Thoughts on Mutate?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on April 7, 2020, 9:30 a.m. by abby315
Now that we've seen a lot of Mutate cards spoiled - including some very pushed ones like the Apex predators - and we know how the rules work, what do you all think about Mutate in Standard/60-card Magic?
I've seen a lot of comparisons to Bestow. However, now that we know that removal/bounce (but not flicker) effects destroy the whole pile of creatures, I think it's more like a fixed/better Emerge. You're pretty much sacrificing your access to the lower creatures in return for a low-cost Big Creature with Good Effect. It's slightly worse because the Mutate triggers are not cast triggers and can be Stifled by removal, but I think that's balanced by the ability to stack Mutate abilities. Also, the Mutate creature still enters the battlefield.
Therefore, similar to Emerge, I expect only the most powerful Mutate creatures to see play, similar to Elder Deep-Fiend. Does anyone think a dedicated Mutate deck will be good?
I wanted to try a 5c mutate deck, and I tried twice. I did as much as I could, but...
It's just not fantastic. It's color-intensive, and the Apexes(pl?) don't help here. The abilities are too scattered to have any real focus other than mutate. Worse still, the CMC average is higher than 4. It'll take time for the ball to get rolling, and perhaps by then you'd have to face the odds.
I'm strictly speaking from an EDH perspective, so excuse my ignorance of the other formats. I'm just going to keep the C20 precon untouched (like with all the others) and call it a day. At least that deck had most of the necessary pieces.
April 7, 2020 10:28 a.m.
I feel like mutate won’t pick up very well since there is a lot of creature removal and just better stuff existing in standard. Looking at the existing cards already most mutate creatures have their ability cost 4+ mana and really only provide keywords or bonuses that really don’t outweigh having your resources pretty much taken out by two for the price of one removal spell.
As said earlier the octopus is probably the best mutate card and I don’t think it’ll actually be used for its mutate ability. The simic flash decks are going to drop it in since it can draw them a card when it attacks.
April 7, 2020 10:30 a.m.
I think more mutate cards will be useful than just the octopus, but there still isn't going to be a viable mutate deck, in standard or otherwise.
April 7, 2020 11:16 a.m.
I like mutate as a mechanic: its interesting, promotes building around it and has some interesting cards so far (for example, Dirge Bat). But the issue is that mutate costs are really mana intensive. I could see a GUR mutate deck potentially if there wasnt that strong of removal around right now, but otherwise we need some creatures with way lower mutate costs to use.
April 7, 2020 11:28 a.m.
dbpunk most mutate costs feel doable! Far more affordable than bestow, anyway.
I like the mechanic but overall it feels like it is simply covering its bases right now. Naturalize effect, terror effect, etc. Nothing truly interesting for the most part. A lot of utility, not a lot of dazzle.
April 7, 2020 3:34 p.m.
While I agree that the possibility of a two-for-one makes them tough to swallow, I also feel like they have extreme snowball potential - especially since you can start stacking Mutate triggers on Mutate triggers. I wonder if having Hexproof "base" creatures, or efficient counterspells like Keep Safe will be good enough to make a deck that stacks very powerful Mutate effects work.
Paeldroth I definitely feel that! But I feel like stacking them is where the real fun is supposed to begin.
My first thoughts are to take the Apex predators, play them for their regular cost - which is fairly well-costed - and then mutate them with cheap mutate effects, like Sea-Dasher Octopus and Gemrazer to power out their triggers. Seems best in a Temur shell.
I admit I'm a bit of a Vorthos so I really /want/ it to work, but I do expect most won't. :P
April 7, 2020 3:58 p.m.
Mutate as a dedicated effect seems difficult at best. I do like that they work well enough as a one-of in many other decks without dedication required... If only their base abilities necessitated more splash play. Mostly only the ones have had the kinds of bodies & abilities combined with sweet removal effects to think about using. I mean there are plenty of uses for me where I am cool with mutating Trample, reach & destroy artifact/enchantment onto a creature or 6/6 trample & beast within as a one-of is pretty great, & I could stomach doing this once with say.. A commander, but yeah there probably needs to be less underwhelming one-off effects combined with desirable staple-on abilities... & there just aren't many of those to get past that 2-for-1 concern right now.
April 7, 2020 8:06 p.m.
Magnanimous says... #11
I think people should see it as a tribe.
The best mutate cards can be in great decks, but it's mainly meant as a fun mechanic that leads to some really fun and janky decks. It has the same pros ("lords") and cons (removal) that tribes have, but with a twist.
BTW, I absolutely love mutate and how WotC handled it (even though I don't like most newer cards/mechanics).
April 7, 2020 9:07 p.m.
The biggest issue with the mechanic is how parasitic it is - the only value comes from being able to trigger mutate abilities more than once. however, you can only do that in a highly dedicated mutate deck. So, for example, there is no need to play Gemrazer when, if the monster you mutate onto is killed, you get a vanilla creature. Much easier and better is to play a simple Reclamation Sage.
April 8, 2020 7:43 a.m.
Magnanimous says... #13
TypicalTimmy I disagree on all points.
While the size of the card pool may be a problem, I think that with a design this different, future sets will use it and the card pool will expand over time.
This does have mechanical similarities to Bestow especially, but I see this as a better and more engaging form of the mechanics you mentioned. I like that players can choose which creature is on top, that they can change the color/type/subtype/CMC of a creature to mess with interactions with Fatal Push, Smite the Monstrous, and Go for the Throat. I like that mutating a creature can make it weaker if you choose to put a card with lower power/toughness on top for whatever reason. Also the optics and feeling of 'mutating' a creature to survive is much more fun than making it wear more clothes.
So I don't have much experience with player tantrums, but my thoughts on this are that it's pretty clear what the card is/does except for the power/toughness and if you're actively trying to cheat (very possible for younger players). The top card shows the name/CMC/type... and all the abilities are placed below as if they were one giant card. The power/toughness confusion comes because p/t is at the bottom so some really new players may believe that you can choose or add p/t or it's taken from the bottom card, but the reminder text is pretty clear that only the abilities stack.
Overall, I think they're being conservative with the ability and would love to see 1 - 2 CMC mutate costs on Flash creatures in the future. On comparing it to Meld/Bestow: it's more fun than bestow and meld never worked because it was a 2 card combo with ok upside.
April 8, 2020 8:51 a.m.
Magnanimous says... #14
Boza Yeah, I'm scared that this is really all we're going to get. I really want 1-3 CMC mutate costs with Flash so I could use some in a delver style deck or a deck with some janky color/creature type combos.
April 8, 2020 8:59 a.m.
Like I said, there are uses for stapling Reach, trample, onto a creature (basically an aura) & having a decent 1-off ability with destroy artifact/enchantment, like Gemrazer -- in some decks this actually works ok as a 1-off, without needing a heavy mutate dedication. And I love that mutate, as a 1-off mechanic, could be pretty good in theory. From what I am seeing though, they went with more incremental mutate effects and as TypicalTimmy says: cardpool is too limited for that. Mutate would have been FAR better if not designed as a little mini-synergy "tribe". It could be so much better (coincidentally) if it was designed more as a Timmy mechanic, with more cards designed to EXPECT more 1-off mutate & if you manage 2 mutate triggers or more then that is just gravy (but not expected). I don't understand why they went halfway in with the Timmy strategy & made a mechanic that should be functionally Timmy, instead pussyfooted into making it another attempted repetitive, value-engine synergy. My rant there, but mutate as I see it now is wasted potential..It should have been ALL-IN on Timmy one-off values, then it would slot into SO MANY 99's out there.
April 8, 2020 9:01 a.m.
In many ways Boza has a more paraphrased detail of what I am saying.
April 8, 2020 9:04 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #17
The mechanic is easy to understand for me personally, and I think it's rather fun. I probably will build a modern mutate deck, and play a few games on MTGo. I think Mutate has potential, many of the cards probably could have had better abilities though. I don't think Mutate needs as much decdication to the theme as you might assume, the prototype for my said modern deck conatins only 13 creatures with mutate. Compare that to tribal decks, almost every card in your deck needs to contribute to the theme, but mutate (too me) seems more like snow turned out to be: A vaule package you can slot into almost any deck.
April 8, 2020 12:17 p.m.
I think itll do well in EDH honestly, or at least a few cards will. Like every EDH has a few nonhuman creatures that you can mutate on to, and with three or four mutate cards, you can still generate enough value to use them. Plus some, like Gemrazer effectively will be the same as running a bigger Reclamation Sage in some decks.
April 8, 2020 12:50 p.m.
Sure, a few green mutate effects can be corner case "good in the 99" which I really do like. It is these numerous little piddly recursion types of mutations that they went in on that feel like a poor design paradox. I also could make an argument that, like Gemrazer, Fang Breaker has enough staple-on ability with trample & Beast Within to be quite runnable in many-a-99. Again, I wish there were a few more mutate creatures with that same Timmy, justified as a one-off in the 99... that is where "mutate" could have made this a set for the ages.
April 8, 2020 9:59 p.m.
I guess it is called Sawtusk Demolisher... The beast within + trample addition can be justified as a one-off as well.
April 8, 2020 11:35 p.m.
Honestly like that, Sea-Dasher Octopus, Lore Drakkis, Boneyard Lurker and Necropanther all seem like they'll be solid one offs, in addition to the already mentioned ones. Souvenir Snatcher, Cubwarden, Dirge Bat and Mindleecher might see some play in more dedicated mutate decks or in decks that care deeply about their express abilities.
April 9, 2020 2:33 a.m.
Several of those examples don't staple a useful ability/improve the creature + provide a one-off benefit though. Maybe the snatcher gives flying & does something (expensive but useful) the leecher does do that as well. For the most part those effects are the little (high synergy needed) junk that don't hold water in comparison to just playing a similar or better instant without requiring another creature to trigger. To me, they should all: A) Add an improving keyword ability B) provide a useful one-off, otherwise they will need to be in some dedicated deck... Which is a big missed opportunity as this ability could have made for more Timmy staples. It COULD have been like flashback, where tons of decks (not just GY or flashback decks) would utilize them. It would have been fine in other formats. It would have been in line with the supposed theme of the set.
April 9, 2020 8:34 a.m.
Magnanimous says... #23
Gleeock idk, I think you're looking at this wrong. If you have cheap creatures in a deck already, then mutating them for cheap gives you a cheap threat that comes with some sort of valuable ability. In a deck that runs enough mutate creatures, you could also make the choice to mutate onto an already mutated creatures for those lovely triggers at the cost of additional pressure.
A spell heavy deck that plays cheap creatures like Ornithopter or Krenko's Command with Sea-Dasher Octopus and Lore Drakkis could work nicely. Another angle in the same vein is Faeries. You play Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, Faerie Miscreant and then ninja in the mutate creatures. Also a B/W midrange deck with Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, and Necropanther would be cool, and you could even go Esper to get access to the other mutate creatures. Think of an Abzan deck with Sawtusk Demolisher and tokens. That's a 4 CMC 6/6 Trampler AND a Beast Within.
April 9, 2020 8:56 a.m.
I agree on Sawtusk Demolisher particularly because it meets the 2 conditions unique to "mutate", but otherwise feel that you are giving more examples of dedicated decks & niche value engine strategies. How much is the Octopus improving the creature?... Mutate a 1/1 into a 2/2? + Give a creature Pseudo-Curiosity IF there is a creature on the field already, or play another dmg to draw creature at 3cmc, which blue already has a bunch of? As a one-off in the random 99 there are quite a few better options. Same with panther: run a mostly inferior return to battlefield effect IF you already have a creature out & you aren't adding much body with that mutate, you also aren't adding a keyword or really anything all that unique to the "mutate" mechanic. The repetition angle is somewhat unique to "mutate" but that garbage requires dedication or some recursion engine.
April 9, 2020 9:27 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #25
As a Pioneer Player,
Mutate makes me sad.
There's a couple specific cards that might be playable in very specific builds, but...
Sea-Dasher Octopus is just Curious Obsession that might also be a flash Stealer of Secrets. I don't know if that's very good. Bonecrusher Giant is okay because it goes well with every red strategy... but this goes in Devotion. Or tempo, which is just devo without Master of Waves.
Gemrazer might be a nicer Reclamation Sage for things like Zoo, or other green aggro decks. I mean, Reach and Trample aren't useless abilities and it'd often be 1-2 points of extra power. So doing slightly more than Rec Sage, at least in aggressive decks, is solid. Also good in any deck that uses +1/+1 counters. It also stacks, so if you draw a second you can mutate the first and get two Naturalizes. Or 3 Naturalize effects for... and two cards, which I think is okay.
Both Gemrazer and Octo could work in an Evolve deck, especially because it uses +1/+1 counters extremely heavily.
Boza says... #2
No, a dedicated mutate deck will not work. Mutate in general is an ETB creature that has lower cost, but has a risk of being a vanilla creature once it enters the battlefield. There are very few mutate creatures that are worth it - the newly spoiled octopus.
Here are all the mutate cards currently spoiled:
all the mutate
Besides the octopus, which one is the best mutate card?
April 7, 2020 10:01 a.m.