Will the "Generals" for each wedge be playable in modern or standard?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Aug. 24, 2014, 2:38 a.m. by LordOfDispair
So, as far as we know, there will be a mythic legendary creature for each wedge color combination. What I am trying to figure out is, will they be playable?
It's been seeming like they have been designing a lot of cards for EDH players recently, and the BRW one is barely playable even in commander. Do you think the rest will offer potential spots in popular standard, modern, or legacy decks?
I'm not sure why you say the BRW one is barely playable. Seems to me like he would make an excellent commander for an aggressive deck.
If you look back at RTR, most of the guilds' legendaries were unplayable. You had Obzedat, Ghost Council sure, but then you also had cards like Lavinia of the Tenth , Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch , etc. that never saw any kind of competitive play. So for this set, I would expect the others to follow the same general pattern.
August 24, 2014 2:55 a.m.
A few of things. Firstly Lavinia and exava are maze runners (sorta like second in command for the guild), secondly Exava sees play in jund aggro, and finally, i think the khans will be playable, at least one or two. Zurgo doesn't seem great in EDH, but in standard he's almost a guaranteed removal or 7 damage, and after that they have to have an answer. RW burn is already a deck, and a dude coming in for 7 who won't die on your turn, albeit turn 5 or 6, is still a pretty large threat. There's probably gonna be some good Wedge mana-fixing as well, like Nomad Outpost , so they probably will see some play. Nonetheless, it's still a bit too early to tell, and you'll have to evaluate them card-by-card, as Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius didn't show us how good Obzedat, Ghost Council was.
August 24, 2014 3:02 a.m.
YouGotFranked says... #5
Nobody can tell how playable they'll be. First, because, well, we have no idea what they do. Secondly, a card's playability is very dependent on the format's metagame. Nightveil Specter and Pack Rat were deemed unplayable by many when they came out, but Theros brought a deck for them to shine in and they're now staples in monoblack. Since Theros brings a rotation with it, many current decks might disappear from the competitive scene, completely shifting the metagame.
As for Zurgo Helmsmasher , he has very playable stats and abilities. he'll either cost your opponents 2 cards ( a blocker+ a removal) or deal 7 damage before eating a removal. The only problem i see ahead of him is people favoring the weaker but easier to cast and evasive Stormbreath Dragon over him. Still we never know what the future hold for the Mardu's Khan.
Finally, Chris VanMeter said something very interesting about the perception of ''Best'' deck and competitive decks in general. He mentioned something about people watching big competitive tournament and getting into a mindset that only these decks are competitive playable, while in fact, any good decks in the hand of a good player who knows the decks well along it's match ups can go far. So don't get into your head that a card is not competitive playable just because it's not played in tournament right now.
August 24, 2014 3:46 a.m.
I don't think Zurgo Helmsmasher is great. 5 Mana for a creature that dies to Bile Blight is pretty weak :/
August 24, 2014 4 a.m.
YouGotFranked says... #7
Stormbreath Dragon dies to even more removal, yet it's still an excellent card.
August 24, 2014 4:17 a.m.
Oh, that's why Stormbreath Dragon is dominating Standard lately, right?
August 24, 2014 5:08 a.m.
YouGotFranked says... #9
Define ''Dominating'' please, because so far, Stormbreath Dragon is part of most midrange decks playing red.
August 24, 2014 5:16 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #10
Yes?
Every deck in Standard has some sort of kingpin card that gets all the heavy lifting done. Several decks use 'Ol Stormy. Most notably, Jund monsters, which is still one of the best decks in the format.
Besides, a card doesn't have to literally dominate the metagame in order to be an excellent card. All sorts of excellent cards see almost no play at all.
August 24, 2014 5:19 a.m.
No-one is playing Stormbreath lately! Come on guys, get your facts straight. Look up MTGTop8.com and tell me how many copies of Stormbreath Dragon there are in the latest events. (If you're too lazy, Stormbreath is the 93rd most played card of Standard lately.) So please don't tell me that "several deck use 'Ol Stormy"... Maybe in your FNM-meta some players still haven't adapted to the meta-change and still rely on this out-dated 5-drop.
And Jund Monsters is far from being one of the best decks in the format lately. You see either Jund Walkers or no Jund at all. R/W Devotion is non existent because playing Burn or strict RDW with Rabblemaster is just better and less Nykthos dependant. Do you want to know why Stormbreath Dragon is seeing so little play lately? Because 35% of the field is Mono Black Devotion or Orzhov Midrange or Golgari Devotion - and Stormbreath Dragon sucks against these decks.
Now please, next time before making any statements try to get your facts straight.
(I can tell you where you find Stormbreath Dragon these days, in the sideboards of Jund Walkers decks, because their matchup against G/W aggro is pretty bad. But even there it's not always 4 copies or any at all...)
August 24, 2014 5:47 a.m.
The meta has shifted dramatically recently. It's now even more depressing than it was before.
August 24, 2014 5:59 a.m.
YouGotFranked says... #13
Exactly. Stormbreath Dragon is not played much right now because the meta shifted, not because it's a bad card. Competitive meta is like a game of Rock, Paper, Scissor. When a Rock deck is dominating , people start playing Paper more, and when Paper has pushed Rock out of the top and became the dominant deck, People start playing Scissor. And the cycle continues. If Stormbreath Dragon was a bad card, it would never made it in a top 8 deck.
August 24, 2014 6:07 a.m.
So? It's currently not a suitable card for top 8 decks. You could have listed any 'good' card that isn't currently played but really its utterly irrelevant. The original question is whether the card is 'playable' not whether its 'good'. The two aren't interchangeable.
August 24, 2014 6:27 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #15
ChiefBell says...
"The meta has shifted dramatically recently. It's now even more depressing than it was before."
August 24, 2014 10:59 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #17
the problem with these statements is that playability is defined by the meta, not by the card's stats. Obviously Stormbreath Dragon is good, but he doesn't match up well in the current environment. Zurgo is a good card. 5 mana isn't too bad to top of a curve in an aggressive/midrange deck. We can't really speculate on how playable he will be in standard without knowing what else will be in the format.
August 24, 2014 11:31 a.m.
@Putrefy: I'm not sure how you can say Stormbreath isn't playable. He did dominate Standard for a period of several months. He was an auto 4-of in every Gruul and Jund monsters, 2 of the strongest decks this season. He was also very popular in American control while that lasted, which was a good couple months. Red isn't super popular right now, but every deck that has it (besides RDW) runs Stormbreath. So maybe he hasn't seen an appearance in a top 8 in a couple months. Doesn't mean he's a bad card, or that he's not playable. It just means the meta has shifted. Quite frankly, your comments came off as very douchey.
August 24, 2014 1:24 p.m.
How can you say a card is playable nut no-ones played it in ages. That makes no sense.
August 24, 2014 3:40 p.m.
I still see him played by multiple people at every FNM. Jund and Gruul monsters are still prevalent, and a lot of lists still run Stormbreath. So to say he isn't playable just because he hasn't hit a top 8 recently is dumb.
August 24, 2014 3:46 p.m.
Well I don't really see fnm as the pinnacle of competitive magic but fine.
August 24, 2014 3:54 p.m.
LordOfDispair says... #22
Zurgo Helmsmasher not being very good in standard is just my opinion, I assumed it was kind of a consensus. There is just so much that can deal with indestructible at the moment. Ulcerate , Bile Blight , Magma Spray (maybe? I dunno the ruling), Silence the Believers , and a bunch of white cards that might see play if he ever became popular (other than Banishing Light , obviously)
Even if he doesn't eat removal the turn he hits the board, he'll just get chumped and then removal-ed the next turn. If he had trample or evasion of some sort, at least you would have some guaranteed damage if he didn't eat a Bile Blight right away. But with all the token producers in standard and the fact that he comes out on turn 5, I just don't see any damage happening.
Except with Generator Servant , that would be the sickest thing ever. Turn three, 7 damage or sac your Brimaz, King of Oreskos .
August 24, 2014 4:02 p.m.
So essentially you're saying that any card that hasn't been part of a top 8 list in the last 3 weeks isn't playable?
August 24, 2014 4:06 p.m.
YouGotFranked says... #24
LordOfDispair To clarify on the ruling, Magma Spray won't exile Zurgo Helmsmasher while he's indestructible.
Anyway, this whole debate is kinda pointless. What is considered playable or not right now won't matter when the rotation hit and many of the current top decks will die out and new one will rises. All i'm saying is, just like Stormbreath Dragon , Zurgo has the stats and abilities to be playable if there's a deck for him, but players will probably favor the dragon over him because of it's easier mana cost and flying. I don't have a crystal ball however and i sincerely hope there will be a deck for him.
August 24, 2014 6:04 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #25
lordofdespair: a few things about what you said.....Bile Blight doesn't see that much play, Ulcerate sees almost no play. same goes for Silence the Believers . the fact that he can do something the turn he enters with almost nothing to stop him is what makes him good. sure Banishing Light will take care of him. but guess what? not every deck plays white, and not every white deck plays it. look at Stormbreath Dragon . he dies to Ultimate Price , Doom Blade and Hero's Downfall , all of which are pretty heavily played in black decks. plus, you can kill the dragon when he comes down. you cant touch zurgo until your turn. also, which token makers are you talking about? Elspeth, Sun's Champion is the only card like that that really sees play, and zurgo comes down first. another thing to consider is that he gets bigger when he kills stuff, which is pretty good if you ask me
August 24, 2014 7:34 p.m.
Bile Blight and Ulcerate both could see a big uptick in play after rotation though with the quality of removal leaving.
He might see some play, but that 2 toughness could really be a hindrance.
August 24, 2014 7:43 p.m.
kmcree - essentially any card that hasn't been played at a very high level for say, a month or two, isn't playable. But I don't necessarily say that any card that's not playable is bad. So at the moment I would say that Stormbreath is really good, but unplayable.
August 25, 2014 5:32 a.m.
Saying that there are 2 removal spells in a format that can kill something doesn't make it bad. It's 7 haste damage turn 5, which if blocked has already killed a creature. It generates a 2-for-1 which is a win in itself if this happens, but if they decide to take 7 to the face, then kill it the turn after, it's still 7 damage and forces them to use a card to kill it. It's good as even if they just chump block it, they have to answer it immediately or they're gonna be hit again next turn. Yes, Bile Blight and Ulcerate both kill it, but Hero's Downfall kills elspeth, and that didn't stop people playing it. Supreme Verdict killed invisible stalker, but people still played bant auras in ISD/RTR standard. Desecration Demon dies to Banishing Light , but that didn't render it unplayable. Certain creatures die to any removal spell, but the fact that there are only 2 proper answers to Zurgo shows how good he is. Also: people don't hold up mana all the time, and if they're holding BB, maybe keep zurgo in hand for a while longer.
August 26, 2014 2:54 a.m.
I don't think those two cards alone make him unplayable, but there is a certainly a difference between spending five mana to cast him and seeing him removed for 1 or 2 mana. And that's just if we're talking about answering him immediately. If you chump block, all of the removal (save Magma Spray /Magma Jet ) comes into play on your opponent's turn.
Maybe it hits hard enough for that not to matter, but I'm not a big fan of it.
August 26, 2014 9:32 a.m.
Oh I'd love to throw my Hornet Nest infront of this 7/2 haste guy... So my opponent does get a 2for1, because I have to kill it next turn? Or maybe I swing for 6 in the air and leave back 1 hornet... Wow, amazing creature...
If at least he had trample, so that you couldn't just throw an unimportant mana-dork infront of him...
August 26, 2014 5:02 p.m.
So... Apparently the only good creature in Standard is AEtherling since it can't be chump blocked and doesn't die to Doom Blade . Everything else sucks... Ok.
August 26, 2014 5:11 p.m.
Ok, to go more into detail: What cards (creatures is too narrow) at 5 cmc are actually seeing play right now:
Gray Merchant of Asphodel - actually does something the moment it comes into play without having to attack.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa - dodges the most common removal at any times, is insane agains G/W-aggro and mono-black.
Obzedat, Ghost Council - dodges sorcery removal, doesn't need to attack to actually do something and does something the turn it comes into play.
Vraska the Unseen - can kill of any annoying opposing permanent or threaten to go ultimate in 2 turns.
Nissa, Worldwaker - she is simply op. Nothing to add here.
Even the once-great Stormbreath Dragon is plain and simply just better than Zurgo. Why? Evasion, dodges white-removal.
And now stop playing dumbass and get back to the facts please. Oki? Thanks :)
August 26, 2014 5:34 p.m.
And 3 of the cards you mentioned are about to rotate. Leaving a void to be filled. It's possible Zurgo could fill it, or he might not. I'm not saying he'll for sure see play, I'm just saying not to dismiss it. So stop being an asshole about it.
August 26, 2014 6:02 p.m.
I feel that Zurgo can be playable for two reasons.
1. He is in the right colors to support a creature of his caliber creature wise. Archetype of Courage
and Archetype of Aggression
are within the colors, as is Iroas, God of Victory
.
2. He has black, therefore can be played alongside Thoughtseize
, Hero's Downfall
, and his white allows Godsend
to be played and equipped the turn after he hits the field.
August 26, 2014 6:20 p.m.
Who would attack this guy into a hornet nest? Here's a tip, use one of those removal spells you kindly named for me like bile blight and kill it before attacking. Maybe don't attack into an open chord for 3 if you're worried also. Why does having to attack make something worse if it still immediately impacts the board? This card is basically a desecration demon with haste and 1 more power for 1 more mana. They sac a creature to tap it and give it a +1/+1 counter or take 7. Now that card sees play doesn't it? I'm sure haste for 1 more mana is a fine tradeoff.
August 27, 2014 2:23 a.m.
@ KingSorin Because it can easily be chumped. Also the reason why Desecration Demon saw so much play is: a 6/6 flier for 4CMC that red decks cannot handle at all. If Zurgo had trample he would be absurd, but without he's just a 7/2 that can be chumped again and again, or once and then killed with basically any killspell that's currently around (Last Breath doesn't work obviously...)
I'm tired of arguing with you guys, let's just wait and see, shall we?
August 27, 2014 6:16 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #38
I think we can all agree that a card's playability is largely based on the meta, right? If that is the case, the only way to see if he is playable is to see what the new set brings. It is fair to say that he wouldn't be playable in this meta, but perhaps he will be stronger once we get khans.
August 27, 2014 6:31 p.m.
WHat i meant by the d demon example is you sac a creature (for demon this is his ability and zurgo this is to chump him. Then it gets a counter (zurgo from the die trigger and d demon from his ability. They both will deal a huge chunk to them if not sacrificed to. Your point about red is a valid one i admit, but killing a creature each turn is good in itself. If all of their creatures are tapped this is just a free 7 damage also. You may be right that it's too weak, but the card is too good to dismiss right away.
August 28, 2014 1:34 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #40
Putrefy - So, you have to use a chump blocker and use a removal spell to kill the guy, but he is still bad. Calling stormbreath dragon unplayable as well?
You know Grey Merchant fell for a long period of time as well with U/W taking over for a period. He depends entirely on devotion.
Even if he can be chump blocked repeatedly, you're still getting value of him by force your opponent to chump block. He'll be one of few creatures who can bash into Hornet Queen without help. Sorry but as mentioned, the bile blight is in the same colour as him, the same as most the other removal you mentioned. Than can just kill your chump blocker as well. I'd also like to mention Dictate of Heliod could also see play in a zurg rush deck like this taking him out of bileblight/Ulcerate range. Also just because those cards can kill it, doesn't mean you'll always have those cards in hand.
Seriously, he's an inbuilt 2 for 1 with the exception of Bile Blight and Ulcerate. Remember that once upon a time Blood Baron of Vizkopa saw no play at all.
Also, if your meta completely follows the pro tour top 8s, it would be an easy ass meta for me to beat. As pointed out, it's all rock paper scissors and if your meta is that blatant that I'd know the majority of the decks going into it, I'd have a massive advantage. So yes, I'd say Stormbreath dragon will continue to see playand is still a good card in other metas because some metas adapt and change a lot faster than simply following the top8 every few weeks.
August 28, 2014 2:37 a.m.
rho.reduction says... #41
I really like zurgo, he's an 'answer this now' kinda creature. Exactly the kind of guy I'd like to play. It's pressure and forces chump/removal immediately. Seems playable once RtR is out. Pure speculation, of course. Everything depends on what else is printed in Khans. However, after seeing the new mighty-morphin-mana-dork I'm even more excited for new RUG toys. Hope the Temur khan is just as awesome.
August 28, 2014 10:15 a.m.
Glennfinito says... #42
One of the reasons I think he will be relevant vs. other fatties is that he has haste and I think him and Stormbreath Dragon will switch places depending on matchup.
He's also good friends with Iroas, God of Victory
August 30, 2014 9:05 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #43
I think some people here are confusing 'playable' with 'currently being played'. They're very very different things.
A card is 'playable' if it could be used in a competitive deck. So yes, Stormbreath Dragon is obviously Standard playable. How do we know this? It was a core component of many competitive decks.
Is it currently BEING PLAYED? Not as much. But 'playability' is inherrent in the card, regardless or not of if it's currently being played.
-Fulcrum says... #2
I think it really depends. Not all the guildleaders in RTR are constructed playable, but some, like Obzedat and Trostani, are pretty powerful. Others, like Isperia, aren't really even good in EDH. The gods of Theros are similar. Thassa is crazy good, while Ephara is fringe playable at best - and that's in EDH. We won't know until they're actually spoiled.
August 24, 2014 2:42 a.m.