WotC is Phasing Out Regeneration
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Oct. 31, 2016, 4:16 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
There have not been any new cards with regeneration in quite some time, so many players were suspecting that WotC wasd phasing it out, and, now, Mark Rosewater has confirmed that in this article, here. In that article, Rosewater states that indestructibility is replacing regeneration, which makes sense, to me, as it is a more powerful ability.
What does everyone else say about this? Will you miss regeneration? I know that I will, even if indestructibility is superior to it.
Shane.Allen says... #3
I agree I like both abilities, knowing Mark they will change their minds in 2 months and go back to having it xD
October 31, 2016 4:27 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #4
Shane.Allen, why do you say that? Has Mark Rosewater changed his mind, before?
October 31, 2016 4:29 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #5
Overall, I think it's better for the game because regeneration is just overly complex, and confuses a lot of newer players (I know because I was one once lol). I don't like the flavor of black getting indestructible, but from a mechanical standpoint it's less complexity for the same effect.
October 31, 2016 4:34 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
Fated Return and Erebos, God of the Dead have something to say to you about indestructibility, ABadMagicPlayer100. ;P
October 31, 2016 4:42 p.m.
Shane.Allen says... #7
DemonDragonJ It's a joke that most people I think would have gotten, The joke was about the change in the standard rotation.
October 31, 2016 4:45 p.m.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #8
I do love Fated Return.
Eh...
But I LOVE regenerate. Hmm...
Maybe wraths and kill spell's will allow regeneration more often making my regen better in EDH (without the extra cost of indestructibility/the hate it induces in certain playgroups).
October 31, 2016 4:46 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #9
Shame. I've always loved Regenerate. Though I can see why they're phasing it out. Of all the keywords MTG has to offer, Regenerate is by far and away the one I've had to explain to people the most. As wordy as effects like Cascade and Trample are, I've always found it harder to explain Regenerate to people. Especially newer players.
I'm kind of both ways about Indestructible replacing it. The fact that it is a more powerful effect tells me we'll probably see less cards with it to be honest, and that's a bit disappointing. Regenerate played a key role in making creatures stick in a world flooded with spot removal and other board-controlling cards, and it did it in a fair and reasonable manner. Indestructible is just kind of a shot to the face for your opponent, especially when it lasts the whole turn, as opposed to one instance of death.
I'll miss Regenerate, but again, I'm not surprised in the least that it's being phased out. Heck, it seems to me like it's been phasing out for a very, very long time now.
October 31, 2016 4:48 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
"The next time permanent name would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If its an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat."
It doesn't seem that wordy or difficult to understand. With this apparent change, I wonder how they will be handling board wipes. Perhaps ones that specifically interact with indestructible creatures, or sac/exile effects.
October 31, 2016 4:53 p.m.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #11
I haven't even playing a long time, M10 is when I started. But I'm going to have to explain what regenerate was like it wasn't evergreen. What a shame. Regenerate feels more fair, you can't regenerate twice a turn, you have to pay a cost on the spot, many wraths also prevent it. Are we going to start seeing cards that remove indestructibility for a turn?
October 31, 2016 4:57 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #12
Raging_Squiggle It's not wordy or difficult to understand. I agree. But somehow it is to everybody who's new to the game, because they don't yet understand exactly how marking damage or removing from combat works. They also tend to fail to understand that regenerate replaces dying, so the creature never died, never triggered any death-related effects, never touched the graveyard, never "re-entered" the battlefield, etc. Every time I've had to explain regenerate to someone, I've had to put very specific emphasis on the fact that it replaces death.
October 31, 2016 4:57 p.m. Edited.
Shane.Allen says... #13
Raging_Squiggle remember it may just be really confusing to Mark Rosewater, I mean I know he does have a hard time understanding what most people want.
October 31, 2016 5 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #14
Shane.Allen I think it doesn't help him that so many players want so many different things. It's pretty hard to pin down what mtg players want out of the game without limiting it to a subsection of players like competitive or casual, all the different formats. They're basically trying to please a dozen plus different playerbases simultaneously.
October 31, 2016 5:16 p.m.
It makes sense. I am in favor of the change. Regenerate and Indestructible unitl EOT are basically the same thing in 95% of cases, and mostly the other 5% just confused new players.
October 31, 2016 5:24 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #16
I'm not so sure about that. Sure in a lot of cases "Indestructible until end of turn" and Regenerate are effectively the same, but 95%? Not even close. Totally different interactions with First strike, denying any kills for the whole turn, not tapping, etc. Indestructible is far stronger, which could make the mechanic rarer.
October 31, 2016 5:32 p.m.
I am fine with phasing out Regeneration, I've never really liked the mechanic. Personally, I've always thought the mechanic failed in terms of flavor and being understood just from its name. Flying means the creatures flies over enemies. First strike means you strike first. Trample involves some math and has a few odd interactions, but it's easy to understand a creature being too big and forceful to be stopped.
But Regeneration is not immediately understandable. For one, regeneration is something that you have to do before you take damage, which doesn't make sense. You have to use Regeneration before you actually have any damage you need to regenerate. It's not you regenerating from lethal damage, it's you putting a bubble around yourself. If the mechanic had been named Withstand or something, I don't think people would have as much an issue with it.
October 31, 2016 6:09 p.m.
To this day, I still don't understand Regenaration.
Can I activate it at the start of my turn, and if it dies, it get's removed? No, wait, it get's removed immediately? But damage only wears of when it would die? Does poison counters or -1/-1 counters also wear off? Can I activate the ability if the permanent is tapped? Wait, damage is not prevented with this?
Seriously, it's confusing. I understand why new players have a hard time with it. It's much easier to just have "Prevent all damage" or Indistructible.
I'm not sad to see it go.
October 31, 2016 6:41 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #19
Yes, earliest is at upkeep. It doesn't die. Damage is removed per the effect if it would be destroyed. Yes, damage removal also happens as a turn-based action at the cleanup step. No, -1/-1 counters remain; if the creature has 0 toughness, regeneration does nothing. Yes, tapping the creature is not a part of the cost to regenerate, rather, a part of the action of regenerating. Damage is not prevented. If non-lethal damage is dealt, that creature will have that damage along with the Regen-shield.
Just thought I'd throw that out there for the previous myriad of inquiries/thoughts.
October 31, 2016 6:53 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #20
"Can I activate it at the start of my turn, and if it dies, it get's removed? No, wait, it get's removed immediately?" Regenerate reads "The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn" so yes, if you activate it at the start, it will last until the end of the turn or the first time the creature would die.
"But damage only wears of when it would die?" Yes.
"Does poison counters or -1/-1 counters also wear off?" No.
"Can I activate the ability if the permanent is tapped?" Yes.
"Wait, damage is not prevented with this?" Damage is removed after it has been applied. It is as "prevented" as damage is when I gain life in response to damage being dealt.
I do agree that it is confusing to new players, but both preventing all damage and indestructible are sizably more powerful, and I feel that would push WotC to print it on less cards.
October 31, 2016 6:54 p.m.
Look at Burn from Within. Before, it may have given a clause such as Incinerate does, but they replaced it with removing indestructible.
I suspect some time in the future (maybe) there will be some sort of Wrath of God card that, instead of preventing regeneration, destroys indestructible creatures.
November 1, 2016 1:12 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #22
I really don't understand how Regenerate can be considered as difficult to understand. I feel like the game is continually getting dumbed down (for a lack of a better way to put it) anymore.
January 1, 2017 1:44 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #23
Because, DarkMagician, using the regenerate ability doesn't actually do anything when you use it. It just creates an invisible 'shield' that has no way of marking itself. It's genuinely confusing for most players (although lots of players think they understand it).
If you claim you understand regenerate 100%, you're probably either a judge, a very invested player or wrong. ;)
Making abilities that players can intuitively grok doesn't dumb down the game - the intelligence in Magic isn't about understanding how abilities work, it's in the strategy behind them.
January 1, 2017 2:10 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #24
Named_Tawyny "It just creates an invisible 'shield' that has no way of marking itself". This would in effect be a delayed trigger, they're quite important to the game so being able to understand them is necessary to play even some of the most mundane games of magic.
The next time this creature would be destroyed it's not. Tap it and remove it from combat... What's so hard to understand? And yes the intelligence is in understanding how abilities work as that's a massive part of both deck construction and strategy!
"If you claim you understand regenerate 100%, you're probably either a judge, a very invested player or wrong."
Counter proposal. How about if you don't understand regenerate (or any other abilities in the game) you go study what the abilities do?... ;)
January 1, 2017 2:38 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #25
Because most players don't have the time or inclination to get to judge level understandings of the rules (that's what judges are for). And the more people who can play and understand the basics, the more popular the game will be.
January 1, 2017 10:57 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #26
You don't need to be a judge to understand the basic rules of each ability. Understanding Deathtouch or Flying or First Strike takes the same amount of brain power to research and understand Regenerate.
January 1, 2017 11:09 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #27
Raging_Squiggle Thank you.
Named_Tawyny Judges aren't meant to be there to tell you how to play the game, their job is to resolve complex issues that arrise during game play and to ensure the rules are followed so that people don't cheat.
January 1, 2017 11:50 p.m.
I'm not fond of them eliminating it, and I'd rather see it go the way of Protection (deciduous, and at higher rarities), as it's one of the few named Alpha mechanics that was still around. But I'm not surprised, and while my reasoning has already been said/alluded to by others, here we go.
Regenerate has a few things fighting against it, though. First off, it IS a complicated mechanic. More specifically, it isn't a super-intuitive mechanic. WotC tests their product with focus groups, some of that being with newer players. Regeneration has never done well in those groups of being done correctly. I still see errors among more enfranchised players. They have been going through and removing anything that hits too high on the comprehension complexity scale, and MaRo has been saying regeneration didn't do well there for YEARS.
Next is the overlap with Indestructable. Not only is it functional, but it also has a flavor overlap. A zombie/skeleton gets indestructible for the same reason it would have gotten regeneration. Same with the troll/plant monster. Sure, there are corner cases were it isn't as apt (the fragile skeleton that keeps putting itself back together after you take it down, but that you can still put down long enough to get past.) But if they feel that is essential flavor, they can still do that with non-keyword abilities (a built in raise dead or maybe sorcery speed self-reanimation, for example)
Ultimately, if you are inclined to complain that WotC is dumbing down the game, go ahead, because this is exactly what they are doing. It's another ripple in the lake that is New World Order (though, this goes past the design of commons). It just has so little impact on the game (they just don't do regeneration that much anymore, for the same reasons as above), that it's just a shot in the nostalgia.
January 2, 2017 4:39 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #29
DarkMagician, that's EXACTLY the point.
With so many people not understanding how regeneration works (we can argue for days if they should be able to understand it, but regardless, the fact is that they don't), it means that judges need to spend more time explaining and fixing misunderstandings around regeneration, which ties them up from helping solve more needed issues.
Change regen to something similar and simpler? Boom. Judges have more time to deal with other things.
January 3, 2017 7:50 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #30
What would be simpler than "the next time this permanent would die, instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat."
January 3, 2017 9:50 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #31
I don't think anything would be simpler. Putting reminder text on it every time they print it could be a step in the right direction, but there's really no simpler way imo.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #2
I preger regeneration, it makes the creature tap and feels more fair. Plus it's a green/black ability (primarily) and so I am a bit biased.
October 31, 2016 4:21 p.m.