Why does Wizards hate black so much?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Nov. 27, 2014, 3:47 p.m. by Psychonautical
(DISCLAIMER: This is a long rant that I have to get out. Frankly, I am not looking for any of you to be condescending or anything as none of this is to any of you, and I also don't care for you to read the heading and one or two lines and comment. If you want to be a part of this discussion, I ask you at least take the minute or two it takes to read all of this so you know what I am saying here.)
So ever since learning of MTG about a decade or so ago, I have had a strange infatuation with Black as a color. I always liked many of the effects the cards had, and the art is arguably the best on black cards.
However, as I have grown, gotten iser and better and playing and deck building, I noticed something very peculiar about the game...
Guys... Wizards RnD HATES Black.
Seriously. I mean, in all tournament play and even in casual, there is the old addage of blue being damn-near impossible to play against with its plethora of counters and numerous spells that, flavor-wise, REALLY need to be Sorceries instead of Instants.
But it goes way beyond that. I understand that each color sort of a has a theme and general play style. I understand that white, representing order, is going to exemplify humans the most, and humans being generally weak but organized, will offer the best 1-2 drops in general as far as creatures go.
But black doesn't seem to get a really consistent "best" of anything. Best answers/control go to blue, best weenies go to white, best fatties go to green, the fastest creatures go to red, and black... well hell, what exactly does black get?
And before you all scream, "NECROPOTENCE/PHYREXIAN OBLITERATOR!" yeah, I get that. But those are TWO extreme examples. How many "WTF that is a lot of power for one card at its mana cost" do the other colors have? I am thinking of Bonfire of the Damned and EVERY other miracle card (of which black has NONE), Baneslayer and a bunch of other Angels, Snapcaster mage and the Inquisitor Exarch's use with Splinter Twin (neither of those Black) and green with its near unfair mana-ramp and ridiculous creatures.
And I know many of you are thinking, "U mad bro LOL?" But no, I'm not mad. And I win plenty of games with my black design, but never as many as I SHOULD if the supposed brokenness of some of the cards are to be believed (you bet your arse I run foud Obliterators. What else am I to do?)
And it goes way beyond just Black sometimes having the no consistent advantages in its color (other than perhaps discard, a strategy that runs out of steam faster than burn since NO discard cards except for Surgical Extraction are instants and hands empty quick if you aren't playing blue.)
Like the Miracle mechanic. Okay, I get it, the theme of Innistrad evil taking over, and the last set was about the light restoring order, so I can see why they'd avoid any black "miracles."
But look at another keyword from the block: Undying. Undying is so obviously a black keyword that the very card that instantly grants it to any creature is the word followed by the word "EVIL." Undying. Evil.
And what does Wizard's do? They IMMEDIATELY make the BEST Undying creature green. Strangleroot Geist is a million times better than every other Undying Creature for its cost.
Hell, they even went as far as to make the best one-drop (ahem, ONLY one-drop) with it green. Young Wolf, while not quite as tribal as Butcher Ghoul, is still a whole mana cheaper. And for what? You couldn't give black, say, a 1/1 Undying Horror, Spirit, or Elemental even?
And take the block before Innistrad. What was the biggest keyword from it? Infect. Again, so OBNOXIOUSLY a black keyword, and what happens?
That's right. The best Infect creatures are f-ing Green and Blue. The Infect lord is black, as is the strongest and rarest Infect card, but Wizard's, full-knowing that Infect essentially says, "Hey, build your deck around this word and its like the opponent starts with ten life instead of twenty," went and made the black Infect creatures WAY too slow to bother with.
But my BIGGEST gripe isn't necessarily the presence of superior cards in other colors so much as the lack in one department: Planeswalkers.
What the hell guys? Why don't we get Planeswalkers?!
Blue has SO many Jace's for card advantage out the wazoo, but then, hey, let's give them a ridiculous blue Planeswalker to help artifacts. And you know what? Tamio, too, for MORE card advantage.
Green, while mainly Garruk, gets... well, Garruk, but then they have Nissa, and green is splashed with several other colors.
Don't even get me STARTED on how many White planeswalkers there are! Ajanai, Gideon, Elspeth, Nahiri, with about sixty different versions of each.
And red only has a few, but damn are they t least useful if costed well. Sarkahn, Chandra, even that dude from Romeo and Juliet makes up for his underhwelming power with an affordable mana cost.
Before I continue, here's the Planeswalker count per color:
Red (mono) - 7Red (splash) - 8Red (all) - 15
Green (mono) - 6Green (splash) - 7Green (all) - 13
Blue (mono) - 7Blue (splash) - 6Blue (all) - 13
White (mono) - 9!!!White (splash) - 5White (all) - 14
Black (mono) - 4!!! As in one, two, three FOUR!Black (splash) - 8Black (all) - 12
And Karn, who, while accessible to all colors, is also tied for the most expensive Planeswalker next to some incarnation of Garruk, and is thus not very viable in one of the slowest colors.
So what do we have in the way of Planeswalkers for black? Four near-useless cards, and one that is so overrated that other Planeswalkers laugh about it when it leaves the room.
Sorin Markov himself is so trash. At 6 CMC, his first ability is meh as 2 life each way is barely an advantage at that point in the game, and his second ability is ONLY useful if you yourself are at less than 7 life, as any opponent should be past or too close to ten to bother, and you'd gain 2 life with his first ability anyways. You wouldn't even get to use his ultimate because either A) by the time you got there, your opponent should be long gone, or at least have so little to do as far as their own cards go that "controlling your opponent for the next turn" may as well read, "Take an extra turn after this one. Your opponent draws a card." or B) before he go to 7, YOU would be long gone because if you haven't at at least stopped your opponents strategy in their tracks by turn 7, your deck is garbage and they are gonna win.
The next CMC down is the 5 CMC, Liliana Vess, is a shame because she seems useful but again, its too little too late. For 5 CMC, you get the advantage of causing opponent's-choice discard likely while they are already topdecking anyways, or you can suspend a Diabolic Tutor, except you also blow a draw step.
Next up, another Liliana, this one from the Dark Realms. At 4 CMC, she is at least somewhat easier to cast, yet more useless than her 5 CMC version. She has arguably the best removal of any Planeswalker, but comes with the huge drawback of only getting to use it a single time if you need it the same turn you cast her. Her first ability can at least be useful to thin out decks, but at the same time, I don't know about you guys, but I always ever only needed 4 lands to make a black deck work, so getting an extra one when I should draw one anyways is so so on the way to using her for what I really want. And her ultimate? quadruple mana? For WHAT?! On turn NINE, I get to attack with any creature I have killed or let die on my own IF my opponents hasn't exiled it first, such as with Treasure Cruise. SNORE.
And then there is the best Planeswalker that Wizard's could drum up for us, and honestly, I am not that impressed.
I don't know why every freaks out about her. For her cost and longevity, I'd rather just sideboard some Geth's Verdicts or other removal OR some hand destruction cards that LET ME PICK. I can't believe that so many cards get trashed for having an effect that let's your opponent pick, yet this gal has THREE and somehow sees tournament play.
Plus, in a Modern (and standard back when it was in) meta where there is (what seems like) a 30% chance that your opponent with have a Loxodon Smiter or Obstinate Baloth, you are often doing them a HUGE favor by racking up her Loyalty.
And then her other effect? A Geth's Verdict without the life loss? That's ONLY useful if they have a REALLY dangerous creature out and NOTHING ELSE. WHY IS SHE SO POPULAR?!
So do you folks get my point? There is a CLEAR favoritism going on with Blue, white, and to a lesser extent Green with Red sort of being left out but not nearly as much as black. At least Red gets you somewhere and counterspells in Blue can be useful the whole game as sometimes players cast from other places if they have no cards.
But blacks specialty of hand disruption fades REALLY quick, and is really only useful if you dedicate a huge chunk of your slots to it if not build your whole deck around it, at which point you dead-draw into discard spells when your opponent's hand is empty and the only option is to mainboard a few Pack Rats just in case.
If anyone reading this works at Wizards, or knows someone who does, tell them that its time for a REAL Black block. Not one that teases us with black abilities only to see those abilities work better in other colors. Not one that offers ONE Planeswalker here and there that still pales in comparison to every other color.
No. Its OUR turn. Its time for Black Mages to have our day (or night). We have Necropotence, Phyrexian Obliterator, Surgical Extraction and Bob. That's not good enough when blue and white dominate with their Snapcaster Mages and Angels, respectively.
Rant over.
miracleHat says... #2
Psychonautical, if somebody said that green was the runt of the colors, then I would disagree with you. The same goes with every color except for blue. Wizard's idea of Counterspell was so dumb. Thankfully, they are learning from their mistakes.
That being said, you are correct. Your opinion is your opinion; and I should go fuck myself.
November 29, 2014 2:40 a.m.
Buddy, nobody has been a cunt about this. I don't know what's got you so worked up here, we're all trying to defend and show you the upsides of your favorite play style. Generally, when there's 5 pages of forum making legitimate arguments against your case, you may need to consider the fact that you got it wrong.
But I guess I must be the one who's wrong, and I should go fuck myself? Great logic.
November 29, 2014 8:51 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
@Psychonautical, as well as everyone on the internet ever: Having an opinion isn't the same as being right.
I'm sorry your experiences playing Black have been so negative, but your conclusions about the strength/weakness of the color simply just aren't accurate. Pretty much everyone who's left a comment contradicting you had some very good reasons backing them up.
November 29, 2014 9:36 a.m.
Hickorysbane says... #5
Well......I'd say that this horse is not only dead and severely beaten but most certainly knows that it should participate in coitus with itself. No need for me to throw anything in except that I'm impressed a six page thread hasn't been overrun by trolls yet :P
November 29, 2014 10:02 a.m.
As a player who also prefers black, I identify with a lot of your points.
Most of the time, when there's a cycle of cards, the black one is usually not the best. How is it Urza's Saga saw Gaea's Cradle, Tolarian Academy, and Serra's Sanctum, but black (and red) didn't get a land with insane ramp? Phyrexian Tower costs you a creature, gets you only two mana for it, and only goes off once a turn? I know mana burn was a consideration in those days, but if anything, black and red are the colors that should have punished you for it. I also think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to walkers. Only 4 mono black ones? And that's only 2 different characters! For shame!
Here's where I'll defend WotC for a minute, though. Black doesn't do anything BEST, but it does have access to EVERYTHING! Now it's annoying that you can't draw cards in black without paying life, or sacrificing creatures, but you can draw cards second only to blue. I find myself already contradicting my point by saying here that black is best at tutoring for cards. Most other colors, if they have any tutors, limit what it is you may search for.
Black is also strong at targeted and mass removal, direct damage, and reliable creatures. Not the best in any area, but it covers all bases.
I will say that the description for black players is "power at any cost", but they over-emphasize this aspect, I think. If you remember the YMTC4 entries, there was one that I really liked which had four modes you got to choose each upkeep, and you couldn't choose a mode you had already previously chosen. The fourth mode was "you lose the game". I really liked this card from a black flavor aspect, but one of the options "draw two cards and lose two life" was RIDICULOUS! I'm already 3 turns away from losing the game, do I really have to pay two life to draw?
My theory about magic is you identify the strengths and weaknesses of each color, and put them together in ways that are complimentary or that amplify one aspect of the game, but it seems that black's weaknesses are designed into the cards in such a way that it's dangerous to play mono black.
I'll admit that I find this challenge interesting as a deck builder, though. I prefer decks that are very high-risk / high-rewards, but it is obnoxious seeing so many over-costed, underpowered, self-punishing cards, when other colors have no such obstacles to deal with.
I'm an old enough player to remember Dark Ritual being a black staple, even in standard. Black's ability to ramp is not even a feature of the color at all any more. Dark Ritual doesn't even have a drawback! In a sense, I was relieved when Liliana of the Dark Realms was printed, because I finally got to use black mana acceleration again in some form, even though it's terrible. I would almost have rathered her +1 just added B to your mana pool, since (I'm guessing) putting the swamp into play was too powerful.
To sum it all up, I think black gets the short end of the stick when it comes to "signature cards" or really stand-out cards when it comes to each aspect of the game, but I do think that unlike other colors which may have cards that are number 1 in any category you care to name, in the long run, black probably has cards in the top 5 of every category.
December 2, 2014 1:45 p.m.
Best at tutoring.
Best at removal.
Best PERMANENT card draw. No other colour has anything that draws you a card a turn, every single turn. Whilst blue can draw you 3 cards for the price of one card, black cards can draw your entire deck for the price of one card.
Whilst not having a lot of planeswalkers in total, Liliana of the veil is the best planeswalker in the modern format. It's even solid in legacy, although in that format it's second to JTMS.
Black has lots of 'best-ofs'
December 2, 2014 2:09 p.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #8
I personally hate the power that black gets in Standard, that's why I don't like playing it because it feels cheap to me. Hero's Downfall is ridiculously good and Thoughtseize turns a "oh hey, I can take this" hand into an instant loss. Doomwake Giant excels at clearing boards of mana dorks, and all the Abzan and most of the Mardu cards that include black are insane. Butcher of the Horde? Seriously Wizards? That card is insane, as are most of the completely overpowered Abzan cards like Siege Rhino and Abzan Charm. We're all gonna have things we hate about the way Magic is printed, but my personal pet peeve is how GOOD black is, at least in Standard.
December 2, 2014 2:20 p.m.
themlsna, if you think phyrexian tower is bad you clearly never saw Shivan Gorge
December 2, 2014 2:21 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #10
its not a case of distaste for black- It has more to do with the color pie. The one set/block where we've seen them really screw around with the color pie saw black get several things ppl had been clamoring for for years.
Think of the color pie, if you're not a new player this should be blatantly obvious. Also, if you aren't a new player it should be blatantly obvious to you that black, just like any of the other colors, has had its days in the sunshine.
I still stick by the initial theory I had in that a large portion of your OP post was trolling.
December 2, 2014 2:23 p.m.
Jp3ngu1nb0y No joke! Shivan Gorge doesn't even try to make an attempt at ramp like the other 4 lands. Sure, WotC doesn't want to make Disintegrate - I think it was at the time - easier to cast for insane damage. But why not make a red Phyrexian Tower-type card. Garbage.
ChiefBell You may feel black has the best permanent card draw (I think you're mistaken) but it certainly does not have the only repeatable card draw.
Overlooking all the artifacts Staff of Nin, Jalum Tome, Temple Bell, etc. Each other color has permanents that draw you cards without draining your life:
Blue: Arcanis the Omnipotent, Bringer of the Blue Dawn, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Dictate of Kruphix, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Compulsion, Rhystic Study
Green: Fecundity, Heartwood Storyteller, Recycle, Greater Good, Magus of the Library
White: Armistice, Mesa Enchantress, Puresteel Paladin, Inheritance
Even Red: Aggressive Mining, Dragon Mage, Mindmoil
December 2, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
Blue, Black, and Green are the 3 main card-drawing colors, so it will be easy to find examples of good effects in all of them. Notice that the Red and White examples are somewhat... lacking in quality.
Urza Block was a Design and Development disaster. The entire R&D team was hauled into the big boss' office and chewed out over all the miserable balance and power-level problems. Those sets shouldn't really be used as examples if you're trying to prove a point about the game in general.
The fact still remains that Black is far from the "worst color", and WotC doesn't "hate" it. There's something one of my good friends said once that made me crack up laughing when I heard it, but it's actually true: "I don't know what the best color is, but there's a 4-way tie for 2nd place".
December 2, 2014 4:15 p.m.
Wait, did you just compare ANY of those cards to the power of Phyrexian Arena? None of those are even CLOSE!
Theyre either impossible to cast in any competitive format (Arcanis, Staff of Nin) or they create equal effects for all players (fecundity etc). Phyrexian Arena creates an effect that applies only to you, for 3 mana.
Not a single card you just listed provides repeatable, non-negotiable card draw every single turn for any near the low, low mana cost of the examples found in black.
December 2, 2014 4:23 p.m.
ChiefBell I was specifically addressing your claim that "No other colour has anything that draws you a card a turn, every single turn." Obviously my mistake. I'm sure you were aware of the other options available.
December 2, 2014 4:51 p.m.
The insinuation of that paragraph wasn't so much that the effect doesn't exist, but that no other colour does it AS WELL as black does it.
December 2, 2014 4:58 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #17
Really Fulcrum? This is a platform for people to rant about something they have strong opinions about, on the faceless internet. Of course it's still alive.
I think the horse is long dead though. Black is just as good as anything else. This isn't the 1800s anymore.
December 2, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Do some actual research, there are plenty of things black is good at, you are ignorant to the evidence
December 2, 2014 6:40 p.m.
KillTheIslandUser says... #19
I just laughed the entire time at OP. I want my 4 mins back from reading that. The 4 mins was after I realized he wasn't joking... and I sat there dumbfounded at he was serious.
I didn't realize people thought the 1st or 2nd strongest color means weakest color. Black does nothing... lol.... Hell even the strongest mana ramp in the game is called BLACK lotus, not BLUE lotus.... ik it's an artifact but just saying lol
December 2, 2014 8:21 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #20
Hmm let's see.
Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena, Yawgmoth's Will, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Phyrexian Obliterator, etc. And let's see you find something like Griselbrand in any other color. I don't see a Cabal Coffers or Reanimate effects in any other color.
Don't forget about all the removal: Doom Blade, Damnation, Hero's Downfall, Dismember, so on and so forth. I don't see that in any other color except maybe white.
Also, why on earth is Liliana of the Veil 70 bucks if she's trash?
December 2, 2014 11:32 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #21
I forgot to mention: you can't say wizards hates black if you're not including all cards from all sets. There are shit loads of good cards outside of what is modern/standard legal, whether they be black or any other color. Choosing specific formats changes the whole argument.
December 2, 2014 11:43 p.m.
Ok , let's make this very clear . Blue has control , but removal belongs to black . What's blue got ? Dissolve what's black got ? Dead end
December 3, 2014 12:43 a.m.
shinobigarth says... #23
yeah i don't know why this is still going either. a quick look on this thread and its easy to see black overall is arguably the most powerful color especially since a lot of its costs is paying life and as we all know life is just another resource.
December 3, 2014 12:44 a.m.
Has anyone even mentioned Bitterblossom? Or better yet, probably the best 3-drop creature in the game, Vampire Nighthawk?
December 3, 2014 2 a.m.
@-Axion-: As much as I love Black (it's my favorite color), I have to disagree with you on Nighthawk. Very good, yes, but nowhere near as good as Vendilion Clique.
I would still play a playset of Nighthawk in Standard.
December 3, 2014 3:14 a.m.
shinobigarth says... #26
Nighthawk is one of my fave creatures but its not the best 3 drop
December 3, 2014 4:18 a.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #27
Something tells me I'm going to love this thread;
Black is the most powerful colour in my honest opinion. People save their removal for Black creatures primarily (yes one reason being because they are always unprotected), but mostly because if they don't, that creature will ultimately win you the game. And, no they are NOT too slow at all. Visera Seer, Thrull Parasite and Deathgreeter are all solid one drops that usually are left alone until they start proving to be a problem. Visera Seer is part of the unlimited combos in Melira Pod decks. Thrull Parasite will go crazy with extort if you don't take care of it, and it can also reset undying and also damage planeswalkers with a tap. Deathgreeter is a static vampire that will sit there and gain you life as creatures die around it, the fact that it's a vampire is important because it synergizes well with Blade of the Bloodchief. As far as one drops go, Black is probably the worst colour, but you are NEVER going to lose on the first turn in Modern.No, some of Black's best creatures are two drops! Dark Confidant is 2 mana, and you only need one black to cast it, that right there is devastating. If they do NOT remove Confidant, he will draw you exactly what you need to win the game, and he comes out on turn 2? In a lot of cases, you're using him to bait removal. You WANT him to live, but if he's removed, then the rest of your creatures are much safer to drop. Another one of my favourite black two drops is Blood Artist. This one card is packed to the brim with value. It's totally understood that both Blood Artist and Dark Confidant, as far as creatures go, are as basic as creatures get, no added combat abilities like flying or whatever, but those two cards don't need any of that. Blood Artist can be used as removal bait, or your win con. When Innistrad block was standard, people were playing a deck that used blood artist with lingering souls and other token producing cards, The more creatures on the board, the more and more threatening Blood Artist becomes. He's even more powerful in modern where you can include cards like Forbidden Orchard (Kamigawa block) and Illness in the Ranks (Gatecrash). Those two cards also combo well with Blood Seeker (another very overlooked black two drop) and Suture Priest (white two drop from New Phyrexia). However, Blood Artist seems to be the best of all those cards. So with Blood Seeker, each time you tap an orchard and create a token for your opponent and they lose one life. Suture Priest is pretty much the same, but with the added bonus of lifegain when creatures come into play under your control. Suture Priest is a widely revered card, but Blood Artist embarrasses both of those cards. With Illness in the Ranks out, one tap of forbidden orchard makes your opponent lose 1 life, but also gives you 1 life. If damage is your game (and 90% of all magic decks rely on it), that's a 2 life swing. Another thing to consider; the more blood artists you have on the board, the more life each death will swing. 2 blood artists make a 4 life swing, 3 make a 6 life swing and so on. One thing you need to understand about Blood Artist is that even if he DOES get removed, you get something for it. If he he gets path to exiled, that's a land, if he gets bolted or abrupt decayed, you still get the 2 life swing from his ability, and if he's exiled with Oblivion Ring, you can get him back potentially, or at the very worst, you made the guy use his Oblivion Ring (a 3cmc card) on your 2 cmc Blood Artist.
So, early game, black has some very decent creatures to play with. But Black's main early game advantages are discard and removal. Discard is incredibly powerful, especially targeted discard like thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek and duress. Those are cards that can protect potentially game-winning plays. Black players should NEVER be worried about counterspells, otherwise they're not playing black properly. Looking at someone else's hand alone is a BIG advantage. I've had games where people scoop as soon as I cast Thoughtseize, and I don't even get to see what's in their hand, but if I did, I'd know exactly how to play my next two turns. It can be the difference between falling for his bait and getting his win con out of his hand turn 1. Also, you will know if your creatures are safe to play, or if you need to play some more mind games before you can do something. The closest thing to Thoughtseize you can get in Blue is Vendilion Clique, and that card will cost you at least 70$, and it's 3 cmc (not 1) and it also gives the guy a card draw... It's good but the potentially dangerous drawback is not there on Thoughtseize. The main drawback Thoughtseize has is the lose 2 life. But that's hardly a drawback you would consider if you are ready to go off on some crazy combo.
Reanimation is also a very good way to win with black. My mono black reanimator deck is capable of turn 3 win. It's very rare, but I've seen it happen. Turn 1 Raven's Crime yourself, discard Griselbrand. Turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance on Griselbrand, swing for 7, pay the life draw the cards. Turn 3 Raven's Crime yourself, discard Emrakul, in response to having to shuffle him back in, Goryo's Vengeance, attack and win.
That deck is tournament level. It's not cheap to make, but I don't think any tournament decks are cheap to make.
I am appalled that you would call my favourite colour WEAK. Black is the WIN colour. It's raw power, which is why there's so many drawbacks, and so little protection. That turn 3 combo is not even possible without Griselbrand's draw 7 cards ability. And the fact that he also swings for 7 damage in the air with lifelink shows just how ruthlessly powerful black can be. I do agree with you that there needs to be more more Black Planeswalkers though. Liliana of the Veil is more powerful than you give her credit for. She would slot quite nicely in that reanimator deck, don't you think?
December 4, 2014 1:46 p.m.
You can win T2 with griselbrand reanimator easily.............. just run extra combat cards.
December 4, 2014 2:06 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #29
I know, I'm just using my deck as an example. The turn 2 win deck isn't that appealing to me because it's not consistent enough to go on a run of match wins. My deck has a number of different win cons, and they don't all require Goryo's Vengeance and Griselbrand. It's just a very well-made reanimator deck. My brother and I go head-to-head with each other quite often, and he runs Melira Pod, so it's been put to the test enough times.
December 4, 2014 3:25 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #30
I have to say I really enjoy the Kederekt Leviathan+Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead combo in reanimator decks, although Im not sure how competetive it is. I used to run it in a Modo deck that won pretty consistently on turn 2-3. The games it lost were basically sneak decks when they were on the play, FOW, or heavy gy hate. Im probably talking about over half of the competetive paper format though, arent I?
December 4, 2014 3:34 p.m.
You call yourself a black mage yet you insult our Queen. You're not worthy of casting black cards. Please switch over to the blue/red/green/white mages you deem to be so powerful.
If you truly don't understand why Liliana of the Veil is the 2nd best Planeswalker ever printed, I doubt you understand anything about the nature of black.
December 5, 2014 4:36 a.m.
@Putrefy, One could argue that in some cases, Elspeth Knight-Errant, Ajani Vengeant, or even Karn Liberated are better. But she's definitely in the top 5.
December 5, 2014 9:25 a.m.
Not every one of your opinions is necessarily right, ChiefBell. It's possible that someone else may see something different than you
In many instances, Knight-Errant is simply the superior walker. But it just depends on how you play and the deck you put her in.
December 5, 2014 9:31 a.m.
I think you mistakenly assume that I'm in some minority that regards LilianaOTV as the second best walker ever printed. This is a pretty widespread belief among people; it's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of many, many people.
The superior walker is the one you slam pick for almost any deck. The one that can protect itself even against hexproof creatures or trample creatures. The one that ultimates after 4 turns, instead of 5. The one that comes down that crucial turn earlier than the rest. The one that's the most widely played walker in modern. The list goes on.
I understand you may see things differently but you're definitely swimming against the tide.
December 5, 2014 9:38 a.m.
See the gatherer ratings, or here for more information.
But essentially the difference between 3 and 4 mana is HUGE.
December 5, 2014 9:45 a.m.
I understand, in fact I was just reading that article as I made that post. But did you consider Commander, or casual play? Elspeth is good on her own, Liliana needs a deck built around her to run effectively. Just because some guy on SCG says it's better doesn't mean you have to accept that, nor that it's always better in every case and every format.
December 5, 2014 9:53 a.m.
This argument is subjective and irrelevant to the original thread. "Goodness" of the walker in question is all dependent on the player, deck, and meta-game. Both are good, both perform different functions, both are most powerful in different formats; this is apples and oranges.
December 5, 2014 9:57 a.m.
It is subjective yeah, but its relevant to the 'black is actually the best or second best colour' argument.
December 5, 2014 10:07 a.m.
@vishnarg: I disagree that Liliana needs a deck built around her. You can honestly put her in almost any deck that contains black.
December 5, 2014 2:05 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #41
Please don't send this nub to the blue side. We don't want him either.
December 5, 2014 2:09 p.m.
KillTheIslandUser says... #42
You are getting him and liking it, we had him for a while.... now your turn to deal with him.
December 5, 2014 2:57 p.m.
KillTheIslandUser says... #43
vishnarg ... what?
vishnarg says, "But did you consider Commander, or casual play?"
Yeah we did.. Liliana still is 2nd best based off the still current criteria. Also what kind of argument is casual play? Casual play? So a card that has a great power lvl if you will... used in casual play? How does that differ from throwing in another really high power lvl card as comparison? Your argument holds no weight.
And in commander.... you still run LotV. You don't need a deck built around her.
December 5, 2014 3:02 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #44
My thoughts on Liliana of the Veil:
She is the ultimate embodiment of the "Black" planeswalker. All of her abilities and the card itself just perfectly represents the colour. Black is the colour of resourcefulness, being able to use and reuse things, the "downside" to her +1 ability is not a downside at all. All players must discard a card, where is the disadvantage? And maybe there are cards that you don't mind having in your graveyard (because you run black). Lingering Souls is a great example from the same set. Her -2 is black's next strongest suit; removal! Black has the biggest and best choice of removal cards, but Liliana is one of the few removal cards black has that gets EVERYTHING. No amount of indestructible and hexproof is going to save a creature from this ability... it's downright dirty. Finally, her ult is exactly why black is so powerful to begin with; because it's control. It's a cruel ultimatum that stifles your opponents and ruthlessly holds them down for pretty much the rest of the game.
So the best planeswalker, in one of the most powerful colours, and she's only 3 mana to cast? gg
You know, they most likely made Sigarda, Host of Herons because of Liliana of the Veil, right?
December 5, 2014 4:04 p.m.
nothingexpert says... #45
Yeah because Whip of Erebos isn't a thing right now....
December 21, 2014 10:51 a.m.
Why did you have to bring this God forsaken thread back???
December 21, 2014 10:55 a.m.
Blue is the strongest color in Magic, and Black comes second, not sure why you say it is the worst.
Then comes Red and white, note sure which is third or fourth, then Green as the all time loser.
December 21, 2014 2:24 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
Green's a great deal better than either Red or White, in pretty much every format.
Psychonautical says... #1
Formatting error
November 29, 2014 2:29 a.m.