Shaman of forgotten ways is it ban worthy?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 3, 2015, 11:59 a.m. by fadelightningmm
So as I said above is the new green mythic ban worthy? I expect in edh that after a bit of time it will be banned thanks to the second ability. Biorhythm is banned having the same ability. However I believe that the conditions for activation of that ability may be steep enough to allow the card to work. Any thoughts?
fadelightningmm says... #3
Thanks for posting the picture for me. Also I completely agree I've seen people on facebook stating it will be a snap ban but I believe it'll last for a little while if not forever. As you pointed out you need at least an 8/8 to pull this off
March 3, 2015 12:07 p.m.
Surely it is. Definitely not strong enough for the hammer in other formats I'd say. It may end up being annoying (sometimes) in standard against me playing control, but I don't think it's gonna be that big of a deal
March 3, 2015 12:10 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #6
fadelightningmm a 6/6 actually.
Formidable counts the total of all creatures.
March 3, 2015 12:11 p.m.
FatherLiir says... #7
I know everyone who bought the green C14 deck will want this and I will hate them for it
March 3, 2015 12:15 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
I think Bruce does a pretty good job in his preview article explaining how different this is from an actual Biorhythm, and how it's probably not ban-worthy in the same way.
March 3, 2015 12:52 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #9
Definitely an awesome card, but he will be nearly impossible to pull of in any format beyond commander. Even then, as stated previously, he is a lightning rod. If you play consistently with a group of friends, you may get away with his ability once or twice before everyone targets you to prevent it from happening again.
March 3, 2015 12:52 p.m.
Will go in my shattergang brothers deck, which sometimes uses prossh at the helm.
March 3, 2015 12:56 p.m.
Depends on the deck. There are plenty of combos that are completely absurd in EDH, and this one actually takes quite a bit of setup to use properly thanks to the high mana investment and Ferocious requirement.
I can see where it can get out of control, especially as someone that runs a Rhys the Redeemed deck, but that still takes quite a bit of time to put together. Make tokens, protect tokens, duplicate tokens, drop Shaman, activate Shaman. That's certainly a lot more work than, say, play Scion of the Ur-Dragon, attack, MoltenSkittles. Granted, Shaman hits every opponent, but it also takes effort and a protected board state to use without getting burned.
March 3, 2015 1:02 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #12
note if you're playing control in standard and an opponent is at 11 mana with 8 power on board you're probably losing with or without that guy's ability.
March 3, 2015 1:13 p.m.
Hm..... It could be quite fun in an Omnath deck...
If I have an 10/10 Omnath, am I then able to activate the formidable ability?
March 3, 2015 1:16 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #14
NorthernRaven it's 8 combined power. You could activate it if you had this guy and a 6/6 anything. You could even activate this guy if you simply Become Immenseed him.
March 3, 2015 1:22 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #15
Ohthenoises I think the question is with omnath specifically. If you have a 10/10 omnath and the shaman, will you be able to activate the ability by paying with the floating mana from omnath and some lands. Assuming you use all the floating mana and omnath and the shaman are your only creatures, omath would become a 1/1 giving you a total of 3 power after paying and tapping the shaman.
Would this prevent the shaman from activating or would it activate normally?
March 3, 2015 1:35 p.m.
dantekratos says... #16
getting to 8 power on the board and 11 mana is not that hard to do in edh.
you could debate about combo's. but I would find it strange when this will not be banned in edh.
March 3, 2015 1:37 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #17
Okay, now that weisemanjohn has explained it, I understand what NorthernRaven was asking.
Restrictions on whether or not a certain spell or ability can be cast or activated are checked at the moment you would start to cast/activate them. At the time you announce Shaman's ability you have a 10/10 Omnath, so it's legal to activate it. Paying costs is the very last step of the casting/activation process, and the game doesn't go back in time and stop you from announcing the ability when Omnath shrinks.
March 3, 2015 1:53 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #18
As a tap ability summoning sickness puts it on a different level then the other one. Still good, and a great alternate wincon.
March 3, 2015 2:06 p.m.
Ah, yea, my question was maybe a little bad :P
However, what weisemanjohn said is what I meant! Are you 100% sure Rhadamanthus, that you don't pay the mana first, and then activate the ability?
March 3, 2015 2:08 p.m.
For this thing to win you a game you...:
1) Need to have 11 mana available.
2) Need to have 8 Power or more on board.
3) Need to have a better board state than your opponent (to get through for that final few points)
4) Not be playing against a deck that can burn you for your last few points before you can get through.
If you have all of that, you should have already won.
I would say that this definitely counts as a 'win-more'... almost the definition of 'win-more'... I'll probably use this as an example from here on in, when teaching new-players what 'win-more' means!
March 3, 2015 2:10 p.m.
Remember that Biorhythm is mainly banned because of the number of board wipes used in EDH... Opponent wipes the board, you drop an Llanowar Elves and cast Biorhythm... game over.
With this... your opponent board wipes, this thing is gone...
Even if you have something to give it haste and the 14 mana required to cast it and activate it... you still need 8 power onboard.
It's almost impossible to abuse in the same manner of Biorhythm.
March 3, 2015 2:17 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #23
NorthernRaven If I'm correctly reading the card. You can only pay the 11 mana if you have formidable. Therefore you need the combined 8 power prior to paying. So in the case of Omnath it would work
March 3, 2015 2:25 p.m.
slovakattack says... #24
There are more than enough conditions to allow this card playability in EDH, imo.
March 3, 2015 4:09 p.m.
This is going in my Anafenza, the Foremost deck simply because I can easily achieve the 15+ mana to use this card, a field wipe and Soul of New Phyrexia's activated ability in one turn.
March 3, 2015 4:13 p.m.
Rayenous that's exactly how I feel about it, I highly doubt it will be banned. People just see the Biorhythm ability and instantly think it will be banned, but for some reason people don't understand that if you were able to meet all the conditions to win with this card, you're most likely already winning.
March 3, 2015 4:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
@NorthernRaven: As Rhadamanthus said, paying costs is the last step in activating an ability (and in casting a spell). You never pay the cost before any other step in the casting/activation process (even though most people will, in practice, activate mana abilities and then reveal a card to announce the cast or activation [even this order isn't technically wrong; it just implies that the mana is being floated prior to the casting/activation process]).
March 3, 2015 5:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
I'm going to move this to EDH. Remember that format-specific discussions go in the format forums.
March 3, 2015 5:53 p.m.
weisemanjohn says... #29
I think this was in the correct location because it was a discussion on a newly spoiled card, the thread itself though changed over to EDH as that is where most people who are considering the usage of the card would find it to be most effective.
March 3, 2015 6:34 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #30
Well, to keep it here, I'm going to say Standard is going to be HELL for control decks with this guy. Mono green devotion makes creatures really fast, as well as having access to spells like Karametra's Acolyte, Elvish Mystic, Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, Rattleclaw Mystic, and Frontier Siege. Control will either have to mainboard in a lot of creatures or token cards, making mass removal spells harder for them to play against, run a 4 of Perilous Vault, which is a 9 mana wrath the turn you use it, or have to highly up their removal count. Besides, mono green has cards like Polukranos, World Eater to deal damage to opposing creatures, Hornet Queen and Hornet Nest to make tokens fast, and Nylea, God of the Hunt to trample over damage. So even against a token deck, this card alone makes mono-green matchups a 60%-65% favor. Then again, we haven't seen the rest of DTK, so we can't actually analyze perfectly how other matchups are going to be, and what weapons they have in their arsenal to counter this manadork/wincon.
March 3, 2015 6:43 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #31
okay, so I've seen people saying elves for it, but what color elves? mono-green seems not the best place because of lacking board wipes, what about something like G/B elves to have access to In Garruk's Wake, or G/W elves for access to a whole bunch of wraths as well as ways to protect your team.
March 3, 2015 6:45 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #32
I want to make a deck with edicts, and Mogis, God of Slaughter, and super ramp with him.
Anyone think that would be good?
March 3, 2015 7:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
@weisemanjohn: The context is basically all about EDH. Biorhythm is only banned in EDH, and this card is only bannable in EDH if anything.
March 3, 2015 7:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #34
Additionally, discussions that focus heavily on a format's theory or environment go in that format's forum, not in SRS, even if you're discussing a new card. The discussion is more about the format at that point.
March 3, 2015 7:11 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #35
For a standard deck I was thinking That dude, frontier seige, generator servant, Mogis, God of Slaughter, sylvan caryatid, courser, thoughtseize, kill spell things
March 3, 2015 7:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
Please note that this discussion centers around whether the card in question is banworthy, not how it could be used in general. If you want to discuss possibilities for this card that don't center on criteria supporting or not supporting a ban, please create a new thread or post in the featured discussion about DTK.
March 3, 2015 7:17 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #37
I do not think it is ban worthy in standard, and hope it is not ban worthy in EDH. I think the fact that he is a creature, and you have to work around that, and his ability costs a little more, will keep him out of ban range. Just a good solid EDH option.
I do not see him playing in modern/legacy at all. Just EDH/Standard.
March 3, 2015 7:25 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #38
Sorry Epochalyptik I saw discussion on facebook about how it will be snap banned in edh and how it is potentially ban-able in standard as well.
My intention was to discuss possible bans in both formats, but seeing as I'm an edh player I guess I put the wrong spin on the post
March 3, 2015 10:21 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #39
I can move it back to SRS if you intend for this to be a discussion of both formats, but I highly doubt that it'll be banned in any format. It's certainly not a snap-ban, at any rate.
March 4, 2015 12:02 a.m.
fadelightningmm I'm curious as to how it would potentially banned in Standard, considering no cards have been banned in it since JTMS, and this is no where near that power level.
March 4, 2015 12:08 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #41
Wolfninja I honestly have no clue people on the tcgplayer facebook page said it would which baffled me. I guess my hope was someone who shared that view would comment so I can see where they are coming from. In my time back in magic I haven't seen anything banned in standard. I've been following spoilers since dark ascension and I never even saw a comment about banning in standard.
March 4, 2015 4:04 a.m.
fadelightningmm I guess if were talking about a ban in standard the view point, I'm guessing, is probably along the lines of it allowing very ramp heavy decks the option of smashing more creature light decks in a quick fashion. That being said, 11 mana in standard is HARD to pull off, especially when the format has Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall and Lightning Strike and, and and the list goes on. He'll never last more than a turn if the player is smart and sees that their opponent is close to doing it.
More on topic, EDH he seems pretty fair. The decks that'll abuse it the hardest are ones that are G/B/x and even then its a LOT to set it up. That being said I've already preordered a foil cause I wanna In Garruk's Wake into this guy sooooo bad in EDH.
March 4, 2015 5:59 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #43
I really can't see this being banned anywhere. In modern/legacy, it's just too slow. In standard, if you ever have a situation where this is a win condition, you're probably winning anyhow. (That said, it could nicely set up a win condition, if you have more extra creatures than they'll have life, and then swing in for a win).
Likewise for EDH - if you have 8 power on the field and your opponent(s) have no creatures, and you have 11 open mana - its pretty much the definition of win more.
March 4, 2015 6:21 a.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #44
No reason to ban it, since it is not as sudden as the other card. It looks like a fun thing to do randomly.
March 4, 2015 7:26 p.m.
I played in a tournament last night with a mono green devotion deck. I only had two Shamans in the deck and I was running 4 Collected Company. The Shaman was added as a last minute afterthought because I was unable to find two Deathmist Raptors that I was planning to run instead.
I took first place and it's no exaggeration that the Shaman won 60% of my games. While about half of those wins came when board state was good enough that I was likely to still win, it would have been several turns later and victory was not even remotely guaranteed.
In short, I don't think I will play green again without this card.
April 25, 2015 5:14 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #46
I can say for commander, I've played against it, and it was definitely powerful and scary, but never too good.
April 25, 2015 9:22 p.m.
FaustHarbinger says... #47
With the amount of board wipes in commander I dont see him as a threat. having 8 power and 11 mana without this guy might not be hard but he also puts a target on his head bad. Biorhythm is banned because it is too easily casted and spells are far easier to pull off rather than creature abilites given the high concentration of board wipes.
April 26, 2015 4:40 p.m.
Soul_Power says... #49
Definately ban worthy. The formidable is nothing in a format running rampant with man-lands, it's something you can easily hit with just the shaman on the board and a Mutavault and Celestial Colonnade after you have cast Chord of Calling at the end of the previous player's turn. From the moment I saw this card, I knew it would be responsible for some shenanigans and I have personally abused this card several times already.
May 26, 2015 3:25 a.m.
Soul_Power says... #50
I'm talking EDH for anyone who didn't already guess. The only format I can see this being relevant in.
JWiley129 says... #2
The issue with Biorhythm is that you can cast it with a measly Elvish Mystic in play and kill everyone. However for Shaman of forgotten ways it costs
to pay AND you have to have at least 8 power worth of creatures in play to use. I'm not sold on him being banned right away, especially in the decks that will use him, he will be a lightning rod if you ever saw one.
March 3, 2015 12:02 p.m.