Official Spoiler Thread: Oath Of The Gatewatch
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2015, 5:58 p.m. by ChiefBell
Official Spoiler Thread.
Have at it.
JakeHarlow says... #2
I think they'll still be able to kill you before they kill themselves, Midexin. Unless you have other control pieces to back it up. And even then, I feel like there are better options in that slot. Plus, you now have an arguably better Drown in Sorrow at three mana.
On a related note, does everybody get the impression that this set hates on aggro hard?...because I certainly do... :(
January 9, 2016 11:48 a.m.
Its insane! Spatial Contortion trades 100% even with Stormchaser Mage, and that's in a fringe playable deck. It also hates on....everything aside from Kozilek's Sentinel..... Reality Hemorrhage isn't lightning strike, which makes a HUGE difference, the list is nearly endless lol. RIP aggro.
January 9, 2016 11:54 a.m.
@JakeHarlow, so instead of a 2-of Visions of Brutality, in a B/W "control" deck, what do I run?
January 9, 2016 12:20 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #5
Well, it misses all of the devoid cards, but Ultimate Price hits quite a lot in the format still (especially against the aggro decks). I think that's still quite a solid 2-drop removal spell in black. There's also that 2-mana white spell in the new set that's an instant "destroy target attacking creature" -- definitely not bad. You've also got Celestial Flare from Origins if that's more your speed, but the 
can get awkward to cast at times. Finally, Valorous Stance is solid because it can save one of your guys or take care of a bomb. So there are options. Also, if you're worried about the Aggro matchups a lot, you can always carry Surge of Righteousness in your sideboard.
Oh, and don't forget that Murderous Cut is almost always a reasonable 1-of! :)
January 9, 2016 12:34 p.m. Edited.
Nightdragon779 says... #6
Ooh vampire envoy combos with cohort. Still pretty bad mechanic tho.
January 9, 2016 12:36 p.m.
For some reason, I see Grasp of Darkness and I'm like "Damn it, where's my Phyrexian Obliterator?".
Seriously, it doesn't quite feel right.
January 9, 2016 3:18 p.m.
DarkLaw - First off, an 0/1 protects Nissa just as well as a 1/1. Sure it lets them attack with X/1s that a 1/1 wouldn't. Sure, no one is going to be scared of an 0/1, but it does protect Nissa.
Second, her -2 is a "permanent" Glorious Anthem for all your creatures. And you'd be delusional not to think she'd get played in Abzan. Nissa gets better when one of two things is true 1) you make lots of creatures or 2) you have big creatures. This lets you attack through your opponent if they have similar creatures to you.
Third, you shouldn't be playing a planeswalker b/c of their Ultimate. That said, Nissa's is very powerful for a 3 mana green planeswalker. Getting your own Sphinx's Revelation is great. Now yeah, she had to make a bunch of Plant tokens to do that. But planeswalkers only ultimate when you have a game comfortably in command. So that means evaluating a planeswalker on their ultimate is not as important as the abilities they have access to when you cast them.
Lastly, and I have to stress this, you shouldn't evaluate one 'walker by comparing them to the best planeswalker in Standard. Gideon is a house. No question. And I'm not even saying that Nissa is better than Gideon. What I am saying is that Nissa will see play and she will be good. As I mentioned previously, all Standard legal 3-cmc planeswalkers saw play in Standard, and were good. And Dack Fayden would have as well if he would have been Standard legal.
January 9, 2016 3:32 p.m.
Nightdragon779 says... #9
Will the OGW packs contain BFZ full art lands? Cuz usually sets are spoiled with their basic lands, but OGW doesn't have any.
WotC could go for flavor by replacing all basic lands usually in the back with wastes, but then we wouldn't get full art lands. Any thoughts?
January 9, 2016 5:16 p.m.
RedDiomedes says... #10
I think Jesaki Agro may be a killer!
CMC1 -Monastery Swifstpears
CMC1 -Storm chaser Mage
CMC1 -Mantis Rider
CMC1 -Zada
play spells as appropriate! If you Spatial Contortion a stormchaser Mage and its controller can play a spell. It becomes a 2/4 and lives, thanks to spatial contortion it will than become a flying 5/1. Given that Jeskai also now has access to at least 4 CMC1 instants triggering prowess will always be a very real possibility. Titan's Strength, Defiant Strike, expedite and now slip through space.
January 9, 2016 5:18 p.m.
Yes. Usually small sets in the same block have the basic lands from the large set. Khans block was an exception b/c of the time-travel aspect.
January 9, 2016 5:18 p.m.
Thank god because my LGS jacked up the prices of everything because of them XD
January 9, 2016 5:46 p.m.
ComixWriter says... #13
I enjoy playing Standard Pauper (MTGO), despite the loss of a filter. Currently, Izzet Prowess dominates the format. Am I wrong to anticipate more viable Ally decks with a Standard, common-only cardpool? Am I missing any new tech for just common cards?
January 9, 2016 6:45 p.m.
More Nissa discussion with JWiley129.
Among debates, this is the Endless One. Show
I'll probably write my thoughts on Chandra tomorrow. Planeswalkers are always hard to judge.
January 9, 2016 7:37 p.m.
DarkLaw - We can agree that planeswalkers are hard to judge. And I bet that we could have just as lengthy and lively discussion about how good Chandra, Flamecaller is.
Protecting a planeswalker just means that it does something that impacts the board. Either by making a token, or by removing the opponent's creatures. And yes, an 0/1 is probably the worst token made by a Planeswalker yet. However you cannot underestimate the ability to make a token as a + ability. That is what, in my opinion, makes Nissa very strong.
Also, using creatures with evasion to negate a the 0/1 token is not a viable argument. Yes, all those creatures attack past an 0/1. But you know what else they attack through? A 1/1 Soldier. A 2/2 Knight Ally. A 2/2 Flying Vampire. Those creatures are good because they pressure planeswalkers, and can largely ignore the tokens they produce. So using the best creatures to beat planeswalkers is largely useless in determining their viability. E.g., A Mantis Rider can attack a Sorin, Solemn Visitor at 2 after making a Vampire.
Comparing her to Gideon is also not viable. Yes, they both make tokens. Yes, they both have an Anthem effect. Yes, Gideon is better. The only deck that is even remotely token-y is the Esper tokens list, and Gideon is a 4-of there. The other decks that play Gideon do not play him b/c he makes tokens. They play him because he's just independently strong. He also turns into a 5/5 that kills the opponent, while Nissa does not.
You're argument also seems to indicate that I have some belief that "If I want to play Nissa, why not just play Gideon?" This is also incorrect. Why not put Nissa in a Simic deck? Or into Atarka Red? Or a Green-Black Aristocrats style deck? Sure, those decks may not be good, but Nissa is definitely preferable there over Gideon! Sure, the mana in Standard is very good. But remember that when you play more colors, you are slowing down your deck. Just because you can play 4+ colors, doesn't mean you should.
I highly doubt your assertion that "most decks run 4 Gideons." Maybe most White decks, but there are other decks in Standard aside from the White ones. For example, I'm watching GP Oakland coverage right now, and only a few decks actually are running Gideon. Sure, he's a 4-of in Abzan and Jeskai. But he's not played in the Rally deck, Esper control, or Atarka Red.
In my opinion, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar can be a 1-2 of in Atarka Red. Why? Because they can use any creature to win the game. Even a measely 0/1!
January 9, 2016 8:05 p.m.
I just started playing Pauper last week, UB Teachings, and I've gotta say, I've never really been excited over commons before. But Comparative Analysis, Sweep Away and Oblivion Strike (clearly the best common in the set) all look fantastic.
January 9, 2016 9:21 p.m.
Where can I buy/preorder or whatever the heck it is, singles? I would LOVE to grab those Dimensional Infiltrator's before they blow up.
January 9, 2016 9:42 p.m.
Guys any thoughts on all the aggro hate in this set?
Flaying Tendrils is, well, a better Drown in Sorrow because it stops delve.
Immolating Glare - cheap removal
Grasp of Darkness - beautiful reprint, always loved the card, insane cheap removal. see Bile Blight
Dazzling Reflection - JUST WHATTTTTTT... completely stops the combo, and is great for any decently sized creature, even like a 3/2 abbot
January 9, 2016 9:42 p.m.
January 9, 2016 9:44 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #21
January 9, 2016 10:45 p.m.
Quadsimotto says... #24
Been kind of out of the loop for a bit but trying to edge back in. Is this set going to part of standard format? Also, how does that work with it being two headed giant themed?
January 10, 2016 4:59 a.m.
JWiley129 You know, I think the most likely place for Nissa is actually in an aristocrats deck. That way we get some value from the tokens. Nissa could be used in Atarka Red, but once again I think there are just better options. I don't particularly enjoy talking about planeswalkers being played in fringe decks, such as mono-red control, because that doesn't necessarily mean that the planeswalker is good (no, I'm not saying that the above decks are fringe decks, I'm saying that the most successful decks tend to follow the ideas that I set out previously- e.g. Jeskai Black).
What also makes a planeswalker good is the amount of options they have, not just how good they are, and how flexible those options are (including the number of different situations that the options would be useful in). For example, Sorin's plus helps you on attack, defense and to break a board stall. Nissa's plus is good if you want to chump block or build up/sacrifice your tokens (all three situations are somewhat unlikely depending on the deck that you are playing).
My main qualm with Nissa is how long it takes to set up with her. It takes 3 turns to get 2 0/1s and a buff on all of your creatures. You could immediately minus, but it doesn't do a lot of good unless you have a lot of creatures.
Now, about Chandra. She is heavily costed, so only midrange and control decks can really cast her. Now, I may be wrong, but I think she is more suited to a control deck because her +1 works best on an empty board, the 0 is card advantage that works on an empty board so that the opponent can't kill Chandra, and the -X clears the board of little creatures.
Now, the problem is that red isn't a good control color this standard because other colors just do what red does better. However, with Scour from Existence, Outpost Siege and Chandra, most of red's problems as a control color disappear- a way to get card advantage, a generic removal card and a finisher. That said, some guy might brew a mono-red control and Chandra might show up.
January 10, 2016 5:37 a.m.
I disagree that red isn't a good control color right now. Fiery Impulse and Rending volley are absolute killers in Standart.
Grixis/Izzet/Rakdos maybe even Mardu control could see play I think and Chandra might find her place there.
January 10, 2016 6:31 a.m.
Kroto Fiery Impulse and Rending Volley are good cards. However, these do not warrant the inclusion of red in any control deck unless you are playing four colors. In comparison, other colors offer equally as good or better cards to choose from.
Problem is, in decks with more colors, they have better options than Chandra for a finisher.
January 10, 2016 9:45 a.m.
TheNextRedDude says... #28
Quadsimotto Yes, it will be and the two-headed Giant theme doesn't matter, since it can still be played 1v1.
January 10, 2016 9:52 a.m.
Nightdragon779 says... #29
Chandra, Flamecaller is extremely underwhelming. Compare to the other six mana planeswalkers:
Sorin Markov - can protect himself, can minus two immediately to end the game, and his ult is crazy. Sorin starts at good loyalty and gets a +2. Also,
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - amazing control card. Protects herself really well with 3 1/1s and she can wipe the board as soon as she comes down.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - he protects himself if you have a green creature in hand. If you do, he's crazy good. Imagine casting a Worldspine Wurm for 6! Even if he gets killed after, you already get value.
Chandra Ablaze - meh, it's another expensive Red planeswalker.
Now, Chandra, Flamecaller. Can't protect herself, she can wipe the board without killing herself, but that won't do much at turn 6. Her 0 is ok but it looks better for aggro than control.
January 10, 2016 9:59 a.m.
The other day I played against an ugin, who wiped my board and ghost fired me to earth while I tried to recover. The annoying thing is that Chandra could do the same thing if only she started at more loyalty. Dammit, we almost had a real good red walker.
January 10, 2016 11:13 a.m.
you guys are insane. Chandra is ridiculous, and this is coming from someone who's been testing with her since she was spoiled. Also, Red isn't a control color? Maybe not the control we know, but have you looked at jeskai black decks recently? I guess not. They're super grindy, and chandra fits right in.
Her + is the most burst you can get in the format right now, barring a fireball., and leaves behind a 5 loyalty walker. it ends the game in around 2 turns if left unchecked.
I dont think anyone is disputing about her 0, just insane
Her boardwipe is also very good. I don't use it often, because while playing WUBR they don't often have a board turn 6. The only way the opponent usually has creatures on 6 is if they have tokens or a bunch of small idiots, which chandra cleans up nicely.
Overall, Shes the perfect top end game finisher for jeskai controlling builds, like the one im playing. Its based around Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Chandra, Flamecaller:
January 10, 2016 12:45 p.m.
@ Nightdragon779 - Lets be honest here, Sorin Markov is only good in EDH. If he were brought into today's standard then he would be played in control decks and that's about it.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - Only as good as the sets he's brought in with. Notice our distinct lack of Elvish Mystic or Worldspine Wurm.
Elspeth is just Elspeth.
January 10, 2016 1:23 p.m.
same, gonna get a case I think :P.... at least a box
January 10, 2016 2:32 p.m.
AgentGreen says... #35
Tell me guys if this is a viable combo:
Eldrazi Displacer using it's ability on Wasteland Strangler, and triggering the -3/-3 every time
January 10, 2016 2:38 p.m.
AgentGreen, I would imagine you would run out of exiled cards to return to your opponents graveyard to pay for Wasteland Strangler's ability fairly quickly, but yes I do think Wasteland Strangler's enter the battlefield ability would trigger every time it came back to the battlefield from exile.
January 10, 2016 2:48 p.m.
I tried to build a U/B Eldrazi control deck. Let me know what you think.
Only the most grindy Eldrazi deck
Still got to make about 5 more decks.
January 10, 2016 2:52 p.m.
I don't think Eldrazi Displacer + Wasteland Strangler would work because Displacer requires the card to be brought back to the field from exile, not the graveyard which is where Strangler would place it.
January 10, 2016 2:55 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #39
I am not certain if this is the best place to mention this, but the ability on Bonds of Mortality, while very nice, is too powerful to cost only 1 mana. An ability that powerful should definitely have cost 2 or even 3 mana. Does anyone else agree with that?
January 10, 2016 3 p.m.
MurderHood says... #40
@DarkLaw, GearNoir: Eldrazi Displacer and Wasteland Strangler do combo very well. If they have a few cards in exile, then you could potentially pay 6 and give a creature -6/-6 which is really freakin good. I'm no rules expert but when Strangler's etb goes on the stack, could you exile a creature with the Displacer and then put that creature in a graveyard before its returned to the battlefield? If so that would be mega kickass.
January 10, 2016 3:09 p.m.
AgentGreen says... #41
MurderHood I don't think it can work that way
saj0219 True, but since it's ability only requires one card in exile; and with an eldrazi deck like mine with exile cards and ingest, it makes it feasible
January 10, 2016 3:28 p.m.
Darkmagi1131 says... #42
No because the Displacer's effect would fully resolve before the strangler's so the opponents creature would be returned before it could be processed.
January 10, 2016 3:29 p.m.
RedDiomedes says... #43
Bonds of mortality is a niche card though. Entire decks have no reason to fear it. Not one of my deck currently Has a hexproof or indestructible creature. Then it's 2 mana to play the card. Either in expectation of needing it later or on the turn you need it. The card can than be removed by your opponent. And costs another mana to activate. Hardly ridiculously overpowered.
January 10, 2016 3:29 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #44
Very good card against certain EDH decks though. Though that's likely been said already.
January 10, 2016 3:31 p.m.
bonds is a fantastic card. If you're playing 
made for multiplayer games you should run it with Venser, the Sojourner. Hell, you should run Venser already anyways.
It hoses..
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots
Darksteel Plate
Dragonlord Ojutai
Geist of Saint Traft
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Narset, Enlightened Master
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Thrun, the Last Troll
January 10, 2016 4:07 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #46
Bonds of Mortality does nicely wreck boggles in modern though.
January 10, 2016 4:15 p.m.
I don't think Bonds of Mortality works against cards like Lightning Greaves or Thrun, the Last Troll as shroud and creatures without hexproof/indestructable specifically stated fall in different categories?
January 10, 2016 4:17 p.m.
sadly it doesn't actually hit lightning greaves, but it is definitely a great card.
Edit: yeah, also thrall.
January 10, 2016 4:17 p.m. Edited.
Darkmagi1131 says... #49
Auctually Thrun's Oracle text has been updated to Hexproof. I believe all the old cards with that text have been.
January 10, 2016 4:29 p.m.
Yeah GearNoir you're right about Lightning Greaves but Darkmagi1131 was right about the change here.
Midexin says... #1
Opinions on Visions of Brutality against Aggro decks on the play? And why are some of the cards in the database, but not others? -_-
January 9, 2016 11:39 a.m.