Grixis control - Black or Red for removal?
Standard Deck Help forum
Posted on July 13, 2017, 9:18 a.m. by AgentGreen
I'm trying to build up a grixis control deck for Hour of Devastation, but I'm struggling on deciding which of the 2 removal colors I should go hard with; leaving only the other to get Bolas down.
any thoughts?
AgentGreen says... #3
My concern is against argo; especially if Rhonas's Last Stand becomes a thing, is that Abrade just isn't going to cut it.
Harnessed Lightning is a good choice I agree, and I do plan on running both Glimmer and a few Aether Hubs
I have a full playset of pushes; so that helps
July 13, 2017 10 a.m.
That's why Fatal Push is a gem card! I would say, if you're running Push and the energy package, the ideal setup would be:
4 Fatal Push
2-3 Abrade
4 Harnessed Lightning
and sideboarded Magma Sprays, Radiant Flames, the rest of the Abrades, and Hour of Devastation. It's important to have so many answers for early Heart of Kiran and also stuff like Lord of the Accursed and Diregraf Colossus.
It shouldn't be hard to configure the mana for this thanks to the singleton mana requirements.
July 13, 2017 10:15 a.m. Edited.
I faced this dilemma and went with
Then I splashed for , to give myself more chance to cast Grasp of Darkness
The disruption spells usually give you more bang for your buck as they outright destroy Creatures, rather than dealing damage that might prove not enough.
Even if they reduce a Creature's Toughness it is usually by more than what a spell with the same CMC could.
Here's what you get with :
If you splash that means that you can also rely on disruption such as:
Then you save for Hour of Devastation
If you want you can have a look at my take with Destroy the Gatewatch
July 13, 2017 10:15 a.m.
AgentGreen says... #6
Funny you say that Argy, because I'm using your Bolas deck as a template.
Question; with the land makeup you have; can you get double- by T5 so you can drop HoD to clear the board?
July 13, 2017 11:04 a.m.
My point about going red is that it makes the mana easier, but it's also just more compatible with blue counterspells because it's cheaper. That's why UR control is a thing and UB isnt. You can interact earlier (like t1 early) and, significantly, on turns 4-5 you can hold up both removal and counterspells. Good opponents will try to force through an unremovable threat by baiting counterspells with other good targets. Being able to remove a problem creature like Tireless Tracker EoT without giving room for them to resolve a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar same turn saves you the game.
Plus the point of running counterspells is to catch problem things before they hit the board; pairing counterspell suites with cheap removal means your gameplan is to save your counters for whatever your red can't clean up. Luckily with Hour of Devastation your counterspells are relieved of some pressure too!
And the more consistent your mana, the better. I'd highly recommend 25-26 land.
July 13, 2017 11:23 a.m. Edited.
AgentGreen says... #8
So I guess the question is should I ignore early draw like Anticipate or Supreme Will and go for red removal.
I do want to have the opportunity to get Bolas down by T7-8.
But I will have Torrentials, those bastards are just too good for me not to use them as win-cons
July 13, 2017 11:35 a.m.
abby315 it's not a good argument to say that people run Control decks, as opposed to , because is an entirely different beast.
gives you no access to a Creature Land, for a start.
doesn't allow you to utilise your by sinking it into Harnessed Lightning.
However, the moment you start talking about three colours, you are making different choices than those ones.
You have 10 chances out of 26 to hit , so I'd say that gives you a good opportunity to cast Hour of Devastation on Turn 5, however I think that is the wrong way of looking at things.
As long as you can cast it by Turn 7, it will have an impact on the game.
July 13, 2017 11:58 a.m.
AgentGreen says... #10
If you can get to T7. Argo is quite heavy in my metta
July 13, 2017 12:28 p.m.
Yeah but you're GONNA, AgentGreen.
You're playing heavy Control.
You can answer everything they play in their first three to four turns.
Show me any deck where you are guaranteed to play five lands in a row PLUS draw into the other spells you need.
That deck does not exist.
A board wipe by Turn 7 is JUST FINE with this deck.
In some ways it's better, because you will hit more of their stuff.
July 13, 2017 4:04 p.m. Edited.
AgentGreen says... #12
Argy I used your deck as a baseline for my deck; check it out (or your pal Bolas can) and let me know what you think
Bow down to the power of Bolas
Standard*
1 VIEW
July 18, 2017 8:57 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #13
I am personally going a different route, by just using black as the splash color. And trying to find room for at least 2 Fatal Push either main or side. I went with a small splash of black as to maintain consistency with mana going U/R and keeping manlands as a priority in this standard to close out games easier.
There are only 2 black cards I am splashing for in the main:
Unlicensed Disintegration and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh.
In the sideboard I just upped the number of Unlicensed Disintegration and added a copy of To the Slaughter.
I want to make room for the Pushes but don't know what to cut. And I don't want to hinder my mana base anymore as I have played different variations of grixis decks this standard, and the mana is just not that good to support grixis in my opinion. Sure it has enough duals, but the majority of the time, they come into play tapped and the meta has been stacked heavily with aggro decks:
G/B Energy aggro
Temur Energy Aggro/Midrange
Emerge - bit of a combo/aggro shell
Zombies
Mono-Red
(Just to name a few)
Therefore, tap lands are just not great on turns 2 and 3 for a control deck. I don't mind them on Turns 1, 4 and sometimes 5, but I cannot wait to get my colors online by turn 3 or 4. You have to ensure you are interacting as early as turn 2 and 3 in this format.
And using Rhonas's Last Stand as a primary argument for Fatal Push, I don't feel as to be a valid argument. Because if they want to take a turn off to play 1 spell as their Turn 2 and essentially Turn 3 play, that's fine with me, just gives me more time. Plus that card more than likely will not see too much play due to Fatal Push being such a blowout, most Green decks cannot risk it. Now I am not saying Push is bad, but I don't think it is 100% necessary as a 4 of in this format unless you have no other options.
July 19, 2017 12:15 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco when you "splash" a colour you generally only have a couple of cards in that colour to play when your curve is high enough.
That gives you time to get your three colours.
People might also refer to splashing a colour if they don't have many of those cards in their deck.
You aren't doing either of these things.
If you have Fatal Push, Unlicensed Disintegration, and To the Slaughter in your deck, I don't call that "splashing"
With the way that I've set up the mana in Destroy the Gatewatch I've weighed it more towards check lands, and lands that will help them come in untapped.
The tempo is actually excellent in the early game, due to this.
Fatal Push isn't for Rhonas's Last Stand. It's primarily for Heart of Kiran, as Mardu Vehicles decks have reemerged in the meta.
It's also good value against Monument decks to get rid of Selfless Spirit, and Sylvan Advocate, which is still running around.
It's a mistake to plan on decks not running cards, like Rhonas's Last Stand, due to Sideboard options.
People assumed that with Mardu Vehicles, due to all the Artifact removal cards, and it is still being played.
July 19, 2017 8:41 a.m.
AgentGreen says... #15
Argy That's why in my version I have Abrade in the SB so I can deal with artifacts, especially if Oketra's monument really becomes a thing
July 19, 2017 10:34 a.m.
AgentGreen says... #16
UpperDeckerTaco I am planning on replacing the cycle lands for the check lands IF they are confirmed to be in Ixalan
July 19, 2017 10:37 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #17
Argy I would say I am splashing. I only have a Bolas and a Disintegration main and a Disintegration and Slaughter in the board. 4 cards total in 75, I would say it's a splash
July 19, 2017 11:55 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #18
Also, i would rather play Abrade for vehicles and monument over Push even if it does cost 1 more to cast because of the flexibility and I do not have to wait until they crew to kill their HoK and Monument is very important to kill and the games they have it are vastly different than games they do not
July 19, 2017 11:58 a.m.
I guess in the end it comes down to different metas and choices.
With Mardu Vehicles there are more things to deal with than just Heart of Kiran, as those decks can also win without that card.
Fatal Push will hit Toolcraft Exemplar and Veteran Motorist, faster than Abrade, and those are two early hitters that can make all the difference.
As I already pointed out, Fatal Push will ALWAYS be able to hit Sylvan Advocate, whereas Abrade won't.
You play whatever works for you.
abby315 says... #2
Assuming you're going heavy blue for counterspells (i.e. Need double blue for things like Disallow) red is the better choice. Black has slightly more value at 2 mana (Grasp of Darkness deals with 4 toughness creatures while Abrade handles only 3) but red is easier on mana, gives you access to better sweepers (Radiant Flames > yahenni's expertise) and some relevant answers to problem creatures like Magma Spray.
However I think a couple Fatal Push are worthwhile regardless. Otherwise I think you're looking at:
4 Abrade (especially if you don't run push)
2 Magma Spray
Harnessed Lightning if you're playing Glimmer of Genius
And side or mainboard Radiant Flames and Hour of Devastation.
July 13, 2017 9:45 a.m.