UB Zombies Deck in Need of Feedback and Suggestions.
Standard Deck Help forum
Posted on July 25, 2016, 11:48 a.m. by Sain_Cheese
With the release of Eldritch Moon, I felt like UB could be fairly competitive so here's my attempt at making a good deck. Completely open to ideas. All ratings and feedback are greatly appreciated.
Thank you in Advance!
Sain_Cheese says... #3
Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip doesn't trigger Prized Amalgam unfortunately. All though I have considered playing her in. She's good regardless but, I only have one copy of her.
Sanitarium Skeleton Works beautifully with Relentless Dead which in turn triggers Prized Amalgam Seeing how black is so hungry for mana, having a few 1 drop zombies is great. It's like a Thraben Inspector in GW tokens.
Graf Harvest is strictly for menace on all zombies, something that has proven to be very effective. You're right though, secondary ability really messes with my deck which is why I don't use that. I'm open to replace this card, just don't know what to effectively replace it with.
I agree with the removal which is why I have it side-boarded. Voldaren Pariah Flip is my black Avacyn, so to speak, which has worked out really well but also a in response removal to her trigger is devastating which is why I try my best to time her play.
Overall this deck has done well against GW tokens, it's resiliency is pretty amazing.
July 25, 2016 12:58 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #4
Er I stand corrected, you meant her -2 ability when she flips. Sorry about that. I that case it does Trigger Prized Amalgam
July 25, 2016 1:07 p.m.
GreenYawgmoth says... #5
I would absolutely be mainboarding removal in this deck. most of your creatures are going to be 2/2s with no way to get rid of the disgusting amount of x/3s in standard right now.
I'd drop Sanitarium Skeleton (because a 1/2 that does nothing in play is barely even worth playing in limited) for Murder and/or Ruinous Path, and probably dump Gisa's Bidding too for more removal.
Bump Cryptbreaker up to 4, that's the kind of 1-drop you want. I'd also pack at least 1, likely 3 Languish because without it any Wx humans deck is going to run over you.
I'd leave Graf Harvest in the SB for tokens/humans if you find yourself really wanting menace, but it really feels like a card that isn't going to do enough work enough times to be justified. Maybe try Ob Nixilis Reignited since that gets you more kill, more card draw, and can flat-out win you the game on its own.
Lastly, definitely go out and get another Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip because she is going to do so much work in your deck you might even get a third.
July 26, 2016 3:28 p.m.
after looking at this, I disagree with a lot of the suggestions people gave here, specifically regarding removal. I know this may sound crazy, but I think in this standard you don't really need removal unless you are playing full blown control...wait, hear me out. The best decks in the entire format use very little removal. GW tokens has a couple spells total (2-6 removal spells main deck), Wx humans uses 2 total, Bant CoCo uses NONE. The reason these decks as so successful is because the find ways to either cheat out creatures or just play more than you can. I think in this build you want to go up to 4 crypt breakers, and up to 3 graf harvests, and have those as your 1 drops. then ditch the skeletons and replace them with 4 diregraf colossus (they help you build up an army). then put in one or two cards like necromantic summons in to guarantee you get you amalgams back. I wouldn't run from under the floorboards, gisa's bidding, or voldaran pariah without madness enablers. I really like the pariah, despite the fact I can be responded to instant speed like said above, but lets get real, no one would ever try using her trigger if their opponent has mana open in the first place unless it was a desperate last ditch effort. but I wouldn't take her out completely though. running 1 could be a nice mid to late game board changer, but right now all you have is crypt breaker as a madness enabler and it cost 2 to activate. also think about advanced stitchwing. it only costs 3 and 2 cards to get back from the yard, which means you can discard 2 prized amalgams, then get the stitchwing back into play and it brings the amalgams with it. 3 mana for 2 3/3's and a 3/4 flier is bonkers good.
July 26, 2016 4:47 p.m.
i forgot to say one more thing, to help sell my point above. say you are playing against GW tokens, and they went first. at the end of their turn 4 and the beginning of yours, they have Gideon, nissa, 2 0/1 plant tokens, 1 2/2 knight token, sylvan advocate, and thraben inspector. that's a whopping 5 creatures and 2 planeswalkers in 4 turns. you likely at this point have cryptbreaker, relentless dead, and prized amalgam, if you are lucky. so turn four you could languish, like suggested, and then everything is dead and your turn ends. turn 5, they use their walkers and put out another 0/1 and 2/2, and still have 5 mana open to: play avacyn, or 2 advocates and an inspector, or 1 inspector and sac the clue to top deck another card like advocate. at the end of turn 5 they will have 5 creatures and 2 walkers at best or 2 creatures and 2 walkers at worst, to your nothing at all. The decks in this format are designed to be able to recover almost immediately from board wipes, so you are better off just playing your gisa and geralf turn 4, and have 4 creatures to their 5, but stronger creatures, and start filling your graveyard with zombies to cast out of it.
July 26, 2016 6:37 p.m.
GreenYawgmoth says... #8
Bant doesn't run removal, but it does run a lot of creature-based tempo/disruption and if you think that Eldrazi Displacer and Reflector Mage aren't doing the same job as removal, you haven't been playing with or against the deck. As you said, it doesn't run much/any removal because it cheats creatures out which (a) this deck is doing precisely zero of, and (b) even if it were, it wouldn't be doing at instant speed with huge ETB effects. Comparing the game plan of BU zombies to Bant CoCo's game plan is as absurd (and wrong) as comparing manaless dredge to modern jund.
GW tokens doesn't need removal because it's horking out two free creatures a turn at the minimum, which are likely big enough to eat whatever attacks into them, and it still runs Declaration in Stone SB for the mirror. You'll also note that I didn't suggest Languish for GW tokens; I said for Wx humans because human decks are just a Sligh deck in a different color. a t4 board wipe again humans is going to keep you in the game another handful of turns, playing another zombie is not.
Bottom line is that you aren't going to be as fast as humans, as resilient as tokens, or as bomby as CoCo so you need to have a way to mitigate that. Being able to wipe the board against CoCo/humans and shift the numbers in your favor against tokens is exactly what having Kalitas and a good fist of removal available does. Trying to build a BU deck using the concepts as a bant or Wx deck is a great way to go 0-2 drop every night until Kaladesh.
July 27, 2016 3:23 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #9
Very good, and valid points in all ends. Feedback has been superb and given me key insight on different perceptions of other decks. I also own a GW tokens, 4 Gideon, 4 Nissa, 4 hangerback, 4 sylvans, etc. Very very similar to the the GW that won the shadows protour and is the deck i have been putting this one up against. Overall the results have been consistent and both decks are pretty compareable as far as how wide they go.
The thing two things so far in the deck that are proving to be the most consistent in the deck is its resiliency, as well as, believe it or not, Voldaren Pariah Flip
She's my black avacyn so to speak who has proven to be a valuable game changer. I'm bumping it up to a 3 of and possibly 4, not sure yet. The simple fact is the card produces game changing result. Arguing that it's easily to removed is a pretty invalid argument, everything is easily removed considering the amount and type of removal currently in rotation. IE: exile > dmg spells.
In theory, it should be a perfect answer to collective company. ( I do not own a Bant Company deck.. hard to test agaisnt) End step collective company, creatures hit the board, creatures triggers happen, cryptbreaker tap 2 spell 2/2 zombie in response to triggers, madness in Voldaren, sacrifice three, they sacrifice three and should be left with no creatures or "illegal targets".
Both Bant Company and GW tokens are highly predictable, it's just being able to do something about it that matters.
That said I have decided to change a few things around that I'll update here in a bit. Once I have a little bit more time. Fleshbag Marauder is going to replace my one drop skeleton as well as a few other things.
Please keep the feedback up, every little bit helps and I greatly appreciate the opinions of everyone here. As always, thank you in advance!
July 27, 2016 6:06 p.m.
i apologize to green yawgmoth if you feel slighted by my comments, that's not my intention. the point was to point out that removal is borderline useless against these strategies, BECAUSE they recover so fast. and not so coincidentally, why they run SO LITTLE REMOVAL. They figured it out pretty fast,..........removal does not work against decks running instant speed creatures 2 at a time, or planeswalkers dropping creatures 2 at a time. THEY figured out long ago that board wipes ALWAYS play IN THEIR FAVOR. so wasting slots on a fistful of removal will also give you a clear path to an 0-2 then drop all the way until kaladesh also. that is, unless all you run is removal, and right know grixis control and dark past are the only two decks featuring heavy removal that can even compete, but alas, still cannot get over that hump of the tier one decks. people have tried for months, while the tier one deck players laugh at how easy it is to win. This is not the same standard as khans standard, where board wipes and spot removal were an absolute must. this is a standard where 2/3's and tokens run you over because while you are playing removal instead of a threat, they are just continuing to play threats and watch you nervously fight a losing battle.
July 27, 2016 6:46 p.m.
oh, one other thing. comparing the game plans of two very different decks, is how intelligent people playing this game brainstorm for new ideas. Which is exactly what was asked for in this thread. suggestions. ideas. comparing two decks that will eventually have to face each other is anything but absurd. in fact, NOT comparing two decks that would have to face each other is absurd, and amateurish.
July 27, 2016 6:52 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #12
Totally agree with ya.
Bant Company and GW tokens are only two of the "big boy" decks. (The two who have the biggest target nonetheless but still only 2) Wheenie whites, or whatever they're calling it now, has also made some headway as well as BG Gitrog tireless tracker and mono blue prism/ walker Esper control decks. They are all viable in standard. If I solo made this deck to counter just two of the top 8 without any other decks given a second thought, then it probably isn't going to do well in tournament style regardless.
I'm also taking into consideration BG Dilerium for.. reasons as well as the return off GR ramp. Eldritch Evolution has me pondering. Also UW spirits but more than likely these, if at all, will be tier 2 decks.. which means they're still a threat regardless.
Which is why I'm enjoying the feedback as well as not outright disregarding removal/counter spells.
July 27, 2016 7:39 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #13
Small adjustments have been made to MB and SB.
Most notable is Fleshbag Marauder (MB) who barely won out over Stitchwing Skaab (SB) and Diregraf Colossus.
Ultimately, diregraf will probably end up winning the spot upon further testing.
Fleshbag had the biggest board impact overall. Stitchwing had value too, triggers Almagam and easy to get out for 2 mana but the impact was slightly less effective and overall slower. Relentless Dead and Cryptbreaker regularly put Prized Almagam in the discard pile (graveyard) and trigger him.
Things on the cutting board are Graf Harvest and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet.
Graf Harvest is still proving useful, and unless I can find a more suitable 1 drop card to replace it through brainstorming and suggestions, it will probably stay.
As amazing as a card as Kalitas is, I feel like it doesn't perform to its potential with this deck. With Fleshbag in kalitas does better. However, in many instances, I've found that Gisa's Bidding or Gisa and Geralf are the better four drops, since I don't have a four drop walker that poops out tokens. (OR a four drop walker period).
July 27, 2016 8:45 p.m.
there is another one drop card in your colors you could consider, though not a zombie. Sidisi' Faithful. not even for it's bounce effect, which is nice, but a 4 toughness blocker turn one is nothing to scoff at. And I agree with the gisa and geralf over kalitas, but for this build specifically. I like the fleshbag marauder someone suggested, that's a solid three drop. against the more controllish decks you listed I would play compelling deterrence as at least a 2 if not 4 of, because it bounces permanents, and makes them discard if you have zombies, so its an obvious slam dunk against planeswalkers, and anytime you can make control lose cards in hand, you are seriously hurting them
GreenYawgmoth says... #2
I would run flip Lili to trigger Prized Amalgam, and Sanitarium Skeleton seems really bad. Gisa's Bidding is okay "okay, maybe" at best and Graf Harvest is actively opposing your strategy by eating stuff out of your graveyard. You have no removal outside of Lili, LH and possibly Pariah (assuming they don't kill/blast it in response to the transform trigger) to do things with Kali, which is not where you want to be.
July 25, 2016 12:32 p.m.