Sultai got screwed IMHO
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Sept. 11, 2014, 4:11 p.m. by Bellock86
So this is partially related to spoiler and part rant. You have been warned.
I apologize to epoch if this is in the wrong place.
So Sultai cards seem cool. Not completely powerhouse but not complete trash and also seem fun. But from a playability stand point it is clearly the weakest clan to me.
Add to that the fact that abzan's clan chief completely nerfs Sidisi and I'm just pissed.
So my question and logic is ~ why?
Why make it to where sultai is damn near unplayable as Abzan is so strong that TONS of people are going to play it.
I just don't understand. That was the rant. Now this is the "spoiler part".
What build/archetype would sultai fit best given the cards we've seen and when combined with the other sets? I'm just not good enough at deck theorizing to come up with it myself.
Thanks,
Bellock
I don't think outlast will be completely depended on though.
I somewhat disagree. I don't think a deck can thrive in a meta where the answer card is easily available. Rest in peace wasn't massively played because it didn't fit into most decks that needed it. Control included white but didn't need it. The others that did need it couldn't cast it usually. Decks that suffer to reanimator are the slower green decks - splashing white for Rest in Peace means you can go selesnya, which was a much faster deck at that time and didn't particularly need it either. Similarly, Anafenza is not easily available, given her tough to meet mana cost. In that respect I think sultai is fine.
September 11, 2014 4:33 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #4
I think it all depends on how the meta forms. All of these clan spoilers have everyone talking about what clan they're going to play and they completely write off Mono and Dual colored decks post-rotation. For all we know, none of the clans are Standard playable with respective to Mono and Dual colored decks. We really don't have a way to know until we start to see some results.
September 11, 2014 4:54 p.m.
I lay somewhere between agreeing and disagreeing with you. Basically I just have a couple things to mention.
First, I do actually think Abzan is going to be the strongest clan. Let's face it: they have access to most of what have been considered "the best cards in standard." I refer, of course, to Elspeth, Sun's Champion , Courser of Kruphix , Sylvan Caryatid , Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall . Add to that their new 4-drop rhino, access to Soldier of the Pantheon , Fleecemane Lion , Brimaz, King of Oreskos , Utter End , Despise , Banishing Light , Anafenza, their amazing charm and sweet ascendancy, other new white removal and more, and I think you've the makings of a real powerhouse that is hard to completely answer. They can be aggro, they can be midrange, and they can be control. They can change to fit whatever the meta requires of them. Outlast? Dude, who needs that when you can just play all the best cards -- Just abzan 'em out.
That aside, I also don't think Sultai is all that bad. My gf (who admittedly is not a tournament-winning player, but still) has been brewing alongside me with a sultai brew. There's a bit of self-mill involved and I must say...Necropolis Fiend is a powerhouse. He loves when the opponent is relying on Stormbreath Dragon , he eats up the opposing board when things are stalled, and he can be as much as a 2-drop 4/5 flyer. Sultai also has access to some of the best cards. All the green and black cards mentioned above, plus all the goodies that blue brings.
Anafenza makes delve less good, but not unplayable. Hell, Tormod's Crypt is more of a hoser than she is and nobody is griping over that. Keep in mind that black has access to removal, and she is not hexproof.
Now, one final thing to say. I get that the problem with using removal on Ana is that you need so much removal because of just how many threats a deck like Abzan mid can play. I get that. And frankly, that's why I agree that Abzan is the most powerful clan right now. But just remember that even if it's the best right now, a single new set could change that. Play what makes you happy and maybe you'll think of a way around Abzan that no one has even thought of yet :)
September 11, 2014 5:09 p.m.
@Spootyone: Abzan is pretty much going down the road of Junk Goodstuffs, which is why I'm playing it. Outlast is a pretty cool mechanic, but the sorcery speed turns me off of it. You should check my latest brew, Endurance of Abzan or something like that. It's pretty much what you described, all "the best cards in standard."
September 11, 2014 5:52 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #7
I'm enjoying Sultai but not because of the clan. I'm building walkers. Kidnap the Sandyclaws! is my current brew. It needs a bit more work but for the most part it's extraordinarily nasty. Kiora, the Crashing Wave + Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a little stupid.
Everything ChiefBell mentions is true for me. He hit all the nails on, or around, the head.
September 11, 2014 6:03 p.m.
Thank you to Spootyone, ChiefBell, and trentfaris242 for the insight.
All of you make very good points. I like reanimator as a deck strategy. I played it once when Tormod's Crypt was standard legal but I had Willbender as a 4 of in my sideboard. Lol
The clan that most terrifies me is mardu. I'm a midrange/combo player by nature and the speed at which that clan can come at you is heart stopping.
So maybe sultai isn't as hosed as I first thought. I wasn't really thinking about Anafenza's mana cost mostly cuz it's in green with Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid but Sidisi has the same access. I might digital brew with sultai but honestly I'm a little disenchanted with delve. I don't like the idea of my cards be going from the game. If the wrong stuff is in my yard I won't be able to cast some of my better cards like Necropolis Fiend
trentfaris242 also brought up mono color which is interesting. I have been looking for an excuse to build a Waste Not deck and budget might be as good a reason as any. Lol
September 11, 2014 6:04 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #10
Mardu got 1,000,000,000X better because of Bloodsoaked Champion .
T4 Butcher of the Horde
, sac Bloodsoaked Champion
, give haste.
T5 Swing with Butcher of the Horde
, saccing something for vigilance, before blockers pay 1B reanimate and sac for lifelink, Pay 1B again to get the champion onto the field to sac next turn.
It's a little stupid.
September 11, 2014 6:10 p.m.
For constructed purposes, I agree with those before me, Sultai is fine. It has a lot of tools already to work with and will get more once Khans is legal.
If we're talking KTK exclusively, I do agree with your first post. It's the weakest clan to me by a decent margin. They have a couple of very good delve cards (Murderous Cut , Dig Through Time ) and Jeskai Charm , but the rest of what's been spoiled for that clan doesn't excite me.
September 11, 2014 6:12 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #12
I'm going to be running BG Midrange post rotation, because I believe Reaper of the Wilds is still one of the strongest creatures in the format. You have a much easier mana pool than Abzan, but still get access to all the black and green goodies like Thoughtseize and Courser of Kruphix .
September 11, 2014 6:21 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #13
So here's the deal, we need to talk about what delve is and isn't. It ISN'T something that you play very successfully be just dumping a bunch of random shit into the 'yard and then try to abuse because your library is very limited and if you overtax your 'yard you end up with a useless deck. It IS a powerful way to access the 3rd resource of the game (after mana and life), which not everyone has access to. I think the strongest versions of Sultai will be using the clan and the mechanic how it was intended, which is as a resource manipulation deck that keeps going even after it's cast spells and you kill its creatures.
Sultai control is going to be a force to reckon with, mark my words. It has the power of UB control with the durability that G gives in terms of regrowth, and several delve spells spoiled so far will be incredibly powerful. Additionally, Sultai Ascendancy
is the least obvious, but pretty arguably the best of the cycle, and Sultai Charm
is either the best, or a close second to Abzan Charm. Sultai didn't get screwed, it's just not an obvious or simple mechanic for a complex and interesting clan and color set. Give them some time and then revisit this, you'll see.
September 11, 2014 6:24 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #15
I honestly don't see the decks that dominate the meta featuring clan cards for each wedge and building around their mechanics.. So from a standard standpoint, I say it doesn't matter. However for limited, I can definitely see clan power levels becoming a problem.
September 11, 2014 7:35 p.m.
I'll second Sultai control.. Let's not forget that BUG Control was a fairly big contender in the previous Block Constructed GP, so a lot of the tools are already there to work with :)
September 11, 2014 7:36 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #17
I messed around with Sultai Walkers and Midrange a few weeks ago and agree with Ohthenoises, Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver work very well together. Ashiok himself is a bad mofo, he wrecks midrange decks. The deck lost a couple great cards but has gained a lot more good ones. It's got a lot of flexibility.
September 11, 2014 7:38 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #18
Sultai is definitely the coolest though, it has access to colors that can help; blue can counter and black can kill so you really have access to what you need to react to your opponent playing cards that "shut you down"
September 11, 2014 7:39 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
Rasta_Viking29 I've been testing with Dig Through Time and my god.....
September 11, 2014 7:53 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #20
@ Ohthenoises It's got a spot in the Modern deck I'm running already.
September 11, 2014 8:16 p.m.
quesobueno123 says... #22
Mardu is the best. So who cares if any other clan gets anything.
September 11, 2014 8:21 p.m.
Reanimator decks had been around with Rest in Peace in standard, which is easily splashable as a sideboard card. Anafenza on the other hand has very specific mana restrictions and even is legendary. Also you can just Stain the Mind Anafenza and be done with it :3
September 11, 2014 8:21 p.m.
deathtouch_roadrunner says... #24
All I know is that my excitement for Villainous Wealth knows no bounds.
September 11, 2014 9:10 p.m.
LordOfDispair says... #25
You got the best mechanic, and you have some of the best cards from the previous block. I think you're pretty set.
September 11, 2014 9:24 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #26
@ Ohthenoises it's a fun-of due to the prohibitive cost, but it wins games.
YouGotFranked says... #2
Anafenza, the Foremost Existence will not stop the Sultai from being playable. Last time Reanimator was dominating, Rest in Peace was in the format so having 1 card shutting down a strategy will not make that strategy unplayable. Sultai strategy will obviously rely on the graveyard, so there might be a reanimator deck around.
As for Abzan, you might be overvaluing them a little. Yes they have some very good cards, but they're not gonna dominate every other clans. For one they seems a little slow due to the way Outlast is made.
September 11, 2014 4:26 p.m.