Themes for Next Block
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on June 5, 2019, 1:27 p.m. by gupp7
Soc here's what seems possible given what we've seen with modern horizons and ravnica block, perhaps these themes will be continued in different ways
tribal- i think the next set will have tribal themes. it will be an entirely new world, and have more than these previous sets. based around different kingdoms in the area.
multicolored- each tribe is a color wedge. wihte/red/black is one tribe, for instance. similar to khans, but with more blending to make this sometimes a 4-5 color set.
ice permanents/sagas: i think the next set might be set in a norse themed world. both of these work well to fit this theme, and snow might finally get a playable modern deck.
now on to tribe types
frost liches: (black/ green / blue) far in the north rule the undead liches, over vast sweathes of tundra. those entering thier domain find a frozen world ruled by powerful shamans who weild both frost and death magic. thier legions of undead and armored bears pour forth to claim more corpses for its slowly growing empire.
Aelves/dwarves/faeries (White/Red/Blue) Little Known beyond old wive's tales and old legends, the dwarves and elves rule a hidden underground kingdom. Caring little for the plights of mortals, these creatures delight in countless pranks and minor thefts on the world.
Wyrmkin Blue/Red/Green The demi-human kingdom hails from the great ur-wurm who gouged the great fjords and raised mountains. All of his decendants still live a harsh, scattered existance at the edges of the rimeblight.
Kingdom of Jor Green/Wihte/Black Perhaps the only truly civilized land, this kingdoms enjoys both a fair climate and prosperous trade with its neighbors. it has long been thought of as a jewel in the north.
Orcs (Red/White/Black) Constantly raiding, this kingdom strikes fear into the hearts of men. Like lightning, orc raids can appear at any place and any time, and dissapear as quickly. utilizing thier longboats, this kingdom aims to grace its halls with the trophies of a thousand lands.
Last_Laugh says... #3
I'm of the unpopular opinion that I want a return to Alara.
June 5, 2019 4:39 p.m.
with regards to kamaigawa, i want them to change arcane to a supertype meaning "any instant or sorcery",
and also make the art in anime style so that not everyone has to buy it in only japanese
June 5, 2019 5:01 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #5
To clarify, with Alara I'd love to see a trip to the past leading up to and explaining the Sundering. WotC said when they ditched the 3 set blocks that they could essentially jump around in time... something they haven't done yet. Hopefully with the Gatewatch story arc getting some closure they start doing this.
June 5, 2019 5:11 p.m.
I kind of feel like the only "return to" set should be dominaria. even ravnica has gotten stale.
Let's see dominaria in core and go other places with the advanced sets.
We can just see a plane for one or two sets, like ixalan or amonkhet, and keep seeing different, lesser examined corners.
June 5, 2019 5:47 p.m.
where will the main story even go now that bolas is gone? no more leaders means tezz and rest will simply look after their own ends... so possibly one of them cant still eventually cause trouble else where... even the eldrazi are away for now. the whole post mending arcs over...yawgmoth gone also.
June 5, 2019 7:30 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #8
Things you suggested that have been done very recently:oh- all of them? All of them. Let’s discuss.
Tribal: Ixalan. That was two blocks ago.
Multicolored: Ravnica. The most recent standard-legal block.
Ice permanents: Modern Horizons. The literal most recent product Wizards put out.
Sagas: Dominaria. The second last block (that wasn’t a core set).
Now, if the Wizards team did do a norse set, let’s look at the tribes we’re working with and where they traditionally fall in terms of colors.
Warriors- every color but blue.
Barbarians- usually just black, red, and green.
Humans- every color.
Shamans- also black, red, and green. Jund ‘em out, Norse mythology.
Gods- traditionally color-balanced. Note: this could also be the first plane with gods that aren’t indestructible/incredibly difficult to kill.
Giants- though red/white on Lorwyn, many norse giants are Jötnar, who would probably be blue or blue/black?
Elves- traditionally green, probably more black norse myth, though I’m not really sure.
Dwarves- traditionally red, probably more white or red/white in norse myth.
Zombies- traditionally black or blue/black. Probably blue/black here.
Faeries- traditionally blue, probably blue/red, blue/black, or some combination therein.
June 5, 2019 9:03 p.m.
As always, my plea: new plane, non-historical fantasy. The last few original planes were Kylem (Battlebond supplement), Ixalan (historical fantasy), Bablovia (parody supplement, steampunk), Amonkhet (historical fantasy), Kaladesh (steampunk), Tarkir (not quite historical fantasy), and Theros (historical fantasy). There's a lot of Planechase planes that aren't drawn from real-world history; why not use Azgol, or Fabacin, or Belenon?
June 5, 2019 10:24 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #10
i think a return to kamigawa is in order. we have new ninjas now which is cool and all, but still nowhere near the level of support as other creature types. and they can't just ignore samurai. its only fair we get some new samurai as well that are actually playable.
June 5, 2019 10:35 p.m.
oh, new samurai, for sure. it'd be interesting to see more of them, and maybe have there be some sort of "last samurai" sort of theme where tezzeret is bringing in all sorts of magical technology and causing chaos to the old order.
June 5, 2019 10:50 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #12
I think we're all dreaming. Rosewater has repeatedly shot down the possibility of a return to Kamigawa and Alara is 50/50.
MaRo regarding Return to Kamigawa - 2/2017 "I can't with good conscience go to my bosses and say, of every option available to us, I recommend the world that was critically and financially one of most problematic worlds we've ever done."
He also has it as an 8/10 on his Rabiah Scale. Similar to his Storm Scale the Rabiah Scale touches on the likelihood of revisiting a plane rather than a mechanic returning. (Higher being less likely)
Sadly Alara is a 5 on that scale... "Alara is a world with a lot of issues for a return. It has a strong mechanical identity, but it's something that has execution issues. The individual shards have a strong creative identity, but less so as you blend them together. There are reasons the story could want to return to Alara, but nothing is forcing us there. I gave it a 5 because I believe there's a better chance we'll return than not, but it's far from a sure thing."
June 5, 2019 11:05 p.m. Edited.
ZendikariWol says... #13
(@me, presently building a custom return to Alara set/maybe block)
June 5, 2019 11:12 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #14
Last_Laugh just because they did kamigawa poorly in the past, doesn't mean they couldn't revisit it and do it right. they're already giving us new ninjas, and that statement you quoted is over 2 years old now. so a return to kamigawa still seems possible. i think the reason kamigawa didn't do so well isn't simply because its kamigawa, but rather because most cards from that block are just not good, or because they falsely associated it with anime just because it was japanese theme. its been 15 years since the first set of the kamigawa block has been released, and the social climate has changed a lot since then.
June 5, 2019 11:20 p.m.
I think Kamigawa will make most of its appearances in stuff like Modern Horizons, maybe a Core Set mention or two, but not get another dedicated set. I'm kind of surprised there haven't been any Samurai since then.
Alara was my favorite block for a long time, and it's still in my top three, and my number one choice for a revisit, to see how the plane might look several hundred years down the line, or even in the immediate aftermath of Alara Reborn. There's a lot of story potential there that doesn't need to build off whatever happens to the Gatewatch, but also doesn't directly exclude them.
All the same, I'm going to repeat myself. I'd like an original plane that's not drawn from Earth's history.
June 5, 2019 11:33 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #16
Ok, let me give you a quote from like 7 months ago (aka those ninjas you speak of were already designed).
MaRo 11/12/18 Rabiah Scale Pt. 1 "As I've explained numerous times on social media, this return is a tough sell for me to make internally based on how disastrous the first visit went. The biggest factor that a return hinges on is how much are we allowed to change and still call it Kamigawa. The set has minimal mechanical space we want to return to and many creative choices we would do differently if we started over with the source material. I wouldn't count out the chance of a return, but it's not a big one."
June 5, 2019 11:34 p.m.
i just want a card with nezumi "ratling" gunners fighting a bunch of samurai "fire! fire! i said keep firing!"
June 5, 2019 11:40 p.m.
I think Kamigawa failed because of mechanical reasons, not social reasons. The cards were poorly balanced ( Numai Outcast and Sensei's Divining Top are uncommons from the same set), the mechanics were almost entirely self-contained and frequently overly mana-hungry (Soulshift and Splice onto Arcane come to mind), and, as Funkydiscogod mentions, it came right after the ridiculousness of Affinity, which is why artifact lands will likely never be printed again.
Additionally, the consumer base at large probably isn't as familiar with Shinto folklore and traditional Japanese folklore in general as they are with Greek or Egyptian mythology, so they have a harder time understanding the themes.
June 6, 2019 12:14 a.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #19
The return of ninjas shows that wotc is at least willing to give kamigawa mechanics another chance. So its unlikely that wotc is worried about backlash for “cultural appropriation”.
June 6, 2019 12:43 a.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #20
Last_Laugh: that quote still only considers that kamigawa didnt sell well, and not “why” it didn’t sell well. Im not saying a return to kamigawa is likely, im saying maro isnt accurately considering what changes could make it better.
June 6, 2019 12:48 a.m.
The problem with "lets just do a non cultural fantasy set" is it limits things, or can make them harder. "i want to do an ice set" led to "norse fits well". it's just like ixalan problably started out as "jungle set" and so forth.
we have to create a pretty strange place for it to not feel like somewhere. underwater maybe? most of those things seem more like gimmicks or small planes that aren't really something you can expand much on.
June 6, 2019 1:13 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #22
Yeah, but Hasbro cares about the $$$. I mean if you were in MaRo's shoes... would you put your ass on the line to chance it? No, you wouldn't because it's safer by far not to. He also wouldn't want to burn bridges because they'd be a lot less likely going forward to hear him out on his pet projects and he knows it.
June 6, 2019 5:40 a.m.
nine_of_swords says... #23
I dunno. From my experience, Maro's overstating the amount of mechanical overhaul Kamigawa needs. Since standard over the last few years had been pretty bad, I'd chop off the older year of sets and add an old block. Kamigawa's pretty much getting to be the go to block for me in that regard. It's actually pretty good at not being overpowering or under performing. It surprisingly tends to integrate well in odd ways, and having access to good duals actually changes the game play of the block a lot. For example, I didn't expect Kamigawa to be more interesting with Ixalan block than Dominaria, but it is (Pirates + Ninja, Dinos + Breach/Kamigawa Ramp, BG transform lands, etc). It's also shown me that a lot of dud mechanics are often just one card from being interesting (Inspired + Aura of Dominion, Soulshift + Evolutionary Leap). If you think of it as a "legendary block" then, yeah, it would need a lot of work, but it really isn't that much of a theme.
June 6, 2019 7:57 a.m.
gupp7, and anyone pushing for historical planes: I very much disagree that a non-historical plane has to be limited. What everything in a world was partially metal? What if that world became a place that rejected organic life? That's how Mirrodin and New Phyrexia came around. What if a world broke into five mutually exclusive parts, then suddenly recombined? That's Alara. It's a fantasy game. If you start with a fantasy premise, you get a fantasy result. That's fantasy. If you start with the Age of Exploration, except there's dinosaurs in Mesoamerica, the conquistadores are vampires, and there's some random fish people, you get Ixalan. That's historical fantasy.
Also, they don't have to be small planes. Our current knowledge of Amonkhet is one city in a desert, and there's no evidence of anything anywhere else. That plane doesn't have to be any larger than the Nile River delta plus some of the surrounding area. It's smaller than a fairly small region in a fairly small country. I think that's more gimmicky than Mirrodin or Alara, which have lots of space to explore. The Windriddle Palaces and Edge of Malacol of Belenon are more different in apparent theme than any two places on Innistrad or Theros, but we know nothing about them.
Just to make up a couple of potential planes, what if the four classical elements were the guiding forces of a world? What if the world was a cave system with no outside? What if you could only get to a section of a plane while you're sleeping, and it's actually created by lucid dreaming? To me, those are more interesting premises than What if I could learn everything about a plane in five minutes with a history textbook and mythology guide? Yes, it would require more creation, but that's why there's a creative team. Their job is literally to create a world.
I need to say here that I would be very happy with a Nordic ice world, and it and Polynesia are my top choices for real-world inspiration. But it's hard to maintain the reason I enjoy fantasy, the feeling of exploration and learning about a world, when everything has a one-on-one correlation with Earth, the real planet we really live on, and its documented real history.
June 6, 2019 10:44 a.m.
I think a return to Kamigawa is even less likely now than it was in 2017 due to the ever-increasing role Magic has in Hasbro's portfolio. As things stand, Hasbro has had a rough couple years, largely due to the collapse of the retail industry and giants like Toys R Us.
Magic, however, has been thriving, and saw significant gains throughout 2018 across digital and paper products. Based on recent financial statements, it's pretty clear Hasbro is banking on Magic as one of its flagship products, to offset slumps in other areas of its portfolio.
MaRo's concern--that he can't go to his bosses and say "let's revisit a set that was a commercial failure"--is arguably more powerful today than it was in 2017. There needs to be some good reason to show Hasbro and the other marketing team that Kamigawa will not simply repeat the sales failure of its past.
That said, Magic is about to branch into new media--television. I think they could use the upcoming Magic TV show to spark some interest in Kamigawa as a plane. Then MaRo could go to the marketting team with "Kamigawa seems to be doing pretty well on the show so we can expect it to be popular among potential players, and I think we can fix the design issues from the previous iteration." That's a pretty strong position, and one I think Hasbro and Wizards could buy.
ZendikariWol - I'd like to nominate Advisor as a creature type that should be heavily supported in any Norse-inspired plane. While the Norse are traditionally painted as barbarians, that image does not really reflect the reality. It's often forgotten that the oldest existent democratic institution was created by the Norse, and that the Norse people held lawyers with the same level of regard as their warriors.
what if the four classical elements were the guiding forces of a world?
That's the Last Airbender. I'd love this as an idea, as it would be pretty neat to see Magic's 5-colour mana system as interpreted in a plane with a 4-colour syste,
What if the world was a cave system with no outside?
That's D&D's Underdark. Which is a great location full of some extremely interesting creatures, such as Aboleths, Drow, Ilithids, and Beholders. I'm 100% behind this idea.
What if you could only get to a section o a plane while you're sleeping, and it's actually created by lucid dreaming?
That's Wheel of Time's Tel'aran'rhiod. I'd be pretty happy with this plane as well, and think some very interesting mechanics could be created to create a surreal atmosphere.
To add two other fantasy worlds that would be pretty interesting:
Garth Nix's Seven Towers has a fascinating world where shadows are evil. Since shadows cannot exist without light, light is therefore evil as well, and darkness is embraced as salvation.
Asimov's The Gods Themselves tells the tale of a dimension where its energy is being siphoned away to fuel the energy of a different world. A similar idea, where one plane is sapping the mana of another, could be really interesting in Magic.
June 6, 2019 11:21 a.m.
the four elements is probably culturally bound within the greek philosphers who created it.
and there's already 5 "elements" in magic, so it'd be confusing.
I think that a "multiverse" plot could be interesting where we see all the ramdom other planes kind of pushed into 1-2 sets ... sort of like "and here's 5 things from shandalar" etc. all those things in planechase could get expanded on
June 6, 2019 12:03 p.m.
if there was a planechase set, i'd want it to be a watermark set.
like each plane had its own watermark and certain spells were stronger if cast there. it'd be kid of parasitic, but it'd be more for flavor.
June 6, 2019 12:12 p.m.
cdkime A huge yes to the Seven Towers. And I was thinking Inception for the dream world; I haven't gotten to any of the Wheel of Time series. Sounds like the same sort of inspiration, though. The Underdark and Avatar ones were my inspiration for those first two.
Funkydiscogod I did think about that, but there's also Squall , Honden of Cleansing Fire , Desert Twister , Torment of Hailfire , Dirtwater Wraith ...
June 6, 2019 12:36 p.m.
i even loosely based the norse factions around countries
jor- england liches- sami shamanism fae- ireland orcs- norse wyrmkin- lithuania
June 6, 2019 4:02 p.m.
gupp7 I didn't notice that before, but they do match up well. Your description mentions possible blending of the tribes/colors--how do you think that would be executed?
June 6, 2019 4:12 p.m.
i think "domain" would be a good fit. ravnica has a lot of two color synergies, and sometimes it gets 3, so i think there could be something to reward that sort of thing.
June 6, 2019 5:39 p.m.
Domain alsp gives a feeling of conquering/exploring new lands, which i like.
June 7, 2019 4:24 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #33
I definitely would like to see a return to Alara, although it likely would be a single set, since there likely is not sufficient material for two or three sets.
I also would very much like for the game to return to Kamigawa, but the chances of that occurring are very minuscule, unfortunately because of how poorly the original block was received, but I still am hoping that the fact that each set is a stand-alone set could allow for a single set on that plane.
Now that this game has had a plane modeled after ancient Greece (Theros) and a plane modeled after ancient Egypt (Amonkhet), I am hoping for a plane modeled after Norway/Scandinavia, because I always have been fond of Norse mythology, in addition to Greek and Egyptian mythology.
Mark Rosewater has said that the autumn set for this year is a set that he has been attempting to make for over a decade, and that he is very excited about it, but, if it has taken him a decade to make it, there must surely be a reason for that, so I am wary of it, since I question the quality of a product that has been in development for that long (with other prominent examples being Chinese Democracy by Guns 'n' Roses or Duke Nukem Forever).
June 9, 2019 5:56 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #34
Well, DemonDragonJ, I am building Return to Alara, and I like what I’ve done with the place. Block 1 is the introduction of New Alara, where Alara has settled and is now markedly more homogenized than ever before. Like the first set introducing any new plane (except the last few because plot) it’s all about giving the players a feel for it... before I shake things up.
In block 2, the peace falls to ruin. See, the remains of Bant and Esper formed New Akrasa, and it was a growing bastion housing most of civilized life. And then the Esper Loyalists make their stand. The ranks of New Akrasa are split into two- with many not knowing where to go in the conflict. The angels say that the Esperites were blasphemers anyway, and a lot of Bant can see that. Many can see the value of their point of view, but the flaws are also readily apparent.
At the same time the Esperites rebel, the Naya are starting to form civilizations based on the creatures or aspects of creatures they worship. They use it as a unifying force to bind the group together.
At the same time, and to be fair, long beforehand, demon cults are starting to pop up, most utilizing undead as cheap servitude.
So basically, block 1 is New Alara, and block 2 is back to the old... just with a slightly different perspective.
June 10, 2019 12:52 a.m.
i think he said that he wanted to do the set for ten years, not that it's been in development that long.
the other idea i heard kicking around was a magic western.
im not sure how on board with the idea i am.
the main problem i see is sales. western genre things are largely in decline.
after that... what even defines a western plane? usually they take place in the southeweste or midwest, where it is just simply a barren desert.
they tend to emphasize the harshness and desolate nature. we just had amonkhet for most of those tropes.
instead of a true western, it could be a native american themed block.
things like thunderbirds, skins walkers, and other native legends could finally get some representation.
June 10, 2019 7:58 p.m.
anyway, here's some ideas for new mechanics:
ice liches: frozen - when a premanent becomes frozen, tap it. it doesn't untap during it's controller's untap step.
jor: toughness matters
fae : glamour - when this becomes the target of a spell or ability, you may pay 2. if you do, copy it and choose new targets.
orcs- pillage- when this deals combat damage to a player, you may add colorless mana equal to the damage dealt.
wyrmkin- when this is dealt damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it
June 16, 2019 1:29 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #37
Problems with that are... numerous, gupp7.
Frozen: This one isn’t mechanically hard to grasp but it would need some sort of counter. It also may create a bit of snow confusion- especially if the two mechanics appear in the same set. The biggest problem with this, however, is how oppressive and unpleasant this mechanic feels. What screams fun more than having your permanents taken out of commission in a punishingly permanent fashion? Literally anything, short of lantern control.
Toughness Matters: Oh boy. First of all, the competitive crowd would NOT be happy with that. It would probably go over even worse than power-based mechanics. In fact, let’s take a look at power-based mechanics as a comparison. What was the least popular of Alara’s shards? Naya. Ferocious is at a 6 on the storm scale, even though the development team is fine with it and it plays well, it was wildly unpopular. Formidable is a 9 for the same reason. I can’t imagine toughness would fare better.
Glamour: This seems derivative of Heroic, but more capacity to be broken and it’s been done a lot more. There are a ton of creatures that copy spells, and none of them make anyone think “this should be a keyword”. I don’t know that anyone thinks it should. So what if the fae interacted with instants and sorceries in a different way. Maybe some of them only copy spells cast by you, maybe some copy spells cast by opponents, or spells of a given color, maybe one bounces itself when targeted, or draws you a card? What I’m saying is there’s more to be explored with this mechanic, but as is it doesn’t feel like it needs to be a keyword. It feels like one creature, not an entire faction.
Pillage: Dear sweet, merciful God, this would be broken. SO broken. Just use raid, for fuck’s sake, don’t turn all your creatures into Neheb, the Eternal ! There’s a reason he’s 5 mana and a mythic rare legendary creature!! So you can’t have more than 1 and won’t get him in draft, is why! The amount of mana this ability would generate is legitimately bat-shit crazy. And bat-shit crazy amounts of mana often leads to doing things that shouldn’t be done until many, many turns down the line. If I deal 4 damage with a Pillage creature on turn 4, I can play Ulamog's Crusher . Do you understand how crazy that is?? These creatures would have to be so weak for their mana cost that they would be unplayable if they were to be balanced. No thank you.
Wyrmkin: So this is literally just a narrower version of Enrage. Was it intended that way? Because if so, no one’s gonna play it. Enrage is already not a particularly strong mechanic, you do NOT need to water it down more.
June 16, 2019 8:26 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #38
That, Funkydiscogod, is because Sakiko 1) was printed in the vastly overlooked Kamigawa set. 2) is 6 mana. 3) is a 3/3 for 6 mana- meaning she dies to anything stronger than a Shock .
Mark of Sakiko is a 2-mana enchantment right? So what would it cost to put that enchantment on a LOT of creatures? How would you adequately cost them? That ability was strong enough to cost 2 mana without the body, would a 3-mana 2/2 be appropriate? Cuz that’s a pathetic body and will be blocked into oblivion. But, any larger and the casual circles would just be Pillage mirror matches. A 3/3 for 3 that generates mana when it damages a player? Competitive? No. But in circles with a lower average power level this would rule the world.
June 16, 2019 9:55 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #39
I was going to bring up the whole pump spell = ritual thing but I felt like I’d talked too much already.
June 17, 2019 2:33 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #40
So I see that the conversation has twisted and turned since the beginning of this thread, but I'd just like to comment on the initial post. I am pretty convinced the next new plane will be Kaldheim and it will have a norse mythology theme.
The fact that Modern Horizons included such a heavy emphasis on snow permanents tipped the scale for me. Yes all of those cards skip standard, but what MH really did was put basic snow lands back into circulation. The only logical reason I could see WotC doing that is to prepare for a snow themed set. They wouldn't do it in a Core set because thats not how Core sets operate, but a supplemental set could pull it off. Now I guess there isn't a requirement that a norse themed set must have snow mechanics, but it seems like a perfect fit.
I don't see it being very tribal, but the OP forgot about Jotünn (frost giants) as a potential tribe. Personally I think the set would be more mechanically driven though.
Sagas would be an awesome addition since most history in ancient nordic societies was passed down verbally through stories (I think).
I don't think it would be multicolored since Ravnica is still so fresh. In fact I could see it going the opposite route and be strongly mono-colored.
Also, and this is just my personal hunch, a norse mythology themed set seems like a perfect place to reintroduce a long missing inter-planar huntsmen does it not?
June 21, 2019 2:04 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #41
I'd love a Wedge Set/Block. But I don't see it happening any time soon. I really need more options for commanders tbh.
Gidgetimer says... #2
Being as the next set is a core set, I think that is all too complicated. Maybe the fall set though.
June 5, 2019 3:55 p.m.