We Need a New Lhurgoyf
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on March 19, 2015, 7:27 a.m. by OutspokenFerret
Seriously, I love those Lizard Bear Tree... things. They are flipping amazing and they could add a Zombie Lhurgoyf that eats the graveyard to get bigger, like a Scavenging Ooze that's a Zombie Lizard Bear Tree and a Lhurgoyf that counters Tarmogoyf.
While I don't think goyf needs to be banned, I would be on board. The fact that almost every archetype either runs goyf or can run goyf (i.e. tarmotwin, tarmoffinity) is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.
That said, I honestly haven't played enough high-level Modern to have had to stare many down. None of the locals here can afford him, haha.
March 19, 2015 7:31 a.m.
OutspokenFerret says... #5
I think instead of banning it and sweeping it under the rug, they should tackle it from a counterplay perspective. For instance, if you exile all graveyards, then goyf is nothing. I've recently even been running a singleton Relic of Progenitus in my control lists for a while now that does wonders. I'm cautious to run more than one since it is likely too many, but since it cycles, the one is 100% fine and has won me a few games.
March 19, 2015 7:39 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #6
Correction: price does not equal ban worthy. Goyf is fine. Something needs to be the best at what that does. Being played on a massive scale also does not equal ban worthy, otherwise bolt gets the ban too. Scavenging Ooze itself is a good counter to goyf. People aren't entitled to whatever card they want just because they want it.
To OP: yes, some type of lhurgoyf would be fun, but wizards is more...aware to the mistakes like the tarmo variety. Even MaRo said Tarmogoyf was a mistake. It was supposed to be #/# but somewhere along the line someone thought it was supposed to be #/#+1 and mistakenly made it that way right before it went out and nobody had time to change it back. An anti-goyf with +1/ would be interesting since you would have to set it up, but it would have to be appropriately costed so it doesn't impact all the formats, unless that was the goal
March 19, 2015 7:42 a.m.
BlueEyesRedMage says... #7
Well OutspokenFerret, the thing about Lhurgoyfs is that they only ever care about graveyards, they never eat anything from it. There been a Llhurgoyf in ever colour, with 2 in red and 3 in green and every single one has cared about a different kind of "things in graveyards makes me bigger"
I could see a lhurgoyf that cares about creature cards in exile, effectively coupling it quite well with Scooze.
But a lhurgoyf that eats graveyards? That's not something they are known to do, in any of their incarnations.
March 19, 2015 7:54 a.m.
OutspokenFerret: The majority of decks that run Goyf don't care much about their graveyard. It's an ineffective way to go about things in competitive modern. Although running a 1-of is ok. Im usually more amused when peopel bring in like 4 copies against me because it just..... does nothing.
mathimus55 - There's a huge different between 'being the best at something' and being stiflingly effective. And no, slow, mana-intensive graveyard exile does not counter goyf. You shouldn't have the time or mana spare to exile cards other than creatures with Scooze, in tier 1 modern play. Goyf is played in decks WITH scooze. Goyf was played in decks with both scooze AND Deathrite Shaman. Trust me - those kinds of cards do nothing against goyf. He's currently run alongside delve from Taz. There's also a massive difference between a card that fulfills some criteria of suspect banworthy such as 'its expensive' and a card that fulfills ALL the criteria such as 'expensive, must have 4, there is nothing better'.
My solution to goyf would be to add errata that says it can't be bigger than a 3/4. Problem solved. He's stupid good as a two-drop, survives lightning bolt still, but will lose in combat to large 3-drops such as Loxodon Smiter.
As for a new card: I would like to see a blue version that counts all instants or something like that.
March 19, 2015 8:11 a.m.
OutspokenFerret says... #9
A Lizard Bear Tree's gotta eat. I was actually thinking of a Goyf that was based on cards in exile that had a way to exile cards.
Maybe as an anti-goyf a Lhurgoyf that costs 3 and gives Lhurgoyf's -0/-X where X is the number of card types in all graveyards but its own toughness is 9 (I forget how many card types you can have so that number may be off) and its power is based on colors in graveyard. So usually you would have a Sorcery (Thoughtsieze), whatever was Thoughtsiezed(for this sake a Creature), a land(fetches), and an Instant(Lightning Bolt or some form of draw/removal) making it a 3-4/5 and reducing Tarmogoyf to a 4/1.
March 19, 2015 8:12 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #12
A delve Goyf for 4G that cared about creatures in the exile zone could be fun.
Alas, we've gone past delve now.
March 19, 2015 9:20 a.m.
wrong, they should reprint goyf in uncommon slot. Problem solved.
March 19, 2015 10:12 a.m.
WovenNebula says... #14
Tarmo is fine and will probably be obsolete as a creature in another ten years as creatures have been creeping in power every year. It'll become similar to what happened to Juzam Djinn by then.
March 19, 2015 10:31 a.m.
Tarmogoyf is easy to remove from the board ... And it's only a threat early game ... the only problem is "the mana cost" ...
WoC had admitted that "they never create a thing like Tarmogoyf again", they was drunk and it was create to be a Unglued card not a regular one ...
The card who have to be ban is Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf is a over evaluate card and threat ...
March 19, 2015 11:27 a.m.
WovenNebula : They can't really keep printing creatures that cost less than removal spells or they essentially wipe out control. OR they need to print more 1 mana removal for modern.
March 19, 2015 11:56 a.m.
WovenNebula says... #17
@ChiefBell it just seems like they are killing control as we speak. From 4 mana sweepers to 5, it'd make more sense to keep the sweepers at 4 since the creatures these days are a lot more efficient. Sadly the player base doesn't like to play against control and that may play a role WoTC decisions. A lot of the enviroments of mtg have become essentially attack and block. Just comparing the almost 20 years I have been playing, from my perspective.
March 19, 2015 12:26 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #18
WovenNebula: I wouldn't say they're killing control. They're shifting it. I read an article(I can't remember where, SCG maybe?) that guessed the big reason people think control is dead in modern is because they're shifting the default control color from blue to black which is why people assume control is dead. They also just printed the best wrath in Supreme Verdict not too long ago. I think traditional control is weaker right now but control decks are just playing different colors and less counter spells than people think a control deck should. The blue decks are going the combo/tempo route instead of dedicated control.
March 19, 2015 12:44 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #19
I should of rephrased it as True Control, the counters these days are either too slow, since almost every other spell especially creatures are efficiently costed, or they are just temporary solution and do not hard counter the card. I understand Supreme Verdict is what it is and I believe it shouldn't of been made, but I believe 4 cmc sweepers should of been left like that with the more efficient creatures we have today. I'm not a blue player, I actually enjoyed playing against old school control in a standard setting since it mixed the games up rather than playing against yet another creature inspired deck. I like the variety, that's why I primarily play other formats than standard as of now. Just my views...
March 19, 2015 12:59 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #20
For sure. I stay away from standard as well because at this point I don't have the time/effort to keep up with it. I don't think 5 mana sweepers for standard are bad since they're doing more than just wiping the board like End Hostilities killing equips too, which for EDH I actually prefer over Day of Judgment or Wrath of God. For legacy though you barely see any board wipes of that nature. Maybe an occasional verdict in miracles.
March 19, 2015 1:16 p.m.
OutspokenFerret says... #21
Standard is really diverse right now really. There is a deck of every archetype that is a contender for best deck. That may change with DTK but it seems to just add more and more variety to this format :D
March 19, 2015 1:55 p.m.
We do have mana leak though. We cant exactly have Counterspell in modern. We Lready have the pinnacle I think.
March 19, 2015 5:13 p.m.
wotc should stop trying to suppress the different formats and just let players run wild with their janky decks. bring back mana burn and land destruction win cons!
March 19, 2015 9:54 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #24
I would love to see Armageddon in modern. Didn't WoTC say the only reason it hasn't been reprinted is because players hate land destruction?
March 20, 2015 1:03 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #26
We have a new Lhurgoyf, it goes by the name of Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Before Tasigur we were given Scavenging Ooze.
March 20, 2015 10:16 p.m.
In no way do those cards resemble goyfs. Lhurgoyfs count cards in graveyards. Neither of those two cards do that.
March 21, 2015 6:17 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #28
I don't think we need Lhurgoyf, but we definitely need one of the old powerhouse cards. Explosive Vegetation does not count as a powerful card, DTK, we wanted better.
March 21, 2015 7:25 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #29
ChiefBell I make the comparison because both are creatures that can be very large in the early game based off of the graveyard.
March 21, 2015 11:08 a.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #30
Chiefbell is right. There needs to be a clause on how big goyf can get.
How about: Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1 if there is a creature card in a graveyard. The same is true for if there is a sorcery card or an instant card.
The phrasing would be similar to soulflayer or cairn wanderer. And by excluding lands, you make him smaller T2 in a fetch environment. He'd still frequently be a 3/4, but that seems fair for a 2 drop.
And I wonder about counterspell. Maybe it is what modern needs in order to create a more interactive environment.
March 21, 2015 4:37 p.m.
I don't think aggro is necessarily good enough yet to warrant a two mana hard counter. At the moment the meta is fairly diverse between combo, control, midrange, and aggro. We don't need to give combo and control that boost yet. It would have to happen if we had a ton of 1 or 2 mana creatures that won games like.... Stoneforge Mystic
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
Correction: Goyf needs to be banned. Problem solved.
March 19, 2015 7:29 a.m.