:08 p.m.
ComixWriter says... #14
Yeah, the all-common rarity format used to exist on MTGO via either a 'Pauper" or "Standard Pauper" filter until a few weeks ago. Read more about it, here: http://writeradept.blogspot.com/2015/11/long-odds.html
December 6, 2015 12:10 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #15
Ej1997 There are certainly some cards that would have/will be good in some standards but lets not kid ourselves, BFZ wouldn't have had more of an impact in RTR standard, or Innistrad, or Scars, or Original Zendikar standard, maybe it would have had an impact in Theros, but that is only one possibility of the past 5 standards it would have impacted more than it currently is, but it's not like Tarkir sent out an unprecedented amount of "Broken cards" its just that BFZ sent out a large chunk of noticeably less powerful cards. (Also, I don't think Alara, shadowmoor, Lorwyn, Timespiral, original Ravnica, original Mirrodin, or Urza block would be much impressed or moved by BFZ, so maybe Kamigawa and theros? since the start of the sets included in the modern era?)
December 6, 2015 12:14 p.m.
THE_WTF_Brewer says... #16
I REALLY hope there are no wastes, they are hopefully just a joke. snow lands required a specific type of deck to use them. someone needs to talk to mark rosewater about this.
December 6, 2015 12:53 p.m.
I don't think it is a joke lol. I'm not really sure what to expect, but its new. A lot of people are against the idea, but its new. I know we're all a little resistant to change, however, new can be good.
December 6, 2015 1:44 p.m.
I havent seen any good arguments against waste because all of them hinge on how the set is developed and obviously, having not seen the set, or even hoe wastes work, thats a stupid line of reasoning.
December 6, 2015 1:51 p.m.
@Harashiohorn Your taking that out of context. BFZ was specifically designed to play with the sets it will be Standard legal with. Throwing it into the middle of some other block and comparing them proves nothing because they didn't design BFZ to be apart of those blocks. It's guaranteed that BFZ would have been designed completely different had it's release date put it in the middle of a different block, hence why you can't compare how the set looks now with how it'd play in another block.
Don't forget, BFZ is designed to work with the sets it'll be standard legal with. That means we've only seen half of the cards the set is designed to work around. Plus, all of the Tarkir block cards that make up a big part of standard right now will be gone before BFZ, so the meta will undergo at least one giant overhaul before these cards even rotate out. Seems a little harsh, (and next to impossible), to say BFZ was a failure when we still haven't experienced everything BFZ has to offer standard/limited.
December 6, 2015 1:52 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #20
I don't get why bfz was a failure. It had full art lands, expeditions, eldrazi, and landfall, which everyone wanted. It HAS changed standard, making 4 colour mana bases possible and adding Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to the mix.
Yes, standard is basically khans block constructed + jace + better lands, but in a highly synergistic set like bfz half of the cards are still missing. Bfz is a good limited set and was financially successful, so just because it wasn't mega-powered like ktk or original zendikar sets were doesn't mean it's a failure. Just a bit disappointing, that's all.
December 6, 2015 5:11 p.m.
GoblinBushwacker says... #21
pumpkinwavy the reason people don't like bfz is because it didn't do a lot for eternal formats.
December 6, 2015 6:04 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #22
GoblinBushwacker as a Modern player I flat out disagree with your statement. I don't like BFZ because it brought almost nothing to Standard and it was immensely overhyped and then baffling underwhelming.
pumpkinwavy if you were to remove the expeditions from the set do you think the set would still be financially successful? Calling the set a disappointment is a fucking understatement.
December 6, 2015 6:56 p.m.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that. Though I wonder if we'll see a new Nissa as well.
December 6, 2015 7:33 p.m.
Supports the Barry's Land idea, plus, the art is featured in the 'Art of Magic the Gathering: Zendikar' Book
December 6, 2015 8:22 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #29
OOOOHHHHAAAAHHHHHAOOOOOOAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT'S AN EXPEDITION FILTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT'S SO SHINYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
December 6, 2015 8:24 p.m. Edited.
TheNextRedDude says... #30
Also takes away credibility from the theory that <> = 1.
December 6, 2015 8:24 p.m.
GreenGhost says... #33
Wait, don't you mean that this adds to the theory that <> = 1?
December 6, 2015 8:29 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #35
Mina and Denn is just bulk though, unfortunately. Nothing special there. It'll probably see standard play, but definitely not in modern.
December 6, 2015 8:31 p.m.
GreenGhost says... #36
What about EDH? I could totaly see playing her in my Omnath, Locus of Rage EDH as a budget alternative to Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
December 6, 2015 8:34 p.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #37
Well, since I believe there have already been filter lands with allied colors, then this would be an effective reprint. Also, Mina and Denn will fit right into my deck.
December 6, 2015 8:36 p.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #39
Well now I feel silly. Well, the opposite of what I just said is now basically confirmed.
December 6, 2015 8:43 p.m.
Sees the expedition Filter.
Not my proudest fap, I'll admit, but not my least proud either.
I wonder if they'll also reprint the Filters as non-expeditions to be standard-legal. Hmm....
December 6, 2015 8:46 p.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #42
Probably not. They need to complete two cycles still, don't have the space, they don't.
December 6, 2015 8:48 p.m.
Fair point. And I'll admit, I'd much rather see enemy tango lands and the remaining enemy Man Lands than a reprint of the Filters.
December 6, 2015 8:50 p.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #44
And with <> confirmed as 1, Ha! I told you so!
I think it's cool, but I could have done it better...
THIS SUCKS! I QUIT MAGIC!
December 6, 2015 8:58 p.m.
GreenGhost says... #45
Well they don't need to complete the tangoland cycle. They are most certainly going to finish the manlands. So for the expeditions because there are supposed to be 25, I'm predicting filterlands, manlands and the other 5 tangos. Just cause I said they don't need to finish them doesn't mean I don't think they will.
December 6, 2015 8:59 p.m.
YESS I LOVE FILTER LANDS THEYRE AWESOME. They turn itself AND another land into duals
December 6, 2015 9:17 p.m.
Grantley91 says... #47
But if Newzilek takes 2 <>s specifically (as far as the unconfirmed spoiler says), how can that be the same?
December 6, 2015 9:19 p.m.
OH THATS WHY THEY REPRINTED FILTERS!!!! CUZ THEY TAP FOR COLORLESS
December 6, 2015 9:23 p.m.
this <> is becoming less of a crazy speculation/bad design to something that could actually work...
both pain lands and filters tap for colorless in standard, and theres wastes and mirrorpool if you need more
Ashockfan says... #1
Correction. it actually had 209 - 214 cards unless mythic spoiler is missing some
December 6, 2015 11:10 a.m.