What theros block was missing?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on April 24, 2014, 12:27 a.m. by Rhinowarrior
What do you think the theros block was missing and what could it have had that would have made it complete? I personally am dissapointed that they did not have a legendary minotaur on the power level of brimaz.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #3
Why though? Could you explain your reasoning behind that?
April 24, 2014 12:32 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #4
I agree with sylvannos. Thoughtseize reprint was pretty cool, otherwise meh. I like Kiora, the Crashing Wave I guess.
The bottom-up sets tend to be better IMO. I'm all for flavor, but playability+balance+diversity are the big things I look for in cards.
April 24, 2014 12:34 a.m.
This block has pretty much no relevancy outside of standard. There's thoughtseize and that's about it. The whole block was designed to be much weaker than past expansions. It really shows. Outside of flavor, Theros straight-up blows.
I also really dislike what Devotion has done to standard. I really hate cards that don't interact with your opponent. This is even worse when they're the cards you win with. Gary, looking at you mate.
April 24, 2014 12:55 a.m.
unholycookies says... #6
I agree with TheDevicer. The cards lack power, the set promotes a bad play style, in my opinion, and I know they're trying to slow down the format, which might be my biggest problem, because I don't agree with it. I will admit to this all being my opinion and none of this proves a thing.
April 24, 2014 1:09 a.m.
They needed Academy Ruins for enchantments, I was really hoping for such a land :(
April 24, 2014 1:51 a.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #8
I was really hoping for an Enchantment Land. Maybe along the lines of Darksteel Citadel , where it's playable for exterior effects (Constellation today, Metalcraft for the Citadel), but not broken (like the colored ones. Seat of the Synod , Vault of Whispers , etc).
April 24, 2014 2:49 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #9
Theros is why I quit playing Standard! The block as a whole has great art and flavor, but it's too weak for my tastes. You could see the power level dwindling with Dragon's Maze and into Theros.
I'm not very enthusiastic about purchasing the chase rares to make a competitive deck, and most of which aren't playable outside of Standard. Most, not all...
I hope that with the next block, Standard can be somewhat like it was in Shards, Zendikar, Scars, and Innistrad.
April 24, 2014 3:35 a.m.
ShiroiBara says... #10
I was really hoping for an enchantment Phyrexian Metamorph :(
April 28, 2014 8:32 p.m.
thetechzombie says... #11
I don't get why everyone is complaining. Maybe the reason why I don't see eye to eye on most people here about theros being too weak is that I have only been playing since RTR came out, but that doesn't stop me from saying something. I dislike this idea that every set has to be as powerful or stronger than the set before. For a long time, I took a brake in actively playing my favorite card game, Yu-Gi-Oh, but I watched on the sideline and on youtube and I saw, and continue to see, the game become worse and worse due to rampant power creep. Eventually one set needs to be released that is far weaker than its predecessors or else Magic might become what I hate now about YGO. I personally like Theros. It's the first set that I have actively played at FNMs and it has been really fun. There are so many different decks that if finely tuned can be really good. The only beef that I had with theros is that it reprinted thoughtseize. Although it dramatically lowered the price, I hate seeing a turn one thoughtseize. It just ruins the match for me.
April 28, 2014 8:57 p.m.
rare scry lands shouldve been scry 2 imo, enchantment land wouldve been nice, legendary chromanticore!
April 28, 2014 9:18 p.m.
I was really hoping for some form of legendary lands that provide devotion and would tap for more mana when you have the required devotion. Something like, it adds 1 devotion to the appropriate color and will add 2 mana of the color when your devotion is over 7 for that color. The multicolored ones, if they would be considered, would add 1 devotion to one color or the other, and provide one of each mana at 10 devotion. All of them would either provide one mana of the appropriate color or 1 colorless until the devotion requirements would be reached.
April 28, 2014 10:39 p.m.
It's not that we must have insanely powerful cards all the time. Right now, it just sucks paying tons of money for Standard staples when you know most of them won't retain value post rotation. Buying RTR felt good because there were so many relevant cards for multiple formats. For the Theros block, outside of standard, we have Thoughtseize . That's basically it. It disincentivizes spending on Standard.
April 28, 2014 11:37 p.m.
Outside of just the theros set/block in general, standard is missing some key components anyways. I'll list them off.
-The ability to make a competitive deck downwards of $100
-Player interaction
-Deck differentiation
Making a competitive deck is never really an easy, $15 deal, but in standard, it's just gotten to the point where staples are always outrageously expensive and to build an FNM winning deck, you need to spend upwards of $500.
Player interaction has been almost non-existent in this format lately. The most player interaction happening is the guy across from you dissolving and downfalling every damn thing you play and then playing Jace for his -2. Btw, that guy is me. With Mechanics like Heroic and Devotion, it makes the game more about what you're doing, and what your board presence is, rather than what they're doing, and their board presence.
Lastly, how often do you see someone waltz in with an amazing simic deck and dominate FNM? You don't. The standard metagame is currently this:
-U/W/x Control
-Junk Reanimator
-Selesnya Aggro
-Bant Counter-Control
-Jund Monsters
-MUD, MBD, MGD, MRD
-Orzhov Midrange
And any other weird homebrews you see little kids walking around with. Honestly though, go to your local venue this friday and count how many times you play against or see someone playing this. I've gone to FNM's where I've played against 3 fucking selesnya decks, and 2 other control decks. I am not exempt from this claim though, I myself play Esper control. Because I'm one of those faggots. If you're offended by the word faggot, grow a pair.
April 29, 2014 12:48 a.m.
readerrw07 says... #16
I'm kinda wondering why we dont get Dual-Color Weapons. I mean cmon I wanna beat someone with the Tiki-Torch of Xenagos :3
April 29, 2014 3:52 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #17
Davik100 - When do I see somebody waltz in with Simic and win? Whenever I play Simic... although I suppose I cannot see myself so you get me there. Seriously I play Green/Blue or Red/Blue/Green most the time.
In all seriousness though, deck variation is actually pretty decent at the moment. You also forgot U/W heroic, superfriends(for those that actually have money) and Red Black control and Red Black aggro (yes these decks do freaking exist.) Eitherway that's 10 decks you yourself named. 10 main decks is pretty solid for a standard environment. Much more than I've seen before this block kicked in.
I'm with thetechzombie about the power creep concept. Wizards did what needed to be done. Sure it hurts a few peoples wallets but I enjoy standard and I actually like this set for standard. I don't care about chasing money cards, I win by abusing Prophet of Kruphix and making control, aggro and midrange players all cry simultaneously.
I will say that Gary is the most unblanced common though and I share resentment for that card. It took Fanatic and the white devotion one and combined them. How bloody unfair is that!? Personally I love how most the stuff in this set is conditional. Devotion requires the condition of devotion, most kill spells are conditional like must be tapped/must be enchantment/enchanted etc... I really like this concept, makes you think more about what to play and when to play it.
Also a lot of these cards are brilliant for EDH. The issue is a lot of people, like myself, aren't fans of EDH. Wizards cannot please everyone and I don't think they were trying to.
I really enjoy Theros as a block. What I thought was lacking though were more wolves. I wanted to abuse Raised By Wolves and as much as I enjoyed my Wolf Deck I never got it to top 8. :(
Also Karametra, why couldn't you be better!?
April 29, 2014 4:55 a.m.
I agree that most of theros block isn't going to be used in modern. But one thing we got from theros that's going to stick in modern is Devotion. We've seen a couple of green devotion decks go 4-0 on mtgo, and I imagine we will see some green devotion decks at the next major modern tournament. The archetype is still figuring itself out so it may not top 8 quite yet, but I think it has the possibility to be a strong deck.
April 29, 2014 10:26 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #19
Theros lackedsome form of punch. An, "oomph" factor. I'm going to disagree with the power creep argument though. Because standard rotates you don't have to worry as much about power creep. Now, I'm not sayiing Theros should have been like Innistrad, god no. But, it didn't have to be so paltry in comparison.
@ playingonabudget: I think Nyx Wave (as I've heard it called) is going to stay where it is. The deck can be super effective at times, but currently the modern metagame is unforgiving in its lack of consistency.
April 29, 2014 11:13 a.m.
You claim there is not enough Deck differentiation and then go on to list 6 type, each of which have variations within them (each devotion is fairly different). - And then you mention that people are playing home-brews, which can usually hold their own at the casually-competitive level.
There is more variation in Standard now than we have seen in quite some time. Most of these types have a fair amount of player interaction. - Not long ago, 8 out of 10 decks were Delver of Secrets Flip decks, with only a few minor variations among them... before that there was 'Caw-blade', running about 9 out of 10, and requiring bans to even have a playable meta.
I do agree that it would be nice to be able to make a more competitive deck for under $100... but the prices are set by how valued they are by players. If the card is competitive, people will pay more for it, so sellers charge more. This is unavoidable.
Funny, that the "high value" of cards and inability to make a deck under $100, actually contradicts the idea that there are no good cards... though I think that's a perception thing... people saying there are "no good cards" tend to be referring to long-term (after rotation) value... that, I feel, is somewhat of a limit of imagination. - Not every card in modern was played in modern the moment it was printed. Some cards will become playable after the production of future cards which interact with them, or when a new strategy/deck type is developed... not every card can be Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil , and be thrown into a large number of decks immediately.
April 29, 2014 11:15 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #21
@Rayenous Most blocks, in fact, DO have the Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil type cards. Example: Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil . In RTR we had Abrupt Decay , Deathrite Shaman , Sphinx's Revelation , shocks, etc. Scars had the Swords, Karn Liberated , fastlands, Wurmcoil Engine . Zendikar had fetches and Eldrazi. I could keep going. Theros ONLY had Thoughtseize .
And I think you're slightly oversimplifying past metas. Not long ago, when Delver of Secrets Flip decks were popular, there was also Jund Midrange, Junk Reanimator, American Control, Prime Speaker Bant, Wolf Run Ramp, and more. All of which had room for variations within the list, and were more fun and interactive than devotion decks.
Although you're right in saying CawBlade was pretty bad. Sometimes there are bad metas. IMO, Theros fits into that category. Devotion decks are all fairly similar, all U/W/X control decks fit into basically one category of Sphinx's Revelation , Orzhov Control is like Esper control, and then there are a bunch of midrange Monsters decks. Currently, that comprises most of the meta.
Source: I'm a sad combo player.
April 29, 2014 11:42 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #22
@ Rayenous as a Modern player I do look for long term cards, hell I have to. This isn't a limitation of my imagination, but a product of the format I play. I left Standard play because, by its nature, Standard is limiting. Theros lacks an immediate impact that other blocks before had. And I think that's what everyone is a little miffed at. There just isn't that "wow" factor.
April 29, 2014 12:06 p.m.
1st... I didn't say that some blocks don't have modern cards, only that not every card can be Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil .
2nd... there are a number of cards in the Theros block seeing some play in Modern. - To name a few:
Thoughtseize
- obvious, as it was in modern before Theros.
Sylvan Caryatid
Master of Waves
Chained to the Rocks
Courser of Kruphix
Thassa, God of the Sea
Soldier of the Pantheon
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Drown in Sorrow
Bile Blight
Searing Blood
Springleaf Drum
A number of the Scry lands.
Plus Spirit of the Labyrinth in Legacy...
And that's just looking at 2 of 3 sets in the block... and JOU appears to have more Modern discussion than the other 2 sets.
Sure, they aren't auto-includes in their deck colors... but as I said, not all cards can be Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil .... also, some of these are played more often than Sphinx's Revelation , as it is also only played in certain deck types, and is only a 1-2 of in those decks.
3rd... if you think I'm over simplifying the meta, you need to reconsider your evaluation of the different Devotion decks. They have very different play styles and win-cons.
Perhaps it was just my local Meta... but when Delver was out, that's all there was. You either played it, or made a deck specifically designed to beat it (and usually still lose). - Right now, there is no deck doing this. Out of the 16-20 regulars I play, only 3 deck types are duplicated. Most are quite different.
April 29, 2014 1 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #24
CanadianSamurai - I think this is where I fundamentally differ from a lot of Magic players. I'm a pixel artist - I LOVE limitations. I like being given a set of tools to work with and told to make what I can with it. Much the same as I enjoy the smaller canvas size I enjoy the smaller pool size.
April 29, 2014 1:08 p.m.
Valentine35 says... #25
I like that Theros block made people shift away from playing dual colored decks which is what Ravnica block focused on. Theros focusing on Devotion and mono colors i thought was pretty cool since i really like to play mono colored decks. I agree with slowing the format down kinda sucks since i also like to play some aggro, but it still exists its still there. In my opinion what Theros block needed, we got. We got Journey into Nyx, which for being such a small set i really like! i was tired of Theros block, but having now seen all the cards in JOU i really love this set, and i think it tremendously boosted my liking for theros. Plus the art in this block is amazing. Have you seen a foil Archetype of Finality , or a foil Oracle's Insight , brilliant!
April 29, 2014 2 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #26
On the point of Foils, I'd like to point out I was very disappointed with the foil for Opaline Unicorn . That card should have glimmered like the gods themselves but it didn't, and it sucked. :(
April 29, 2014 2:06 p.m.
Theros block had a disappointing lack of slivers and sliver related stuff.
April 29, 2014 2:22 p.m.
Theros block is going to be played on the kitchen table for generations to come... And only on the kitchen table, unfortunately.
April 29, 2014 3:40 p.m.
notamardybum says... #29
i'd say Boros Reckoner is on the power level of brimaz
April 29, 2014 3:43 p.m.
I don't know if this has been said, but something that gives all your enchantments indestructibility, is what I think this block needed, game play wise.
April 29, 2014 3:45 p.m.
I agree... for an Enchantment based block, it would have been fitting.
An Enchantment version of Darksteel Forge (but playable) would have been nice.
April 29, 2014 4:06 p.m.
I actually started to type that, but retracted it due to Enchantment creatures and Constellation and junk, Now I don't know what Darksteel Forge was like back then, but I imagine the likes of Green Devotion abusing the hell out of it. Granted it would have made a lot of potentially bad cards playable, without being broken due to all the exile enchantment effects. I really want it but I'm split on it for Theros at same time.
April 29, 2014 8:28 p.m.
I don't think it would fit for thematic reasons. Indestructibility in Theros is reserved to gods.
April 29, 2014 8:37 p.m.
That is true, but the Gods can grant Immortality to those they find deserving (Gift of Immortality ). So it would not have been a stretch to think they would grant Immortality to that which have traits of the Gods (i.e.: Enchantments).
April 29, 2014 10:33 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #35
Theros had bad flavor, and horribly under-powered cards. It sucked. What I did like about it was the Gods, at least the concept was cool.
Would have liked better creatures, mostly.
April 30, 2014 11:37 p.m.
I'm also wondering why there were no enchantment lands, like an enchantment version of Great Furnace . WotC wouldn't be able to put anything dumb like Affinity for Enchantments, but enchantment lands would be nice for constellation triggers, Ethereal Armor , etc.
Plus, they're balanced out by removal, like Naturalize . Sure, you might be able to go turn one white enchantment land -> Hopeful Eidolon -> turn two enchantment land -> Ethereal Armor -> Ethereal Armor -> swing for 11 with lifelink and first strike, but you could also lose your land to Destructive Revelry on turn two.
April 30, 2014 11:52 p.m.
sylvannos - Maro basically said to Enchantment Lands "Burn me once, shame on you." There was no plans to do Enchantment Lands, that said you CAN have a land that is an Enchantment thanks to Arbiter of the Ideal .
April 30, 2014 11:59 p.m.
Think of Enchantment lands this way:
1x Enchantment Forest
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Sakura-Tribe Scout
your choice of:
1x Grim Guardian
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
May 1, 2014 1:13 a.m.
Alternatively, mill yourself and then hit this:
1x Grim Guardian
1x Replenish
20x Enchantment Land
May 1, 2014 1:26 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #40
Enchantment lands would've been too good, Affinity 2.0.
May 1, 2014 12:58 p.m.
My problem with Theros was that most of the set's core mechanics were either terrible (heroic?) or under represented with only a few good options (constellations/devotion); the only one that was amazing without being game-changing was scrying. Devotion wasn't so much good as it was the only real option most people had to work with, and it was only good in two colors: green and black.
I also have an overall gripe with Planeswalkers; I came back for Theros after quitting in Mirrodin (the original) and Planeswalker have to be the worst addition to the game I've ever seen. The cost-to-benefit ratio is so skewed it's almost comical; Elspeth alone needs to be banned so badly it's painful - the running complaint that got Skullclamp banned was that it was so good you couldn't afford not to use it, and I see the same issue with Elspeth. I've seen a new Abzan Constellations deck running 3 Elspeth despite her having nothing to do with the theme. When you've got people trying to run 4 colors just to run 'Superfriends', you know you've got balance issues.
October 7, 2014 12:32 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #47
Not as bad as that one a couple months ago with the year old thread...
October 7, 2014 1:36 p.m.
TheRedDude says... #48
hmmm, necroed. personally am glad i was a newbie during theros block. Nothing much good to lose in a stupid trade. I still miss you, Snapcaster Mage
sylvannos says... #2
Good cards.
April 24, 2014 12:31 a.m.