Dealing w/ Den-Mist Abzan as Control
Standard Deck Help forum
Posted on July 11, 2015, 12:22 p.m. by ducttapedeckbox
I attended an FNM last night where I ran my UR Counterburn list. I was able to beat out Esper Dragons and UW Control, but lost hard to Abzan Aggro and G/W feat. Dragonlord Dromoka.
I'm considering a splash of either white or black in my list, but can't decide if it will help more than it hurts. My worst two matches are against Abzan Aggro and RDW, where the latter is essentially a lost match. I think I have a chance against the former.
I'm working on obtaining Perilous Vaults to improve this matchup, but is there more I can do? I have at least two sideboard slots open for more Den-Mist hate. More Dissipate? Do I have much to gain from a splash? Languish or Infinite Obliteration? Is the double black too much for a splash?
Another thought/suggestion was to sideboard a 3-2 split of Thunderbreak Regent and Icefall Regent. Thoughts here? Would this even help?
Here is the deck list again for reference:
LOL NO (UR Counterburn) Playtest
Standard*
SCORE: 43 | 12 COMMENTS | 7564 VIEWS
ducttapedeckbox says... #3
@ wish12oz -- It is a control deck. If I start removing control elements for burn, I might as well play burn.
I run 3 Angers, sets of Magma Jet and Lightning Strike, and a set of Circle of Flame in the side.
These, in my opinion, are the most efficient burn spells currently available. Wild Slash is a decent option, but I prefer Lightning Strike for the higher kill potential and Magma Jet for the scry.
Even with all of this, a good RDW pilot can easily play around all of my removal. Collateral Damage is very prevalent in my meta, which makes burning their creatures somewhat pointless. This is, due to the nature of the archetypes, a bad match for control almost regardless of my board plans.
July 11, 2015 3:17 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #5
I honestly would just go with grixis or mardu. Blue doesnt exactly have the best counterspells especially against aggro. If you insist on keeping blue, then grixis or america/jeskai are good options to remain as a more "controlling" deck, or you could go temur and add high value low drops to match what RDW is throwing on the table.
July 11, 2015 5:35 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #6
@ buffy -- I considered Burn Away, I may replace a Roast and the Monastery Sieges with some.
@ UpperDeckerTaco -- I may sideboard a 3-2 split of Thunderbreak Regent / Icefall Regent. Do you have any thoughts on this? I think U/R is the best colors for this deck right now.
July 11, 2015 6:05 p.m.
"It is a control deck. If I start removing control elements for burn, I might as well play burn. "
What th....? Really? You need to remove the crappy burn spells to play spells that allow you to combat decks you can't beat. Your only sweeper is Anger, and you don't play 4. To fight 1 drop decks you need lots of cheap interaction. They play a 1 drop, you kill it with a 1 drop. They try and fling it at you, use dispel to stop them. This is why they beat you. You have a hand of 7 cards on turn 5 that you couldnt play because youre busy not trading your resources with theirs while they dumped their hand and killed you.
Control decks win by trading all their cards for their opponents, then casting a draw spell. Thats it. Creature removal of all forms is important to do that. UR is bad right now, if you really want to play it, you really need to at least build your deck to give you the ability to play the game against other decks.
Magma jet kills nothing against RDWs or Abzan, why even play it? These are your hard match ups. Focus on beating them. Magma spray at least does stuff in one of those matchups (I mean in RDWs, in Abzan it kills 2/2's on their turn when theyre on the play). Think of it like this, your opponent has 5 1 drops, and 2 lands, you have 3-4 lands, and a magma spray a lightning strike and a dissolve.
If theyre on the play, theyve played all their spells by turn 3, youve played one, if your lands didnt come into play tapped, which means you played nothing. This is called tempo, this is why you lose. If you had 3 1 mana spells that actually killed their stuff though.... youd have played 2 or all 3 and not lost half your life, and your opponent would only have the stuff he played right before passing to you. All your Mindswipes, riddle of lightnings, 3 mana counters, anticipates, and 2 digs need to come out if you want to have a chance against these decks. And they need to be replaced by cheaper spells that interact timely with your opponent, or you will not win.
Anyway /walloftext, maybe later I'll talk about Abzan.
July 11, 2015 6:28 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #8
I appreciate the honest feedback, wish12oz. Let me start with two general comments. First, I play this deck because it's different. I get weird looks from most opponents because they have no idea how to play against it. I'm not a spike. Winning is nice, but being able to play a game where I have to think is the best experience for me. I play this deck because it was a budget-friendly control list that can put up decent results at an FNM. Second, my meta is primarily midrange, mostly R/x/x dragons that don't do much until T4-5. There is one consistent RDW player, who is arguably the most skilled player at the store. There is one Abzan Aggro player as well (and last night was the first time I've seen them).
I admit that I am not well-versed in Standard. I only got into it because my LGS doesn't start Modern FNM until after I leave for school. My experience is limited to the three FNM's that I've played at (and detailed on my deck list), so based on there, here are my thoughts:
I'm looking to change up my board to improve these matches, but not destroy others in the process. Are Magma Spray (which, admittedly, I didn't know was reprinted in the Theros block) and Anger of the Gods amazing against RDW? Absolutely. Does Anger also do work against Abzan Aggro? Of course. But where else in my meta do these cards work?
Both can only kill Seeker of the Way in Esper Dragons (given that they don't cast anything in response). I'll knock out Sylvan Caryatids against G/r devotion, after they've already dropped Whisperwood Elemental. Caryatids are also the only possible kill for Anger in Abzan Control. In the other jank decks, I may hit something with Anger but most of the time it's a Regent or another Dragon with 4+ toughness that's fine for 3-mana counters.
Now, Magma Jet and Lightning Strike aren't much better, but at least they can target players. Magma Jet's only redeemable quality that keeps it in my list is the scry, not the kill potential. It's often the target of Game 2 or 3 Thoughtseizes after my opponents realize how beneficial the scry is in Game 1. Whether or not that's a good choice by my opponent (which it usually isn't) isn't overly relevant, as I will not be playing this deck outside of my LGS's FNM events.
Even if I were to mainboard more 1-drop removal spells, where does that leave me against Dragon Fodder and Hordeling Outburst? Even so, he runs a set of Collateral Damage. Then I'm left with Anger as an option, which works until he plays another Outburst or Fodder.
By now I've (hopefully) established that while your suggestions are valid to combat these two decks, it isn't realistic to make such large changes that will improve my games against 2 / 24 players. If I want to continue playing a list that even resembles what I currently play (which I do), RDW is going to be a loss most of the time.
Looking forward, I agree that Riddle is a weak card. It's easy to consistently hit an 8-drop between the four DTT and Ugin, those slots will be better when filled with Perilous Vault. Four Mindswipe is also too many, which I plan to replace with a cheaper 2-mana counter.
July 11, 2015 8:23 p.m.
I have this issue with budget players that are having a hard time against specific decks and start investing money in better cards to beat them, in the end you've saved only 100-150$ and still have a tier 3 deck. I've been playing standard for a while now and wanted to start modern, I've made the mistake of buying a fringe deck I thought was cool but ended up being tier 2.5ish. Couldn't beat the net decks and started not enjoying the game, now I'm all over MTG trade groups trying to not lose all my money selling back 50% at the store.
If you want to play control in standard it's U/B or Esper, why play U/R? Why not go Jeskai Midrange or aggro instead of trying to make a bad control deck work? Also playing red removal in a world of Dromoka's Command is risky as ****, Anger of the Gods doesn't even kill Courser of Kruphix which is a card being ran in 50%+ (I'm not making this number up) of the meta right now. Anyways, I'm done with my rant, here are some tips in beating abzan megamorph, choose your weapon:
Exile (Perilous Vault, Anger of the Gods, Dissipate, Silence the Believers
Flying over and fast (Mantis Rider, Flamewake Phoenix)
Play an Abzan megamorph list with no Thoughtseize and replace them with 4 more threats. Get ready to play long games and learn to play the matchup well.
Going toe to toe with them in the late game is not really what you want to be doing. I only play control and I'm really good at playing the archetype and long games against abzan megamorph are extremely hard but manageable. I think I've managed to make the matchup a coin toss with 50-50 chances on either side, to do so I dropped Esper Dragons and went straight Adrian Sullivan style U/B, here's the list I will be playing once Origins hits : U/B Supremacy. Remember, this is a huge netdeck and I'm a good control player and I'm still having trouble with megamoprh, I cannot even imagine how much trouble you have with U/R!
Anyways, I reallly think you should play Jeskai Midrange, the deck is completely geared towards beating Abzan megamorph with some aggresive early game but some good midgame-lategame too, here's Kevin Jones list : Jeskai Midrange Top 8. Ross Merriam also brewed a Jeskai Midrange List for Origins but I can't find it, I think it's on SCG. Instead of being R/W splash blue the deck is more U/W splash red and it plays Harbinger of the Tides, drops rabblemaster and Stoke the Flames. I think it's worth testing!
ps: I don't recommend investing in U/B because it will probably not survive the rotation, which is another argument for Jeskai which I deeply think will survive it and maybe even become tier 1.
July 12, 2015 12:02 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #10
Thank you for your thoughts, EssTea. I've been straying away from considering myself a budget player (I actually changed my "title" from Budget Builder recently). I am playing this particular list on such a strict budget because I'll only be able to play Standard over the summer (so 4 more FNM's, max). I'm home for the summer, and the nearest store to me while I'm at school that holds FNM is a hassle to get to without a car. You'll see that the only cards of any value are those that will retain most of their value come rotation (Ugin, DTT, and Keranos). The rest of the deck can be thrown together for ~$10 or so.
Most of the changes I've considered are those that will follow this budget guideline. I expect that the only change I will make is adding in a pair of Perilous Vaults, which should hold their post-rotation value for EDH.
I understand that the deck is bottom-tier, but I enjoy playing it. Mindswipe is such a stupid card but is a blast to play. I may not go 4-0 at my FNM, but I get good experience as a control player. One factor that prevents me from getting hosed in every game is that my meta isn't overly competitive. Sure, there's a few people with top-tier decks, but most of them are watered down versions of competitive decks. I'm happy that I'm playing my own rogue build that isn't watered down from anything (unless you look at the control archetype in general, in which case I'm playing straight water).
Honestly, I could have most of Abzan Megamorph right now had I thought about it (not that I would want to play it). I have all of the lands, Thoughtseizes, and I seem to have an affinity for pulling Den Protectors from drafts. I've done 5 drafts with DTK packs, and pulled a Den Protector in four of them. I've since traded 3 away for Modern cards. I even pulled a DP in two straight simulated drafts on T/O. Weird.
Is this the Ross Merriam list you were talking about? I like the looks of it, and own a decent portion of the deck. I'm not sure if it's worth trying if I only have 3-4 more FNMs to attend though.
July 12, 2015 12:30 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #11
Sounds like someone needs to be playing UB Control! xD Especially if noone is playing anything until turns 3-5. Sounds like easy pickins.
Also, UB has good tech -- Drown in Sorrow, Bile Blight, Ultimate Price, and most importantly, the newly printed Languish. That, and you still get to play Perilous Vault.
wish12oz says... #2
I dont understand how you lose to RDW with access to 4x anger of the gods, 4x magma spray, 4x wild slash....
July 11, 2015 2:06 p.m.