Product Changes
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on May 16, 2016, 1:32 p.m. by GoldGhost012
So there are going to be a couple changes in regards to product when Kaladesh hits the market. There's a source article, but I'll tl;dr a bit.
Intro Decks are gone. Poof. Their replacement will be the new Planeswalker Deck.
There will be 2 Planeswalker Decks per set (which also implies there will be at least 2 Planeswalkers in every set!). The decks will be 60-card preconstructed with 2 booster packs for an MSRP of $14.99. They will be (usually) dual-colored Standard-legal decks tied mechanically to the block. Though there will be 5 cards that weren't in the block, they will be considered Standard-legal. In addition, the deck will contain:
- One Planeswalker, relevant to the block, at mythic rarity
- A rare, 2 copies, that do something and tutors the Planeswalker
- An uncommon, 3 copies, that are better when the Planeswalker is on the battlefield
- A common, 4 copies, tied thematically to the Planeswalker
- A common dual land, 4 copies, of the Oath of the Gatewatch/Shadows over Innistrad ETB tapped land (they want to keep these in Standard from now on)
- Only the 14 cards above will have new art, the rest will have the standard art from the block
Then, Fat Packs are getting changed as well. Their name will be changed to [Block name] Bundle, their MSRP will be $42.99 (previously $39.99), and there will be an addition tenth booster pack. The article doesn't say if there will be deck boxes like there have been in the past.
I love mucking around with Intro packs.
These new decks sound kind of fun.
May 17, 2016 5:46 p.m.
I just wish they weren't forcing all of the cards to be in standard. like if they are mostly then great if you need to take like 5-20 cards out before you go to FNM then so be it. These decks are guaranteed to never preform well at a constructed tournament imo, so you may as well not design them with that as an expectation. jamming some niche cards into a new set seems a little forced and poorly thought out.
This product is a great way to get new players into the game and as that is what it was designed for i'll give it a thumbs up, but the implications of this product are likely to cause trouble down the road i think.
May 18, 2016 12:53 a.m.
if they had designed them to not be in standard at all they could have actually put decent reprints into these as well, Creating interest from new and old players. I'm not saying they put LotV vs JtMS in $15 MSRP boxes and tank the economy, but something like counterspell, Birthing Pod, Lightning Bolt, Rancor, Demonic Tutor, etc..... could have been nice. They don't like making reprints really though so idk why we expect them at this point.
May 18, 2016 12:57 a.m.
Ownagemaster says... #5
Because of hopes and dreams of what once was. That's why.
May 18, 2016 1:02 a.m.
Lokotor they do what you're describing with Dual Decks, which I also love.
May 18, 2016 8:27 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
So I looked up Erdos number. I think it is cute that mathematicians are playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon with a prolific author.
May 18, 2016 8:42 a.m.
Gidgetimer - If you think that's "cute", look up "Erdos-Bacon number". Or the even rarer "Erdos-Bacon-Sabbath number".
May 18, 2016 10:07 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
There was a SOI one. So unless you have seen an article that I haven't, they are still making them.
May 18, 2016 12:54 p.m.
They most certainly have not discontinued Dual Decks.
My partner and I bought the last one, Blessed vs Cursed, when it was realised during SOI.
It is one of the better ones, IMO.
May 18, 2016 3:21 p.m. Edited.
Intro packs needed to go. Wizards practically lined them with junk cards which made it hard to get into standard. I found their singleton-like nature led me into EDH better.
I'm not liking the tutors. If they're potent enough to be EDH viable, that's fine...but if they're "search your library for a planeswalker named Funky DudeNames," that's just filler cards to cut. My other concern is that they've slaved the deck to the planeswalker, which is great for flavor, but raises the stakes for R&D. There will be some dud decks to come.
Bundles is a bad idea, at least for me. On paper $3 more for an extra booster is fair...I guess, but it ruins what fat packs were great at; DIY draft. 9 packs and a wad of lands is all you need for 3 players to draft. The catch is that at almost $14 per player. My group is very price sensitive and we found that kinda spendy. After a few drafts, we quit and moved to EDH, casual, and Cube. Now, with Bundles, we essentially have to play for prizes and the buy-in is closer to $15. This is not an improvement, at least not for me.
May 19, 2016 7:52 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
Shouldn't have been. You are only getting 9 packs atm and MSRP of $4 over the MSRP of the packs is pretty crappy for a box, a set guide, a poster, and a spindown. After they go to 10 packs for msrp of $43 they will only be $3 over the MSRP of the packs. Maybe one day they will actually have fatpacks MSRP for less than that of the component packs again.
May 19, 2016 10:11 p.m.
"a box, a set guide, a poster, and a spindown"
and 10 boosters, 85 lands, and two cardboard boxes which fit all the lands and can be used for set tokens.
May 20, 2016 2:19 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #17
I don't see how you can include the packs since I am talking about MSRP above the MSRP of the packs. I really don't know anyone that needs more basics so that has 0 value to most players. You are also the first person I have ever seen that gets any value out of those flimsy little boxes.
May 20, 2016 4:35 a.m.
TCC have done a decent video(s) on fat packs in the past. Essentially, all you are doing is bulk buying boosters.
Oath and BfZ excluded, no one needs the land packs, except your LGS.
The die is nifty, but if you go to plenty of Pre releases and buy FtVs, you'll have loads.
The flimsy boxes can't hold sleeved cards, and are too small for the vast majority of constructed formats.
The set guide is nice, but is made redundant by the internet.
The poster is laughable.
The big box itself is... ok. It will occasionally damage your cards though (even if they're double sleeved), I've personally had my own commander gnarled by the box lid.
So by buying a fat pack, you are forking out $40 (or 30 in real money :P) for 9 packs, or with this change $43/33 for 10. And maybe a die if you don't have enough, and a box that will eat your cards if you're not careful.
May 20, 2016 7:10 a.m.
I can fit a full 60'card deck in those boxes you get with the fat packz
May 20, 2016 12:40 p.m.
You can. You just can't fit them in sleeved.
Not everyone sleeves their decks, so not everyone minds that.
As I said, I like to use mine to store the lands. It makes for a handy "land station" if you're doing draft or sealed with friends.
May 20, 2016 12:43 p.m.
I suppose, but I sleeve all of the cards/tokens that I use, so the boxes are useless. A lot of people (true, not everyone) DO sleeve their cards though, and so these boxes are useless for a lot of people. Not that they'd use them anyway because they'd use something more durable to store their decks.
But that's just the thing. The quality of them is poor (being cardboard and all), and generally speaking, it will be players who are just starting out who would use these boxes, and so wouldn't sleeve (I know I didn't when I started yugioh). Really, we should be teaching new players to sleeve their cards to save them the heartache of that awesome deck they just made being ruined by damage of any kind (be it water damage, shuffling, or creases from the insides of the box crumpling the cards). And these boxes go against that.
Fair enough that you use them as you say, although I prefer the event deck boxes, and prerelease kits to store my lands, since you can actually fit sleeved cards in them.
May 20, 2016 1:17 p.m.
Planechase anthology? Wizards needs to shut up and take my money right NOW!
May 20, 2016 10:50 p.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #23
If they would just sell the 10 packs, dice, and box it comes in I'd pay $40. I don't think the additional paper things and lands are worth the extra $3 though. I usually give away the land packs to my lgs or a newer player when I get the fat packs.
May 23, 2016 3:26 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #24
"Each Planeswalker Deck will have a brand-new planeswalker card, obviously of the Planeswalker the deck is themed around. These cards are being designed to be fun and flavorful but not pushed for tournament play. The idea is we want new players to be excited by them and for them to have a big impact on the game, but we don't want established players to feel obligated to buy the Planeswalker Decks. As a default, the planeswalkers will be expensive to cast and splashy. There will be one copy of this card in the deck, with art tied to the appropriate world." - The linked article. Basically these are the new equally low-powered Neo-Intro decks, but are more flashy and slightly less trashy feeling.
Also "The rare usually will cost one mana less than the planeswalker (to help ramp into the planeswalker) and have an appropriately themed effect. It will then search your library or graveyard for a copy of the specific planeswalker and put it into your hand. (Note that it only looks for the Planeswalker Deck's version of the planeswalker and not any version. Allowing you to get any version had huge developmental issues.) This functionally allows the player to have three copies of their planeswalker, which will increase the chances that it makes its way into play. There will be two copies of this card in the deck and it will have art tied to the Planeswalker."
So no, these will not be good planeswalker tutors. Basically the point of these are to be easily playable intro decks, and unless if something goes horribly Zendikar or Mirrodin awry (Stoneforge Infect FTW) these won't be worth picking up for the more veteran players.
May 24, 2016 3:40 p.m.
magicfanzzz says... #25
Way I feel about the new intro packs:just don't .Unless you want to buy planeswalkers @ $ 2.00
May 25, 2016 2:01 a.m.
magicfanzzz says... #26
forget mt comment. That sound actually reasonable.But depends: which planeswalkers will you use ?
May 25, 2016 2:02 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #27
Interesting discussion of the fat packs ...
I actually use the big boxes, but I bought a few of the big boxes for like ~$3 from some people who bought them for other things. I think I bought one of each of Return to Ravnica's fat packs and have been buying the boxes off people since. I use 6 of the fat pack boxes for my collection; I think the fat pack boxes probably can contain about 500 cards (including ~3 homemade cardboard dividers); most of mine are at around 450 cards.
Wasn't sure if anyone would find that information interesting.
May 25, 2016 3:03 p.m.
omnipotato says... #28
I like the idea of the tutor cards especially if they can be used in other contexts like EDH etc. Something like...
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. Search your library for a Liliana card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
May 25, 2016 4:02 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #29
In the excerpt I referenced, its states that you can only search for that one specific version of the plansewalker in the Duel Deck, a planeswalker they explicitly stated will be flash but overcosted. So rather it would be
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. Search your library for a Liliana, the one from the intro deck and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
May 25, 2016 4:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #30
nobu_the_bard I use the boxes too, but most of the time you can get the box for ~$2-3 and the die for ~$1. You are currently paying full price for everything of any value in the box. In a bundle product like that I would assume that there would be some sort of a discount. I mean you are buying 1/4 of a display box for $40. Display boxes are usually around $100-$120. four storage containers and four spindowns are not worth $40-$60
May 25, 2016 4:48 p.m.
omnipotato says... #31
Harashiohorn Ah that sucks then. Still might be ok for EDH where mana cost isn't as huge of an issue as in modern/standard.
May 25, 2016 5:02 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #32
@Gidgetimer, yeah I just thought it was interesting. I probably wasn't clear. I bought three fat packs (the Ravnica ones) then started only buying the boxes that interested me off people who weren't interested in keeping them. Only paying around $3 (sometimes in trades rather than cash) for the boxes. I had already decided buying packs outside of Limited events isn't cost effective for my purposes.
I don't think, in general, buying packs without some kind of other benefit (like getting to participate in Limited events) is generally superior to buying singles.
I'm not sure, at $3 for a box that holds 500 cards, how that stacks up to similar things. I'm at work and can't check.
May 25, 2016 5:14 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #33
Any product that fuels my Cromat Superfriends EDH deck is welcome in my book. I got tired of the intro decks anyways. The featured rare was almost always shit, as was the bulk rare they threw in there for no reason other than they had to. And the rest of the deck was just as shit, if not shittier. So I'm welcoming this with open arms. I'll definitely pick up the first few and see how I like them then.
As for some of the other things mentioned...
-Planechase Anthology. Shutupandtakemymoney.jpg
-Nissa vs Ob Nixilis. Yes. My Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath EDH deck needed another Nixy for the theme (it's built around every incarnation of Ob Nix there is).
-This new Planeswalker, Saleeni Li or whatever. I'm going to be sorely disappointed if there aren't any UR articles about her backstory, but I'm golden just on the fact that there's going to be another new Planeswalker for me to brew around.
-Being a somewhat overweight MTG player, I always enjoyed referring to Fat Packs as "my kind of pack". Sadly I won't be able to do that anymore. Also with it being [Block Name] Bundle now, will that mean they'll only come out with the second set in each block and have 5 of set 1 and 5 of set 2? I'd kind of prefer it that way, anyway.
May 26, 2016 2:31 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #34
DemonDragonJ, miracleHat: Planeswalkers are the most desired cards by far, printing products centered around them just is like printing cash for WotC. It makes simple sense, make what your customers desire. Also, look at exactly who this product is made for, the audience that loves planeswalkers the most.
May 26, 2016 5:41 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #35
Femme_Fatale, why are planeswalkers so popular, other than the fact that WotC is emphasizing them so heavily? Are they really that awesome compared to all other card types?
May 26, 2016 11:17 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #36
Planeswalkers are really flashy and exciting to new players, they have multiple abilities (ooh) and often bomb-y ulties (aah). Its a tougher sell with more veteran players who are waiting to Vindicate the crap out of them, but essentially even the newest player can look at a planeswalker and think its cool and exciting, while it takes years of experience before the true beauty of cards like Counterspell and Lightning Bolt become apparent, let alone the time it takes for cards like Fiery Fall seem awesome. Basically, if you are trying to sell something to new players, the best way to do that is with a card that easily seems good and "awesome" to them. More experienced player might salivate at the inclusion of Force of Will but that would miss the point, the point is that little Johhny will be at his LGS and see Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker and go "that looks awesome", and give the game a try.
May 27, 2016 12:23 a.m.
Except that everything you just wrote doesn't really apply to Standard.
In Standard at the moment there are quite a few PWs that can basically finish games on their own.
May 27, 2016 12:29 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #38
Standard is also designed to entice new players. All of the other spells he mentioned are not in standard. If Vindicate, Counterspell, Force of Will, hell even Hero's Downfall were in standard the walkers that are good in standard would no longer be nearly as good. Walkers are running wild because there are no good spells to remove them.
May 27, 2016 5:27 a.m.
PookandPie says... #39
Of course everything he said doesn't apply to Standard, because if you interpret the intent behind the post, he's using Standard as a, "Training wheels" format for lesser experienced players.
The more experienced players in the game will know of the power of Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, and Vindicate, but newer ones won't because of Standards lower power level, which is why Planeswalkers seem really good to newbies.
Hopefully this better explains his intent to you.
May 27, 2016 5:34 a.m.
Oh I got the intent.
It just doesn't relate at all to how the new PW packs will suit new players.
May 27, 2016 2:39 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #41
He wasn't explaining why the PW packs suit new players, he was explaining why Planeswalkers as a card type appeal to new players. Did you even read the comments he was responding to or did you just decide "oh hell no he is saying PW are bad cards".
The question was posed "why do PW appeal to new players?" Harashiohorn responded with "They are flashy and have obvious power, so newer players like them the best as a card type." He went on to explain that many veteran players would prefer something like Force of Will the power of such cards aren't as apparent.
What you say about 'walkers finishing games in standard may be true. That has nothing to do with the fact that players that know how to assess cards like powerful cards where as new players like flashy cards.
May 27, 2016 3:01 p.m.
Yeah, I read everything in this thread.
I don't think you understand what I am saying though, so I'll,leave it at that.
May 27, 2016 3:53 p.m.
Vergil_Redgrail says... #43
Well I'm not going to read through every comment so this may have been mentioned already, but the Planeswalker decks will have a specific NEW Planeswalker that isn't a reprint. It will be an entirely separate walker, and the card that tutors for it will tutor that specific walker. At least that's how it was described in the release notes.
May 28, 2016 2:18 a.m.
Let's hope the tutor is good on its own. At least in a non-competitive sense.
May 28, 2016 10:52 a.m.
I think the goal is for kitchen table, standing-standing-in-the-checkout-line buyers to enjoy this product more than the old intros, and I think WOTC has nailed that goal. If someone is already at their LGS this might already be "below" their level of value or competitiveness, but I think the Wal-Mart/Target crowd will go nuts.
May 28, 2016 1:02 p.m.
I prefer these PW packs over the intro packs, which I never cared for.
Also I always see them sitting around in stores and wonder about how many people actually buy them. PW packs will have more pull outside of just being a brand new mtg player. Maybe not competitive but EDH players will surely enjoy the packs.
May 29, 2016 11:16 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #47
I wouldn't assume all EDH players will enjoy the PW packs. Many EDH players enjoy playing with good cards. They have pretty much said that the PW packs will not have the value in cards equal to or greater than their MSRP (which is what would make established players want them). The PW packs, like the intro decks before them, are for newer players just learning to play who want an already assembled product.
It would be awesome if they did like the Commander yearly series and had cards valued at or slightly above MSRP. I liked buying the intro decks when I first started playing, but now regret it since the cards from them are now just bulk in my collection.
McSleuthburger says... #1
Basically how well the decks do will depend on how good the planeswalker is
How I fell about the new fat packs: Meh
May 17, 2016 5:31 p.m. Edited.