Golgari Elves! Origins :) New to Standard need advice!
Standard Deck Help forum
Posted on July 6, 2015, 10:43 a.m. by icehit6
Hiya! I'm really new to Standard. This is actually my first deck I would try to make competitive. I'm in need of some advice for it! Anything is appreciated :) Thanks!
Okay. I can completely understand the problem with Languish and what it's going to cause, however I'm struggling to understand why I should get rid of all of my four drops. I need Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen. Sylvan Messenger not so much.
Would it be more optimal to get rid of the Messenger? And leave the Dwynen, then just put in four more land?
I guess (somewhat) my defense against the Languish would be my Liliana if I could get it to 8. That's in a perfect world however. I'm really new to Standard and do not know what to expect :| (I'm a modern junky). What other words of advice do you have for me? Anything I should particularly get rid of or add in? Spells wise, not creatures, because I think that's pretty solid once I take out Messenger.
July 6, 2015 11:15 a.m.
And as well, if I ever have an issue with Languish, can't I just use Stain the Mind for it? I think that'd be a good way to get rid of it if I can get that out early.
July 6, 2015 11:21 a.m.
I recently put together a Elven Origins build and I've been having some luck with it currently. If you want to check it out, you can go here.
July 6, 2015 12:42 p.m.
Obviously the deck in general will be weak to Languish, but I specifically meant in regards to not being able to rely on your mana dorks staying in play. After board, you're better off going to discard spells since presumably any deck with Languish will also have Drown in Sorrow after sideboard as well. You don't need to strip them of it completely, just stop whatever sweeper they have in hand.
You certainly don't need to cut all the four drops, like I said they are some of your premium pay offs, but you do need to balance things. Either land count needs to go up or the CMC needs to come down. Also, with regards to Collected Company it's just too important to hit the numbers on it to minimize missing or only hitting one creature. Keep in mind that some of your "hits" are stuff like Elvish Mystic. Collected Company is arguably the best card in the deck and you want it to have a good impact every time you cast it.
Personally, I would cut Reave Soul and move Eyeblight Massacre to the sideboard from the current iteration. Use those 6 slots to add back 2 Sylvan Messenger, 1 Dwynen's Elite, 1 Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen, and 2 Chord of Calling.
July 6, 2015 12:50 p.m.
Thank you for all the help guys :) Yeah I really love elves and was considering the Chord of Calling addition because it could be pretty strong. I already have a playset, so adding in two wouldn't hurt me.
July 6, 2015 1:13 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #10
I am of the opinion that Collected Company just isn't worth running in the standard elf deck, and that you're better off maxing out on Sylvan Messengers and Chord of Callings. My reasoning is that most of the elves you can hit with CoCo are low-impact, as the best cards (Dwynen and Sylvan Messenger) are both more than 3 mana and the number of creatures you can hit with CoCo in standard elves is actually relatively low.
Also you should consider cutting Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip and something else for a few copies of Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip. She's an elf that helps you hit your land drops with potentially huge upside in the late game.
I made a prototype list you can check out here for ideas: Standard B/G Elf Tribal.
July 6, 2015 3:24 p.m. Edited.
The thing about CoCo is that they are 2 free creatures. A great way to get the right cards at the top (Dwynen's Elite, Shaman of the Pack, ect) would be Liliana Vess. Although, I do understand about standard elves not being the best right now, but still. Most aggro decks running green run CoCo because of the instant speed drop effect of creatures regardless of impact.
Just my opinion.
July 6, 2015 3:31 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #12
@SirFowler I certainly agree that CoCo is great in many decks, I'm just arguing that since most standard elves lists only run ~22 creatures with CMC 3 or less, you're only at about 73% to hit two. That's not really where you want to be. If a 3-drop elf lord gets printed in BFZ, CoCo is definitely the right card for the deck. But for now, I'm of the opinion that Sylvan Messenger is a better 4-drop since with 30 creatures or so you're almost always going to hit at least 2 cards. The odds are just better, and my (admittedly limited) testing of the deck on the site's playtester has confirmed this.
July 6, 2015 3:39 p.m.
The one problem about building decks right now before origins is because they are fully released quite yet. I think we should hold off on completing deck lists because you never know what they might print in the future. There might be some elf lords with CMC 3 or less, but like I said, you never know.
July 6, 2015 3:47 p.m.
I don't see the problem with the Liliana Planeswalker. Yeah, I understand that Nissa helps me hit my land drops, however I haven't seemed to have a mana issue from all the times I've tested the deck. And as well, It's really really strong, allowing me to have my opponent discard cards that are potentially important to them, and because I'm playing mana ramp I won't have to, and as well me getting a strong late game emblem which makes it so when any creature enters the graveyard I put it under my control. Liliana seems a lot better of a pick because it's a huge early game threat with discards, and the mid game threat with the emblem and discards going into late game too. I feel as if it's too strong to pass up.
And even if, you're not always guaranteed a land drop Nissa. So with it, it's either a hit or miss anyways. At least with Liliana, you've got a guaranteed effect.
July 6, 2015 4:09 p.m.
Akamaru015 says... #15
Hey there i've been looking for a golgari Elves to play as well, there is something you need to be aware of this deck will not fit standard listings due to M15 and theros block cards will cycle in October which means you only get about 2.5 months with this deck, this is kind of long but some of these cards are expensive to get. (these cards that will be cycling are Elvish mystic, chord of calling, Garruk apex, Heroes downfall, plummet,and bile blight) with that being said, I personally do believe Raksasha death dealer would be a great add to the deck.
Now most of these cards have GREAT replacements here's a list for youElvish mystic --- Honored Hierarch
(this next one you have to work around a win condition for but heres a few that can work)
Chord of calling --- Evolutionary leap, Gather the pack, OR just keep Temple of company and use the new 4 slots for a WIN condition i don't see one maybe Gaes Revenge as a 3 of use the 4th slot for a land, or you can use scout the borders in-case you don't find a creature you can grab a land
Reclamation sage --- there's alot of removal for artifacts and enchants like Naturalize and this is instant speed, but keep them in side board, instead use this slot for Reclaim, to get back any elves or spells that you sacrificed for evolutionary leap
Plummet --- Murderous cut, this will probably be replaced in Battle for Zendikar in sept but this is a cheap kill card and heroes down fall is expensive for a cycling card in standard
Temple of malady --- well.... looking at the balance of lands to mana... id say two forest two swamp. loosing scry lands will be sad :(
Stain the mind --- Infinite obliteration, especially as a side board you should already know what you want to get rid of even if stain the mind was staying this is cheaper and SO much better for you. Especially since it does the same thing but you don't get to search their hand and match it will the deck. now you get to call a card and get rid of them so they don't HAVE to have it in their hand
Heroes downfall --- well this ones hard but we are loosing alot of kill spells.with the new mana ramper for one of any color you could splash a LITTLE white like maybe blossoming sands in place of two or three of temple of malady and then you can sub in a utter end it is really worth it for the kill spell that will allow you to target non land, and exile it so works around indestructible
Now as for what cards i think you should replace in generalInstead of having 8 search cards i mean having chord of calling (or a replacemnt) AND collected company when you dont really have a creature win condition it seams you want to build up elves and then not use them for anything but using shamen pack, you would need EVERY elf in your deck out that's not really good, so unless you put in gaes Revenge i suggest putting in more buffs like 4x might of the masses, and then replace 1 Reclamation sage, 1 elvish mystic (or its replacement) 1 shamen of the pack, and 1 gnarl root trapper, for 4x of ONE of the following sets Either another elf being sylvan messenger, OR somberwald alpha, OR Managorger Hydra.
this will allow you to buff of of these sets of 4 with Might of the masses all of which either have trample built in OR can give it to someone else this way you have a win condition that is flexible BUT you must have a mass of creatures so you will need 4x dwens elite to maximize your creature base combine this with gaes revenge and you now have two very likely win conditions that hit harder and my suggestion would be either Managorger hydra or sylvan messenger because they both help build their own strength OR help you build the feild
thats what i think it needs, it just lacks Cycle protection and a solid win condition, remember golgari likes to dabble in grave yards and deathtouch so look into grave yard retrieval instead of draw retrieval. this will allow you to keep the flied states that you build instead of having to fear kill spells
July 8, 2015 6:39 a.m.
Akamaru015 says... #16
Oh and btw i do think lili and nissa are use full here for two reasons, 1 you will never have a hand because of such a low cost base, (that is if you go with my changes in my previous comment, otherwise your creature search is late game and you may end up discarding it) so Liliana discard affects decks with high cost creatures or counter decks.
and on the other hand i noticed you said if its a land it helps if not its worthless and not guaranteed, this is not true. because "...if its not a land, put it into your hand" it gives you a FREE draw in elves this is MASSIVE
July 8, 2015 6:43 a.m.
Akamaru015 says... #17
(sorry reading some more comments but) no fear with the future the current list IS whats in the set as it has been shipped out and is at stores all ready there will be no changes as of jan 2nd, as for the next set, if you were playing back in 2011 you should notice what happened last time elves and artifacts arose to power before we went BACK to zandikar... be ready for the eldrazi. there will be more elves and goblins because they are seemingly this blocks theme BUT zandikar is a NEW block because now blocks are only 2 sets. this does not mean that elves have to stay, but my prediction is infect and/or Eldrazi just like Zandikar when we last arrived there on the plane. OH and i expect full art land to come back :D
July 8, 2015 6:48 a.m.
Akamaru, after reading all that I agree with you on some things, however I'm just going to focus on the comment about the planeswalker. You say that Nissa is good because she gives you a free draw every turn, and helps you with your land. However, if you notice, she cannot be flipped unless you have 7 land or more. So basically, she is worthless to play unless you have 6 land on the battlefield. And then on the 6th turn, all you can do is draw a card with her, or put a 4/4 elemental creature token onto the battlefield. It's too slow.
If you have Liliana, you can theoretically (with Elves) play her turn two. Then if any creature on the entire board dies, then she morphs into a planeswalker. That's a HUGE board presence, potentially at turn two. If you leave her out, and attack with weak creatures, unless you're severely outnumbered in creatures, your opponent won't block in order to not morph her into a planeswalker (early at least). And if you have blockers, your opponent potentially won't attack because if their creature dies, or your creatures dies, it morphs. Liliana is such a huge board presence in that sense, and definitely is better than Nissa in every way, shape and form for competitive play. Seven turns for a planeswalker is just far too slow, considering how fast some decks are going to be with the new block.
Slycne says... #2
A few thoughts -
18 lands is far too few. A couple of mana dorks won't make up for hitting your land drops, especially in a format where Languish is going to be a key card. Many of your premium spells are 4 drops. 22-24 lands is more where you want to be.
The math for Collected Company is that you want at least 22 creatures to hit minimum. You're at 21 once you cut the 4 drops.
Eyeblight Massacre and Reave Soul are pretty low in power level or sideboard cards at best.
July 6, 2015 11:08 a.m.