Opinions on Brawl
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 23, 2018, 11:03 a.m. by GhostChieftain
For those of you that haven't seen, here is the link to the article.
I feel as though it is a neat idea, however far too niche to actually work. I strictly play edh, and this seems to be edh lite like tiny leaders. But unlike tiny leaders, I do not have the cards to make a deck for this because I don't play standard and most of the cards I would have to get to play this would be literal garbage to me after they would rotate. So I think this caters strictly toward standard players who also play edh or would like to get started playing edh. What are your opinions?
I played some brawl this weekend - we have gameday on Sunday and it is standard, not brawl, but on Saturday I played several games of Tezzeret versus Nicol Bolas and they were wholesome. I enjoyed the format a lot, yet to test in multiplayer.
April 7, 2018 6:07 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #3
This is definitely an interesting idea, but I do not expect it to gain any serious traction, and it certainly will not replace proper EDH at any time, soon.
Why does WotC seem to have such a fondness for rotating formats? I severely dislike needing to constantly purchase new cards, so I avoid rotating formats whenever possible.
April 13, 2018 5:07 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #4
DemonDragonJ if it wasn't for rotating formats WotC would have gone broke years ago ;)
April 13, 2018 7:48 p.m.
Not gonna make the same mistake with Brawl as I did for Frontier. I bought a Frontier deck the week before the format died so I wasn't able to play it. If Brawl actually does stick around maybe I'll get into it.
April 13, 2018 8:48 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #6
Rabid_Wombat, you do not really believe that, do you? Surely, WotC makes sufficient money from eternal formats, and from its other games, to remain in business?
April 14, 2018 8:27 a.m.
Since Brawl is a casual format I think Frontier Brawl is a better version.
Same rules as Brawl, but using the Frontier card pool.
The pool is any card from M15 onwards, with no ban list.
The reason why this works is:
No rotation.
Not as expensive as Frontier since it is a singleton format.
No really "broken" combos like Felidar Sovereign + Saheeli Rai, due to singleton format.
My friends have been playing this format and it has worked for us.
People on the Facebook Frontier group have been reporting success with this format.
April 14, 2018 10:55 a.m. Edited.
TheKing8426 says... #8
User:DemonDragonJ I think that Magic would have been done with if there was no Standard. WotC's Magic side makes no money off of eternal formats because they see no profit from third party sales. They make money from stores buying boxes and from hosting events (which I would imagine is a ton less than boxes). So if there is no Standard, and interest is not garnered in a new set, then WotC is only making money from Magic once or twice a year (Masters Set release, and Commander release), as opposed to ~6 times/year; this would lead to a reduction of production in MTG, which leads to shittier sets that people don't buy, etc; it's a downward spiral. I think that DnD keeps WotC going a lot more than people think, but Magic would likely have been done away with if people weren't driving demand for boosters/boxes, and instead driving demand for eternal singles exclusively.
April 14, 2018 7:51 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #9
DemonDragonJ in response to your question TheKing8426 is dead on point with his reply. The problem is the WotC is now a BIG company...and they have to maintain a high turnover of product in order to stay afloat.
This is the real reason Brawl was invented...in the misguided, desperate hope that people would abandon EDH and switch to a rotating alternative that brought in regular money for the company.
I own around ten EDH decks and have not bought a booster pack in years ;)
April 14, 2018 10:41 p.m.
@Rabid_Wombat, It sounds like the easy way to get people to buy more boosters isn't to make a new rotating format, but probably just to include new masterpiece cards for every set. Sadly too many people complained about it.
I think if they want to sell brawl they should seperate it from Standard but still make it a rotating format. Then for every Brawl product you ramp the power level to 11. Basically it could also be used to print new legacy viable and EDH viable cards while also selling a more intense and thrilling format to players. They can't do this with Standard, because they care a whole lot about balance. I think an over-powered and potentially hard to balance rotating format might be more successful, and if it fails epically Wizards won't be in jepardy, because they still have Standard to rely heavily on and it won't taint Modern at all either.
I hear card games like yugioh suffer from constantly increasing the power level of their cards to keep players hooked. It might work with Magic though, because players can have a choice between a serious balanced standard format, or a run-away power creep format that won't hinder the other formats you can play in. And since they're both rotating formats players will always want to buy new packs since it will cater to new-comers and veterans alike. To me Wizards needs the veteran players buying packs that rotate out of formats, and I think that is the way they'd have to do it in order to ensure sales.
April 15, 2018 12:19 a.m.
There are a couple problems with what you suggested:
I was a big fan of the masterpiece concept, but I can see why it was cut. These cards were devastating in a Limited, generally being more powerful than the rest of the cards in the set. This gave anyone who pulled a masterpiece card a huge advantage.
Masterpiece cards alone will not sell booster packs. They are too uncommon to justify bulk buys--they served more of an added bonus than a justification for buying booster boxes. To make them more common would only exacerbate the issue raised in point 1.
Keeping Brawl consistent with Standard has advantages. First, it makes it easy for a player to swap between the two, encouraging individuals to try different formats. Second, it gives new players, who are generally introduced to Magic through purchasing booster packs, a use for their junk cards. Three, it keeps the information players need to remember (what is legal where) nice and consistent, preventing confusion. Etc.
There's a reason other card games rely on constant power creep to sell more cards--the trading card market is, and always has been, dominated by Magic. Yugioh and others have a smaller fanbase, and cannot afford to not target their entire demographic with new sets. Magic, on the other hand, is happily sitting on top.
Why does Magic dominate the market? Its large size, history, and complex rules are the obvious answers, but, equally importantly, Wizards' knows exactly what their players want. Players do not want two unstable formats, which is exactly what a power creep would create (Modern constantly being upset by new sets; standard always being upset by new sets and rotations). Would it help sell new cards? Perhaps, but at the cost of the stability that has allowed Magic to corner the market. Wizards is playing the long game--they don't need to desperately appeal to their entire fanbase with every single set.
April 15, 2018 12:46 a.m.
TheKing8426 says... #12
Just to keep going off cdkime's comments on Masterpieces (which I agree with), it also comes down to the fact that if it is included in every set, every set becomes a "Masters" set. And the problem with Masters sets all the time is that you can only reprint so many cards so many times. Eventually you run out of cards or you reprint the same few too much and they become less chase-able, if that makes sense.
April 15, 2018 12:57 a.m.
I've played about 8-10 or so matches on MTGO with a not very good deck (I threw it together with cards I had so I didn't expect it to be good or tuned at all). I have LOVED the format. I feel that is largely the case because a competitive scene has not yet developed and no one has 'broken' the format at this point. That said, Standard is such a lower power level than the card pool of traditional EDH that I am not sure this will happen. I certainly think the cream will rise to the top and the 'best decks' will emerge, but in my limited experience I have not played against the same commander once. I have seen, Baral, Kumena, Vona, Locust God, Scarab God(running into this only once has been a surprise) and Gonti to name a few.
I also find the deckbuilding to be fun with a limited card pool and it also lets you play some of those bulk rares that look really cool but are 'standard' playable in most cases. The 60 card 1 game format makes it interesting because you need to squeeze in a wide variety of answers into a small space. I have enjoyed it enough to start to consider ways to tune my deck. I hope it sticks around as it's a cool format and has most importantly, been fun
April 19, 2018 4:52 p.m.
As someone who plays Modern and EDH, I like the idea of Brawl, but I personally wouldn't get into it. In my opinion, it does feel like EDH for standard players, and more money for WOTC (Not a problem, but clearly a point to be made. But I'd say it gets broken down like this:
Positives:
-Cheaper(ish): As someone who builds budget EDH all the time, I can't say this won't necessarily be as expensive to make a deck as normal EDH would. However, the card pool allows players to make more competitive decks without throwing the thousands sometimes put into EDH decks; allowing for competitive play at a lower price.
-Mechanics: As others have said, Brawl will allow people to brew with mechanics and interactions that aren't as easy to use in normal EDH. (such as energy, revolt, etc.)
-Gameplay: Being 1-1 and 30 life, you can build more aggressive strategies rather than having to play more well known archetypes that are good for commander. (Variety is the spice of life)
-Bridge from Standard: People can use their standard cards in other decks, and have fun with them. Given that they are only legal for so long, I think it's fine to let people enjoy what they purchased.
-Bridge to EDH: It gives people the opportunity to try out something that could be compared with EDH, and let them see if they'd like to move to that format.
Negatives:
-Your cards rotate out: At least for me, I really don't like getting cards that are big at purchase and then are illegal later, and won't compare to things in Modern/EDH. But if you play standard, you knew this from the start.
-Since the card pool is limited, certain strategies may make the format solved and make it hard to brew (uncertain, but possible)
-Standard prices go up: If people are buying cards for standard that are also good in Brawl, they will spike in price.
In all, I'd wait to see what happens with it before getting in.
April 23, 2018 6:46 p.m.
The format has pretty much been solved, if you ask me.
If you have played anyone who uses The Scarab God as their Brawler, you will know what I mean.
Sargeras your note on gameplay being 1 vs 1 doesn't necessarily hold weight as the format is supposed to have a multiplayer component.
April 24, 2018 11:47 a.m.
Perhaps not, but I think the rest of the points are pretty correct. Since I'm not going into the format anyway I'll let people decide what they want to do.
April 24, 2018 3:01 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #17
The multiplayer component is soooo boring, games take forever :/
Brawl is 1 vs 1 as far as we are concerned...besides, finding more than one other person who actually plays the format is challenging enough as it is!
April 24, 2018 7:44 p.m.
"When Brawl dies, I hope it kills the Commander format, too." doubtful. Commander is one of the most popular formats, besides why do you have such a problem with commander?
April 26, 2018 6:43 p.m.
"Since you have to have a legendary creature or planeswalker as your commander, that means there are, at most, about 73 different possible Brawl decks that you could make. Then, you also have the color restrictions, so some color combinations might not possible every standard." - besides the commander, there are 59 other cards.
If you go for mono green, different combinations of 59 out of 260 green cards in standard will yield 174225887767995022080552899461159016674018505026611041347200 different decks.
April 27, 2018 3:02 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #20
And the problems you stated do not apply in the least bit to commander. There are commanders for literally every color combination, and can use almost any card ever printed. You can feel free to hate on commander all you want, but you can't deny that it is a good format just based on the amount of people that continue to play it.
April 27, 2018 11:29 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #21
If you are hesitant to invest in a deck due to waiting to see if the Brawl format survives I strongly recommend that you put together a Gishath, Sun's Avatar Brawl deck as for just an extra 20 bucks it can be expanded into a competitive EDH deck ;)
April 28, 2018 4:21 a.m.
Or any kind of Historic matters deck as youll want most of the same support cards upon upgrade to EDH. Jhoira or Raff are really good Commanders for this
April 28, 2018 1:05 p.m.
Funkydiscogod, yes, it is quite possible you can just slap the top 35 cards in your colors into the deck and call it a day, or say, put every single pirate in Admiral Beckett Brass and call it a day; but that is true for every format. I could choose any commander, go to EDHREC and pick the 65 most played cards in it and call it a day. I would be remiss if I weren't playing 4 Lightning Bolts!, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Monastery Swiftspear, etc. in my competitive Modern Burn deck.
What you describe is a valid deckbuilding approach for any format. Thus, it should not count against Brawl. Additionally, being a rotating format means that this is actually less pronounced here than in non-rotating formats.
Additionally, if I made a mono green right now, say Marwyn, the Nurturer, I probably would not include Sorcerous Spyglass or Blossoming Defense. The unique thing about brawl in paper is that it is both a 2 player and multiplayer format and those two cards have no place in a multiplayer format. Just because you consider something a staple, does not mean it is.
For example, on edhrec, Ghalta decks, which is the most popular mono green commander, use Spyglass 21% of the time, which is hardly a staple. Depending on how artifact heavy you make the deck, it is quite possible to not include Spyglass. Same for Verdurous Gearhulk - it is the 7th creature on the list behind things like Druid of the Cowl. Lists are pre-Dominaria, otherwise things like Steel Leaf Champion and Llanowar Elves would the gearhulk even further back. The only card you did hit with as a top card is Blossoming Defense.
I am not saying this is entirely scientific, but it is the only big, easily comparable database I could find.
April 29, 2018 1:55 a.m.
Remathilis says... #24
Funkydiscogod says... "When Brawl dies, I hope it kills the Commander format, too."
Because if you're not playing Modern JUND 2018, you're not really playing Magic...
April 29, 2018 4:25 p.m.
Yes you can, you just have to change your Commander. Instead of Squee the Immortal, you go Firesong and Sunspeaker, or Zacama, Primal Calamity.
April 29, 2018 10:42 p.m.
Funkydiscogod - in these troubled times, remember the words of our savior Maro - "Restrictions breed creativity". A Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh deck can be built as a control deck with all the counterspells, removal, board wipes and 6-7 mana bombs, but Bolas can just as easily lead a pirate crew of tempo-generating pirates or a combo deck that aims to kill the whole table or a midrange deck that does all those things.
You make the mistake of equating the commander with the deck.
April 30, 2018 3:51 a.m.
OneItsStarted says... #30
Welp, that was a rather poor start to Brawl. They banned Baral in Commander 1v1, why did they think it wouldn't be a problem in Brawl?
April 30, 2018 9:34 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #31
Came here to see folks opinions on brawl and stayed to enjoy the rather ridiculous discussion going on:
Jokes aside, I like the spirit of the format as I see it as a way for new players to experience an EDH like structure and I like the idea that anyone can acquire most of the cards needed to build a deck from 1 or 2 pre-releases. However, I'll probably stick to commander because rotation sucks (likely the biggest obstacle facing Brawl) and the EDH card pool is so vast I can build literally whatever jank I want.
May 1, 2018 11:10 a.m.
I like the format but I think Spyglass is an obvious ban. Just a mean spirited hoser card that feels contrary to the spirit of the format.
May 1, 2018 5:42 p.m.
TheKing8426 says... #33
I mean, you could just play more artifact removal. Spyglass is not busted whatsoever.
May 1, 2018 6:57 p.m.
By Force is a powerful card in Brawl multiplayer. Between Kaladesh block and powerful flip artifacts of Ixalan and monuments from Amonkhet and historic things from Dominaria, it does a heck of a lot of work.
May 2, 2018 3:21 a.m.
I think maybe a Brawl Firesong and Sunspeaker deck should stand out at the top, running the best standard boardwipes, removal, and top creatures such as Rekindling Phoenix, Glorybringer and Etali, Primal Storm
May 2, 2018 10:46 a.m.
@ TheKing8426 Not busted, just cheap and anti-gameplay. There are plenty of ways to build counter strategies, without going after the thing that defines the format.
Playing artifact removal doesn't really cut it, and it's pretty warping to force all decks to spend card slots on it. If your commander is uncastable for multiple turns you're well below 50% winrate at that point.
I think a singleton 60 card format needs to consider bans like this. Singular cards show up too often in 59 card decks (roughly 50% of best-of-3 matches, given a reasonable number of turns).
May 2, 2018 2:42 p.m. Edited.
TheKing8426 says... #38
somsoc While I understand what you're saying about it showing up "too often" in 60 card singleton (which I will assume is in comparison to EDH), I don't see much difference between playing 1 card of this effect in Brawl and 2 cards of this effect in EDH (Spyglass & Pithing Needle).
I wouldn't consider playing artifact removal forcing "all decks to spend card slots on it," simply because there are so many good artifacts in Standard at the moment, and you should already be spending card slots on it.
Also, I think that if your deck is too reliant on your commander, it makes for a bad deck. Sure, in Brawl it's different than EDH, but I think saying that not casting your commander leads to a lower winrate inherently is misleading. Even if we're talking about Tier 1 Brawl (which I will represent as Ghalta & Baral, based on MTGO Brawl Competitive Leagues), T1 Stompy can just stompy you out of the game without Ghalta. Ghalta helps, absolutely, but if you don't have anything to stop their board as is, they don't inherently need to cast it. Same with Baral; if you've dealt with Baral once, but they have a full grip and 9 untapped islands, I don't think you're winning that game, even with Baral off board.
I believe that Spyglass is an auto-include in most every deck. It deals with a lot, and that is what we should be looking for in cards: broad answers, not niche ones. Even in playing removal, you should be looking at broad answers: Abrade, Creeping Mold, Cast Out, Vraska's Contempt, Disallow. All of these do more than 1 thing, and there's 1 for every colour. I think that is the key to any singleton format. Or any format. Playing broadly allows for more options. More cards that fit multiple slots. So I don't think there's anything wrong with Spyglass at all. I hope that all makes sense and doesn't come off as douche-y lol
May 2, 2018 3:34 p.m.
You make good arguments, but they are pretty focused on the spikey competitive end of things. That's not the be-all-end-all. Brawl is also a creative singleton format where you can play off beat cards, and lean heavily on your commander.
I'm completely happy playing against these tuned 'tier' decks, but I expect to play commander vs commander games of Magic. That's the least I ask. I'll design my deck so that it can deal with some powerful legend coming down every game, but I don't go into it trying to hose the focal point of my opponents deck. Removal already exists aplenty. That's the appropriate way to deal with a commander - remove it and raise the cost of replaying it.
Basically it's the classic commander problem writ large, caters for competitive and creative players alike, but not usually at the same. I feel like Spyglass crosses the line in terms of preventing one group of players having fun, the upside of banning it is high and the downside is basically non existent.
May 2, 2018 5:52 p.m. Edited.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #40
I honestly don't understand the fear of Sorcerous Spyglass. a) Any deck worth its salt should be packing artifact removal and b) Brawl is a multiplayer format. Those type of effects are greatly muted when there are 2 other players at the table. Maybe things are different in a 60 card format vs. EDH's 100 card format, but those effects are often not worth a card slot.
May 2, 2018 7:21 p.m.
TheKing8426 says... #41
somsoc While I agree I did use arguments for Top Tier Brawl, most of my post was about just everyday brewed decks. Every deck should play removal. Every deck should play broad answers. Every deck should be able to function without their commander. That's just the most interactive way to play the game, which, in my opinion, offers the most fun way to play. Spyglass does make the game uninteractive if your commander A) has activated abilities or B) is a planeswalker, but the interactive part of Spyglass in the meta is A) removal, like Cast Out, or By Force, or [insert removal spell here] or B) the other 2 players, in the ideal 4 player Brawl game.
I disagree in that there is an appropriate way of playing removal. Here's a thought: If Nevermore was legal in Brawl (for whatever reason), would you not play it? Because I certainly would. And most people would, I think; either to clog a wincon or, like with Spyglass, to stop the commander. So the easiest way to stop that card from being (as) relevant in your matchup is to either A) have your deck be able to function apart from your commander and/or B) play removal.
I don't think Spyglass inherently reduces fun (if your deck can deal with it, and, of course, it should be able to deal with artifacts), but it does ask to be played around/into, which is fine to me - so do counterspells.
Lastly, and I guess anyone can feel free to respond to this: Do you think there will be cards banned in Brawl exclusively? Do you think that if they do make bans for Brawl, they will be banned in Standard to? Or will they let the format run its course? I personally think they won't ban anything because of Brawl, but I'm interested in hearing the takes of others.
May 2, 2018 9:22 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #42
I think that for now they want to give Brawl a cruisey, "let's just have fun" vibe so no banhammer being a downer in the near-future...even if some cards (I'm looking at you Baral) are too degenerate for the format.
May 2, 2018 9:30 p.m.
Tadsummers says... #43
Brawl is a great format. I'm not too snobby to realize that, in order for the game to continue on, there needs to be new people introduced to the game. I've only been playing for about 2 years and, in that time, I've met many people who turn their noses up at Standard. These are the same people who boast about their thousand-dollar EDH decks. Like those of us who play Standard are peasants who can never be "real" players because we didn't start in the '90s. Great players are great players, regardless of the format. The most I hear is people (who admit they don't buy much product) grumbling about this "cash grab" as if they should be able to play for free forever. Sad.
May 3, 2018 1:38 p.m.
In my play group we've talked about doing block constructed brawl or what was in standard at the time of the general you chose. Which opens up more possibilities and doesn't have to be expensive.
May 4, 2018 1:53 p.m.
That's a cool idea, though deck checking sounds a little difficult (unless you stick strictly to only that block?).
And yeah.. old blocks will be nice and cheap by now, especially online.
May 4, 2018 3:45 p.m. Edited.
If you are into that, I saw someone else on these forums who had a pretty cool brawl Idea--"Chaos Brawl." Each person was randomly assigned 5 sets from Magic's history, and had to build a brawl deck using only those sets.
I thought that was a pretty neat idea, and it led to some interesting deckbuilding.
May 4, 2018 3:50 p.m. Edited.
@somsoc @cdkime the Timeline of MTG Standard shows what sets were in standard at what times along with the banned cards. So we were gonna use this as a reference and can settle any disputes as to card legalities.
May 4, 2018 4:11 p.m.
I have a hard time getting past the rotation. Back during SOI standard I put together my favorite deck, bar none, that I have ever played, a Grixis Fevered Visions deck. I played the hell out of that deck for months. When the format rotated, I lost 98% of those cards. The idea of being forced to remake a Brawl deck when whatever rotates out leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This didn't stop me from throwing together a Grand Warlord Radha deck which I've had some fun with, but I doubt I'll stick with the format long-term.
May 5, 2018 3:31 p.m.
Cards are in standard for two years, and the rotation time is announced before the set releases. That's enough time to play and/or sell the cards (sometimes multiple times over).
If it bothers you that much, just play only with cards the latest set. Dominaria for example will be in standard for a long time. If you keep a list of anything more expensive then you can make sure to sell them off for what you paid, or profit.
Sir_Garde says... #1
Not a long time player. I played on and off for a couple years and recently got into MTG again but i personally like the idea of brawl, though I could see it being better if it were a modern format rather than standard.
April 7, 2018 5:35 a.m.