Possibility of a new eternal format?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Sept. 11, 2015, 3:49 p.m. by FAMOUSWATERMELON
Completely out of the blue, what are the chances of Wizards creating a new eternal non-rotating format (like Modern but with more recent cards), and when would they do it?
Servo_Token says... #3
It would need to count cards that are coming out roughly around this time, so we wouldn't see it for another few years.
September 11, 2015 3:56 p.m.
Which older modern cards don't you like being in the format enough to justify creating another one? What kind of benefit would this bring to magic as a whole?
September 11, 2015 3:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
Modern is not an eternal format. Eternal means the format includes all black or white border cards ever printed (banlists notwithstanding).
September 11, 2015 4 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #6
HavokX I assume for more or less the same reasons that Modern was created, namely that Legacy was becoming too restrictive (price-wise) for newer players (I think?).
Scratch that Epoch then. What would you call it?
September 11, 2015 4 p.m. Edited.
RedDiomedes says... #8
Yes exactly.
Being able to go back to old favourite cards would be great for lots of players and yet at the same time not require as big an investment in cash that modern currently does.
September 11, 2015 4:03 p.m.
I personally don't really see this happening, at least not anywhere in the foreseeable future. The reason modern came to be has a lot to do with the players wanting to play non-rotating formats but the cost of legacy was continuing upwards with no good options to reprint cards due to the reserved list. Modern doesn't have that problem because they can reprint things as much as they like
September 11, 2015 4:12 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #10
So I don't like the "modern isn't an eternal format" bit, because even though it may be technically correct, it doesn't make sense to have modern be the only non-rotating, non-eternal format.
Like, "Hey, I've heard talk about eternal formats. What is an eternal format as opposed to standard?" "Well, that would be one of the other formats: Vintage, Legacy, and EDH." "Are those my only options if I want to play an eternal (In my mind, non-standard) format?" "Yup. Best of luck getting your dual lands, kid."
While you as someone who knows about Modern as a non-eternal format can tell the difference, someone who is new will see the phrase "eternal" thrown around as much as it is and still be blissfully unaware of modern as an option for some amount of time, which may be a huge turn off from the game if they think that they have to jump from standard to legacy.
So I'd say here that, for the sake of being open to everyone in the game and eliminating the elitism that comes with the word, Non-Rotating = Eternal when it comes to the played and supported formats. There are non-eternal formats - Draft, sealed, and standard. There are eternal formats - Modern, legacy, vintage, pauper, EDH. Why create a third category (Non-rotating, non-eternal) when it only creates confusion?
Option two: Ditch the definition of Eternal as it is now and just call everything a "Non-rotating format" because really, why even bother with having "eternal" as a thing.
September 11, 2015 4:17 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Because eternal defines formats that are allowed to use cards like True-Name Nemesis, which have only been printed in secondary products. Non-rotating is simply a descriptor of how often cards expire in the format (i.e., never). So, before you go off on charges of elitism, you should probably acknowledge the function of the terms in describing differences that you'd otherwise need to spell out every time.
And I'm not impressed by your anecdote. Technical terms do not require you to completely ignore contextual meanings when dealing with other people. If someone obviously wants to know about non-Standard formats, then it doesn't necessarily matter whether they know the correct usage of eternal.
September 11, 2015 5 p.m.
I don't see it happening, personally. While it might be tempting to try to create something for people who want a non-rotating format but are kept out by the prices of modern, it would be a medium-term solution at best and would ultimately exacerbate the problem. If WotC can't keep the prices of modern under control with reprints, creating another format with it's own slew of staples that people want reprinted will just make the problem worse. Plus, it creates an extra barrier to reprinting modern staples in new sets because it would also introduce them into this hypothetical format.
September 11, 2015 5:05 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #13
I agree with ThatJunkMage entirely.
I have always called Modern an "eternal format" because any card previously legal in Modern will continue remain legal unless banned. Thus, the cards in Modern are "eternal" because they will always be legal in Modern.
September 11, 2015 5:07 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #14
Cards in supplemental products don't have to define what is and isn't eternal. Yes, TNN may not be legal in Modern, but that shouldn't prevent Modern from being considered an "eternal" format by nature.
That is, the additional cards (like TNN and Containment Priest) define what is Legacy legal, Vintage legal, etc. -- being "eternal" doesn't have to be synonymous with this.
If it makes more sense to a majority of players that eternal means "non-rotating", then I prefer that definition.
September 11, 2015 5:22 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #15
I don't get why people think this new format would suddenly be cheaper. Once WotC makes the format and has tournaments featuring it, the best decks emerge, and the cards in those decks shoot up in price.
Modern isn't even that expensive to begin with.
September 11, 2015 5:28 p.m.
There absolutely will be another non rotating format made but not for many years. It will be at the point at which the game develops to an extent in which it's necessary to cut out older cards and modern becomes as inaccessible as legacy/vintage is now.
September 11, 2015 5:29 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #17
Yeah, I can definitely see moderner becoming a thing in 3-5 years. M15 and onwards (ie the newest card frame).
Also, there are other non-rotating, non-eternal formats. The various block-constructed formats are non-eternal, but also don't rotate. Nothing will ever rotate out of Theros Block Constructed, for example. ;)
September 11, 2015 5:34 p.m.
It'll look something like this, in around the year 2020:
Legacy: Grand-daddy of high level competitive magic, this format features all cards ever printed in magic (with the exception of an extensive banlist).
Vintage: Lol, you think you have the $100,000 for a playset of Black Lotus? Good luck.
Modern: One of magics now most popular formats, this aggressive creature-based format is perfect for moderate-competitive players boasting deck prices of about half that of Legacy, on average.
Standard: Same old shit as always, last 2-3 blocks are legal and playing costs a ton over a few years due to the deflation of cards as they leave the format.
AND INTRODUCING: Post-modern! Everything from (Zendikar block? Scars block? Innistrad Block?) to present. Basically a little brother of Modern, good for players who want to branch out into a new, easy to access format.
September 11, 2015 5:41 p.m.
Oh yeah. It makes more sense that M15 would be the start of that constructed format. I prefer the name "post-modern" though.
September 11, 2015 5:43 p.m.
@vishnarg: The question becomes whether the post-modern format is real or not. We may think the format is real, when in reality, we are simply playing with the shadows of the format and unaware of the greater format around us.
In all seriousness, I think with WotC's ability to reprint cards for Modern will limit there being a non-rotating format to come after it.
Two formats I'd like to see is a Legacy format where cards on the Reserved List are banned (which is still kind of shitty. Cards should be based on power level, not price) and a resurrection of Extended. I think after a few more years, Extended is quite possible. That's especially true if it were the past 5 or 6 years, instead of 4 (like the previous version).
September 11, 2015 6:16 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #21
The age of cards in a format does not determine whether it is more competitive lol... Competitiveness is determined by the quality of the competitors and frequency of competition.
September 11, 2015 6:21 p.m. Edited.
I shudder to think of what abzan resto tusk would be in extended...
September 11, 2015 6:22 p.m.
@HerderOfNerf: But we'd also have a really powerful U/W/x deck and a sick Mono-Black Zombie Devotion with Geralf's Messenger, Mutavault, and Gravecrawler. And then Dragons with Thundermaw Hellkite?
That format sounds fucking awesome lol.
September 11, 2015 6:26 p.m.
Mono black devotion and sphinx control with Dragonlord Ojutai sound crazy fun. But the ever present rhino would still be the format police i think.
September 11, 2015 6:28 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #25
"Vintage: Lol, you think you have the $100,000 for a playset of Black Lotus? Good luck."
Just posting to make sure everyone sees how stupid this statement is on multiple levels.
September 11, 2015 6:29 p.m.
@TurboFagoot: Let's just pretend that comment doesn't exist.
September 11, 2015 6:40 p.m.
TurboFagoot, Alright well outside of the fact that Black Lotus is reserved (yeah, I goofed), I don't see what the big issue with that statement is. It was simply a jest at the ridiculousness of paper Vintage costs, the reserved list, and how any copy of Lotus could legitimately double in price in the next 5-10 years. Can you enlighten me on why you think this comment is "stupid"?
September 11, 2015 7:59 p.m. Edited.
Didgeridooda says... #28
I made a post on this a long time ago. I got hated on pretty heavily then. I still think they are setting up for that exact thing, but I am happy that you are not being insulted here.
September 11, 2015 8:12 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
The time you asked might have had something to do with it. It's often the case that one change in the game, such as Modern coming into existence, prompts people to speculate madly about when the next such change must occur, and these questions usually suffer from (1) a presupposition that the change must be repeated and (2) proximity to the first change making it seem like gun jumping.
Not saying that's what you did, but I think that might explain part of the response.
September 11, 2015 8:16 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #30
Because the cost of vintage isn't as high as you're implying. Many people borrow power, or play in proxy tournaments. Which, by the way, vastly outnumber their non-proxy counterparts. Or they play on Modo, where Vintage is much cheaper.
Not to mention, even in non-proxy tournaments, there's often prizes for people placing the highest with non-power decks, incentivizing people without power to play. A friend of mine top 32'd vintage champs this year without power in his deck.
People love to talk down vintage while have no idea of what actually goes on.
September 11, 2015 9:47 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #31
I wish I could play vintage. I don't think I am talking down on it to say it is out of my price range. Just more of the pinnacle format of the game.
September 11, 2015 10:06 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #32
I don't like the idea of making modern "legacy 2".
September 11, 2015 11:14 p.m.
All I was saying is that Vintage has extreme price implications, even using proxies. I know how Vintage works and I don't need some pompous loser to tell me about how smart they are.
September 11, 2015 11:21 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #34
"Extreme" isn't really the right word. It's actually very cheap (Relative to Magic formats) to do well in proxy tournaments and win towards a deck.
But if knowledge on the subject makes me a loser I'll take it.
September 12, 2015 8:28 a.m.
IsaacOsmundson91 says... #35
People have been talking about Magic Orgins and beyond.
September 12, 2015 5:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #36
I highly doubt that there shall be another non-rotating format, as there are already three such formats in existence (or four, if one includes commander/EDH), which should be more than sufficient for all players.
Instead of creating another new format, I believe that WotC should give greater support to the existing formats; they obviously support standard, but also have been doing an excellent job of supporting modern, as well, in my mind. However, I really wish that they would do more to support legacy and vintage, since those formats can be terribly expensive, which makes it difficult for any player who has not been playing this game for a long time to enter them.
The fact that WotC made the online-only Vintage Masters set means that they have not forgotten about the eternal formats, and, given the popularity of Modern Masters, I would very much like to see a physical Vintage Masters or Legacy Masters product (that would obviously exclude cards on the reserved list), since I am very certain that such a product would sell very well, indeed.
September 12, 2015 7:13 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #37
Nicely said, more products and support not more formats.
September 12, 2015 9:10 p.m.
But the modern masters boosters are sooooooooooooooo expensive. I dont know how expensive they are in the US but here in Austria its extrem.
September 13, 2015 4:52 a.m.
@DemonDragonJ Without the cards on the reserved list, 'Vintage Masters' would be a giant pile of unsuccessful garbage. And probably 50 or 80 dollars a pack even with only garbage in it.
September 13, 2015 9:19 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #40
Devonin, why do you believe that? Can you name any staples of vintage and legacy formats that are on the reserved list? What about staples that are not on the reserved list?
September 13, 2015 9:25 p.m.
55 cards in the online-only Vintage Masters set are on the Reserved List. Glancing over the whole reserved list, there are at least another 30 or 40 that would be/are Vintage relevant offline, which are also reserved from being reprinted.
The 55-100ish cards on the reserved list which are Vintage relevant are also basically the top I would estimate 90% of the monetary worth of "1 of every vintage relevant card"
September 13, 2015 9:38 p.m.
So I glanced over the reserved list and ended up pulling out around 50ish cards that were clearly in my head as "These are cards that would need to be in "Eternal Masters" to be to Vintage/Legacy what cards in Modern Masters are to Modern. There's a good chunk of overlap between the cards that actually went into the MTGO "Vintage Masters" set, but that set also had a bunch of cards that aren't in this list:
Ancestral Recall, Badlands, Bayou, Black Lotus, Fastbond, Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Plateau, Savannah, Scrubland. Taiga, Time Vault, Time Walk, Timetwister, Tropical Island, Tundra, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, Wheel of Fortune, Library of Alexandria, Candelabra of Tawnos, Mishra's Workshop, The Abyss, Moat, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Lion's Eye Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Lotus Vale, Null Rod, Aluren, Dream Halls, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, Survival of the Fittest, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, Tolarian Academy, Time Spiral, Yawgmoth's Will, Grim Monolith, Memory Jar, Academy Rector, Donate, Metalworker, Yawgmoth's Bargain
September 13, 2015 9:49 p.m.
Lord_Khaine says... #43
Sounds vaguely familiar to the Extended format; something Wizards removed for the reason of too many formats not being too good for the fanbase. I doubt we're going to see a new format any time soon.
September 17, 2015 11:16 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #44
I was under the impression that Extended was replaced because it wasn't diverse enough. It was basically Standard 2.0 refeaturing the best Standard decks that were no longer legal in Standard. Modern offered more diversity.
September 17, 2015 11:25 a.m.
Yeah I think it was because extended ended up being the best of standard just with a bit more stuff.
September 17, 2015 11:30 a.m.
What happened was the DCI took forever and a day to ban Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic. They didn't ban either until Modern had already been announced to give you a sense of how late they were in trying to salvage the format. It was nothing but Cawblade mirrors all day, every day.
Prior to that, U/B Fae was dominating the format with its Bitterblossoms, Thoughtseizes, and Mutavaults. The DCI took no steps at fixing the meta or nerfing Faeries. Again, this lead to nothing but mirror matches all day long.
In other words, by the time Faeries would have rotated out to alleviate balance issues in Extended, Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Stoneforge Mystic had already rotated in and taken over the meta. The format had become stagnant from 2008 forward.
I know I was sad to see it go, since it's always been one of my favorite formats. Not quite the power level of Legacy where cards like Loxodon Hierarch are effectively unplayable, but diverse enough we would see 6+ completely different decks in the top 8 of every major event. The card pool was also large enough to play whatever wacky deck you could come up with. CounterTop with 'Goyf? Dredge-a-Tog? Eggs? RDW? Elves? Yup...they're all here.
Sadly, the DCI stopped caring and let the format die :(
RedDiomedes says... #2
I could get behind this idea!
September 11, 2015 3:52 p.m.