Waste Not in M15
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on May 23, 2014, 12:11 a.m. by strateupjee
So I am pretty sure that it is confirmed that Waste Not will be printed in M15 right? My only question is what do you guys think of it? I can see it being a big way to reinvent MBD when we lose all the RTR block staples. Suddenly Mind Rot turn 3 after dropping Waste Not turn 2 doesn't seem so bad, and in Modern with Lilliana? Did she just get even better? Damn it all! Haha
I cannot wait to use it in a Dimir deck. Lots of discard paired with bouncing permanents back to their owner's hand. And if I am not mistaken Soul Ransom will still be Standard playable
May 23, 2014 12:18 a.m.
The Doctor says... #5
I could see Mono black discard being a thing.
Brain Maggot , Thoughtseize , Duress , Shrieking Affliction , and Waste Not.
May 23, 2014 12:20 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #6
I am playing black in the M15 core season for sure. Sweet Sweet Hand Hate Dominate DADDYS COMING HOME! Thats all I have to saay about thaaat. M15 is like a box of chocolate..you never know what your going to geee-aat lol
May 23, 2014 12:22 a.m.
strateupjee says... #7
Haha I wouldn't even worry about Affliction or Brain Maggot. I would run TS, Duress, and Mind Rot, and just pick and choose how you want to play, Duress is really good when Waste Not adds "... then draw a card" to the end of it haha
May 23, 2014 12:22 a.m.
I can't wait for it. Definitely an auto include in my 8Rack for modern.
May 23, 2014 1:31 a.m.
asasinater13 says... #10
a lot of discard spells are sorcery speed, I could see Master of the Feast becoming a staple to make sure opponents have a hand to take from. in a dimir build Siren of the Silent Song comes in, potentially with Ordeal of Erebos on either of those creatures. Ashiok's Adept is also nice to note, but there are a lack of heroic triggers worth playing in this type of deck.
May 23, 2014 1:32 a.m.
Why would you ever want to give your opponent cards to keep them discarding? If your opponent is down to zero cards, mission accomplished.
lol
May 23, 2014 1:34 a.m.
asasinater13 says... #13
benefitting from waste not, using the demon to fuel zombie tokens, mana, and card draw could work if there's a way to consistently cause a discard, we don't have one right now but we have yet to see all of m15 and khans of Tarkir will also happen while waste not is going on.
also using a turn 2 waste not, turn three Master of the Feast , turn four Tormented Thoughts would be really satisfying
May 23, 2014 1:38 a.m.
We had a discussion about it before and me and a few others decided that it was pretty bad in modern. I can't remember if it was APPLE01DOJ or Jp3ngu1nb0y who had proxied a few for testing and found them awfully placed on the curve. I tend to agree. Early game for modern 8rack is essential for disruption - so you don't actually want to drop waste not on T2, you want to force discard. This means you want to drop it late but if you do that they won't have much left in hand to be discarded anyway. Problem.
May 23, 2014 4:19 a.m.
I'm not really sure why you can't drop it t2 or t3? I mean it will obviously depend on what deck you're facing, but t1 Inquisition of Kozilek followed by t2 Thoughtseize and Raven's Crime (or some other discard spell) followed by something like t3 Waste Not and a discard spell, and then t4 and Liliana of the Veil sounds pretty solid to me.
May 23, 2014 4:56 a.m.
It really does depend on the deck. It's purely that dropping waste not for 2 mana most likely means they get to keep 2 cards in hand considering that Crime or Seize or IOK are all 1 mana.
Is that significant? Maybe it is.
I mean most decks are going to stick on a 2 land hand with 5 spells. If they stick with more lands then that's like Christmas come early. If you force them to discard 3 Cards by T2 then they'll have lost nearly half of their 8 cards (initial hand of 7 + 1 draw, assuming you go first). In the early game they'll most likely discard spells because discarding land in the early stages is a bad idea. By that count you've forced them to discard 3 out of either 5 or 6 spells. That leaves them in a tricky spot.
If you drop waste not T2 you've let them keep 2 cards - in this case it's most likely they've only discarded one card (the T1 play). This makes it far more likely that they'll have plays. A proper 8rack deck is using barely any killspells (very, very few) because they assume that the opponent has next to nothing in hand - and therefore really does not want to miss out on that two card opportunity. It just means that you've had very little impact on the board. Remember that the most successful 8rack decks are proactive, NOT reactive. You want to be like an aggro deck - forcing discard extremely fast in the early stages. Putting waste not in 8rack is like putting an enchantment that doubles your damage into an aggro deck - it's good but do you want that loss of tempo? Most would say no.
Thats T2. If you consider your example of T3, then you're pushing Liliana back which is never a good idea. I would MUCH rather drop a liliana T3 than waste not. Liliana is infinitely more terrifying the earlier you use her.
It's just that there's no optimal time for an 8rack deck to use waste not. If you play it T2 you miss out on forcing them to discard two cards which is very significant when they can only have 8 cards in hand maximum. If you drop it T3 you're pushing back a potential wincon, or at least - a planeswalker than can cause the opponent to concede. If you play it T4 then you miss out on your real wincons - affliction or rack, which you want to power out with a few discard spells at about that time.
So theres a problem.
May 23, 2014 5:21 a.m.
strateupjee says... #18
That being said, Waste Not makes each and every discard spell you play (and Lilliana +1's) better. Each one gets an added line of text at the bottom of the card saying GAS. You get a creature, make a Zombie. You hit a non land/non creature, draw a card (optimally more discard spells). And if you somehow hit a land, accelerate... Yes I know that Modern is a very right format, but I could see this card being played. I, on the other hand, am gonna play this card with extreme prejudice and ruin people's days haha.
May 23, 2014 9:22 a.m.
I can see this in standard. Not a shadow of a doubt. Easy. Not in modern - it's too slow.
May 23, 2014 9:24 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #20
I'm the one with the Waste Not proxies...
Okay, for any one that thinks this card is worth running, are you running Liliana's Caress or Megrim ? It triggers the same as those cards which most 8Rack decks don't run.
I tested it in 8Rack & Perxy Pox. So kmcree the actual play it was competing with was T2 Smallpox .
The problem with it in 8Rack is that people hold onto their lands and and a late game extra piece of mana is next to useless for 8Rack.
In Percy Pox it could be pretty nuts, especially when stacked with a Liliana of the Veil on the board, but it competes with other valuable slots and has very little effect on the actual game. I decided to drop it in favor of Sword of Fire and Ice which does a lot more to further my game plan than Waste Not.
I feel the 2 decks that could support it are a full out Legacy style Pox build or Mill.
That being said, I expect it to wreck shop in standard.
May 23, 2014 11:30 a.m.
strateupjee says... #21
I am pre-ordering a playset as soon as I can for Standard haha
May 23, 2014 12:41 p.m.
ChiefBell and APPLE01DOJ: Those are actually very interesting analyses. I definitely see how its conflicting for spots. It just seems to me that it could find a home, because it makes all of your discards so much stronger. As zandl said, for 8Rack its almost a t2 Primeval Bounty . Personally, I don't run Smallpox in my build, partially because I'm saving the spot for Waste Not, but also because I only run 19 lands, and having to sac one can be a killer. I can see it not fitting particularly well in a straight up 8Rack build, but I think if you tweak the build slightly to accommodate Waste Not, you could end up with something very potent.
May 23, 2014 3:21 p.m.
I could definitely see it working somehow. The discard deck you have on your profile, for example, runs more killspells - so it could definitely afford to have a turn where it's not forcing discard. If you have a more reactive, slower style then sure - could work.
May 23, 2014 3:31 p.m.
strateupjee says... #24
Anyone have any idea what Waste Not will pre-sell for? How hyped up is it? How many people want to play it?
May 27, 2014 12:39 a.m.
Regarding ChiefBell's analysis in Page 1, Post 16.
I like how you've described, in detail, the reasons why this card may have limited playability. The one thing you may be overlooking is that you will be playing Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek on T1, thereby letting you know what they have in hand. You will know if they have a viable 2 drop that is a threat to you (minus the 1 unknown draw).
If they have a threat, take care of it first. Otherwise, spend the turn to drop this and on T3 everything you do is a bonus. - They discard land, you play another discard effect... otherwise you have creatures (negating or slowing most early creature based threats) or more cards (thus more discard).
Using things like Small Pox and Liliana of the Veil , you have a number of cards that can do both discard and removal. These can easily make allowing early plays acceptable and manageable.
May 27, 2014 8:06 a.m.
i can see this in legacy pox, get creatures, mana, and more cards.
May 27, 2014 9:51 a.m.
CaptainCaveman says... #27
Think Tormented Thoughts will see play because of it?
June 11, 2014 10:17 p.m.
strateupjee says... #28
It's possible, once you make a zombie with Waste Not, Thoughts becomes Mind Rot haha
zandl says... #2
I'm very curious to see if this card actually has Modern potential or will just be too gimmicky.
Pre-rotation, though, we have a lot of discard tools already. Maybe MBD will just run this (since it's 2 devotion on its own) and then 4 Thoughtseize and 3-4 Duress main, since Duress is solid against most decks anyways?
May 23, 2014 12:14 a.m.