Abzan Dull :p
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 1, 2015, 11:22 a.m. by MTGbrewer
Who else is tired of seeing abzan every where without any variation? It is starting to annoy me that every time I go to my local game store for fnm 1/2 the people are playing abzan. Who else is it starting to annoy?
alexthegreat38 says... #3
It's annoying me to no end as well, especially because I play colors that have a difficult time removing it. They got pretty much all of the best cards: Fleecemane Lion is probably the best 2-drop in standard, Siege Rhino is undoubtedly the best 4-drop in standard, they have Hero's Downfall, Abzan Charm (which is 5,000,000 times better than any of the other charms), now Valorous Stance, and then Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Nissa, Worldwaker. It's gross. Really gross. I was hoping they would print the cards in FRF to make another deck a contender, but they really didn't. Now we have to hold out for DTK to make other decks competitive. I am tired of it as well -.-
February 1, 2015 11:30 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
Please read the forum descriptions before posting. The TappedOut forum is for site support and discussion. This is Standard discussion. Moved.
February 1, 2015 12:19 p.m.
I don't understand what the problem is. Abzan has weaknesses just like every other deck out there. If you're expecting to play against it, then play a deck that beats it.
February 1, 2015 1:05 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #7
if you know your deck is bad against it, why don't you play something else? the fact that you know everyone is playing is exactly why you should be doing well, not poorly. also, abzan has at least a few variations. agro with Rakshasa Deathdealer, midrange, normally with whip or a superfriends style of deck, and then there is control.
February 1, 2015 1:08 p.m.
Not to mention it has access to Thoughtseize, the best hand interruption spell ever printed. I feel ya man. its just a really strong deck, thats why its so damn popular. With all the powerful cards in the colors, why wouldnt you run abzan?
February 1, 2015 2 p.m.
Sorry 'bout wrong forum. I am new to it and this is the first one I started.Also my problem isn't that it is good (even IF that is why people are playing it) my problem is that 2 out of 4 games I play at Fnm are against abzan decks. Because so many people play it I don't get to play against a lot of fun weird decks that some home brewers use. Half the fun for me is seeing what bizare combinations i will play. (also I don't lose to them a lot I normally go 3-1).
February 1, 2015 2:08 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #10
Well then I don't think tournament play is for you. In tourneys, people play what wins, not what's fun.
February 1, 2015 2:10 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #11
Anyone complaining about a "lack of variation" in Abzan really doesn't know what they're talking about. The differences between Abzan aggro, Abzan midrange, Abzan Whip are vast. Not to mention all the other viable decks in standard.
February 1, 2015 2:19 p.m.
My buddy used to have a casual FNM in his garage every week, Try to get something going. kick out net deckers. Would be awesome for all the other folks at your store who feel the same way
February 1, 2015 2:22 p.m.
It seems like your complaint is that people are playing what THEY want to play and not what YOU want them to play. I don't know what you expect people to say. It's not like your going to force them to play something they don't want to just so you can see more variety. Assuming your store uses the software provided by wizards, pairs are matched up based on results (i.e. undefeated players play undefeated players and players with no wins play other players with no wins), so if you really want to play those homebrew decks then you either need to tell them to do better so you can get paired up against them when your winning. Or, you need to start losing so you can drop down to their level and get paired up. Unless you manage to physically talk them into something different, you have no control over what deck your opponent plays. In the end, your just wasting time and energy pouting about it.
February 1, 2015 2:24 p.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #14
We're not wasting time and energy. Venting is a thing, and that's all we non-Abzan players need most of the time. There's obviously nothing we can do about it. We don't expect to change anything...but that doesn't mean we're not annoyed by it. I hope they balance out Standard soon.
February 1, 2015 2:35 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #15
Again, standard is balanced. You know what did well last week? Sultai decks, Green devotion decks, G/B Constellation decks, U/B control, Abzan aggro, Abzan midrange.
Just because you're oblivious to the meta doesn't mean standard isn't balanced.
February 1, 2015 2:37 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #16
Forgot R/W aggro. U/W Heroic is also another viable deck. Standard is incredibly diverse.
February 1, 2015 2:38 p.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #17
Not oblivious to the meta. MTGTop8 says the meta is 36% Abzan Midrange, and my experiences at FNM backs that up.
February 1, 2015 2:39 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #18
Oh your anecdotal evidence backs it up? Yikes, guess actual results no longer matter.
When debating the meta, it's usually more important to look at the winningest decks, not decks that are played the most. The decks that win more are what you'll see more at top tables, and are what you actually need to focus on beating.
Let's look at the SCG open's Top 8, the only one since FRF dropped:http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=19&t%5BT1%5D=1&start_date=2015-01-24&end_date=2015-01-24&state=DC&city=Washington&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks#content_decks_modern-tab
Only one Abzan midrange list, and 2 Abzan aggro lists. (Which prior to FRF was the most dominant deck, so I don't know why you're fixated on Abzan midrange) And then five other distinct archetypes. If you don't think standard is wide open right now, I don't know what to say. Abzan aggro might have an edge, but there is no clear "best deck" in the format for it to be stale.
Sucks if your shop has many people playing the same 75, but that doesn't mean standard is imbalanced.
February 1, 2015 2:46 p.m.
Ooops........ I am going to hide in a hole until this blows over.......
February 1, 2015 3:21 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #20
Personally, I am very happy about the abzan infested meta. I play u/w control and I have an excellent matchup against abzan. I think SCG meta is different from local metas, and his meta may very well be Abzan dense. if that is the case, I don't really know what to tell you. you cant control what your opponent plays. if you don't have difficulty with the deck, then I don't see a problem. there are lots of abzan decks (they are by no means dominant, even if they are everywhere) at higher level tournaments, so why not just think of it as practice for any bigger events in your area
February 1, 2015 3:55 p.m.
I don't think some people got the fact that I was not talking about competition just that is what everybody is playing around me (all abzan midrange....)
February 1, 2015 3:58 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #22
Okay, but what I am saying is this: so what? I apologize if this sounds douchey, but im not sure what else to say here. you cant control it, so why be so upset about it? be happy that you do well against it, get some packs, and enjoy the few different matches you do get
February 1, 2015 4:01 p.m.
but CommanderOfBolas, he wants to play against more homebrews. So clearly these guys playing the abzan decks are just being assholes for not doing what he wants. I think we should be looking for these other guys and putting them in their place. Letting them know that he doesn't want to play against abzan anymore so they have to play something else. I mean there's literally nothing else anyone could do about it so why not, lol.
February 1, 2015 4:10 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #24
I mean, all I know is when I join a tournament I do so with the express purpose of losing. Thus, I shun any deck that has ever done well and play with a collection of 75 cards I can call my own.
This is a reasonable way of spending money on tournament entries.
February 1, 2015 4:43 p.m.
I AM NOT TRYING TO GET ANYBODY TO CHANGE WHAT THEY ARE PLAYING!!! I JUST FEEL LIKE ABZAN IS EVERYWHERE I GO! So all you turdz complaining about me trying to be a control freak, I am not. It is just aggravating that I don't play any of the great unique decks I see on from the fabulous members of the hombrewing community (and a lot of them are competitive decks). Also thanks alexthegreat38 for mostly getting the point.
February 1, 2015 9:36 p.m.
So you made a thread to tell everyone that YOU JUST FEEL LIKE ABZAN IS EVERYWHERE YOU GO..... and you didn't expect to get trolled? I'm not sure what's more surprising. The fact that your so concerned over what OTHERS are playing or the fact that you didn't expect to get trolled when you made a pointless thread.
February 1, 2015 10 p.m.
Not concerned. Just a player trying to play a game for fun. And how fun is playing the same video game level over and over again? None.
February 1, 2015 10:06 p.m.
Playing to have fun? Awesome. Wanting to play against a variety? Cool. Do you have a playgroup or do you only play FNM? Casual games against your playgroup is where you're more likely to play against a variety of homebrews, not so much FNM, which tends to be a competitive, which means people are gonna play what they feel gives them the best chance to win. Maybe that will be better than complaining about how much Abzan you see.
February 1, 2015 10:19 p.m.
Well if playing against the decks that are doing the best in the meta right now isn't fun for you then your mistake is attending any competitive event or even a slightly competitive event like FNM. Your not going to avoid it unless you play at home and force everyone that comes over to play something other than Abzan.
You basically have two options. Quit playing or quit whining. Because nothing you say or do is gonna change things and whining about it clearly hasn't gotten you anywhere either.
February 1, 2015 10:22 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #30
You can play games against Abzan and they will all play out differently. The games go on for so long, the lines so intricate, that no two turn out the same way.
Funny how bad played just can't grasp anything.
February 1, 2015 10:23 p.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #31
This happened last standard to but at least it was two decks you saw all the time, abzan is probably the most consistent and the most thought seize resistant deck. Strategically it's one of your better choices so you can't really fault people for playing it, that having been said I do find it annoying to play the same thing over and over. People are going to go online and see what wins, why wouldn't you but I have more respect for someone who loses with there deck than wins with someone else's.
February 2, 2015 6:28 a.m.
Kalibroxin says... #32
I brew decks. I have always brewed decks. I have a decent win%, and have won several FNM's without using a "net deck". I honestly say, without any hesitation, that Abzan decks are not really that strong. They are popular, so they are bound to win a decent % of the games, but while people are either playing Abzan decks, or decks that size up well against them, I'm playing decks that nobody has seen, or are a variant of a deck that nobody thought of. This makes it tough for my opponents to win, because my sideboard has cards to help me against them, and theirs rarely have cards that help them against me. My Sultai Soulflayer Control deck came in 2nd place during its first run, and I couldn't be happier. My Orzhov Manifest Control deck will be near the top of tonight's MNM ranks, because I know what my meta is, and what is strong against it. There will be Abzan decks galore tonight, and this deck does not have a hard time against them.
February 2, 2015 10:07 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #33
Just because you play a deck that is good against abzan doesn't mean abzan is bad. It top 8s because it is good. Also, what is good against some abzan decks isn't necessarily good against them all. As has been stated, there are many versions of the deck. What you described is a common advantage to playing a deck that isn't well known. However, at a professional level event, I think you will find that the players are much better and you will not have such an easy time
February 2, 2015 10:17 a.m.
superkamiguru7506 says... #34
MTGbrewer the sad fact is that a lot of people can't build decks on there own that don't suck, but don't let it get to you when abzan stops doing as good witch it's already starting to happen those that can only copy might at least copy different things. Oh and your complaint is completely valid wizards bands cards just to keep this from happening, it is bad for the game, not that there's anything that you could ban that fixes this. Ps don't let the trolls get to you
February 2, 2015 11:23 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #35
I always chuckle when people assume that winning an FNM means anything. The average FNM player is garbage, and just because you beat them misplaying a popular deck doesn't mean you beat the deck.
February 2, 2015 11:49 a.m.
I won't. Thanks for the support superkamiguru7506. Good for you Kalibroxin :).
February 2, 2015 11:50 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #37
For the record, I am not trolling, just confused as to what the point of this thread is. The fact of the matter is that even dedicated home brewers make bad decks that aren't competitive. 60% of home brewers will admit to having built a bad deck, and honestly, the other 40% are liars. Everyone builds a bad deck at some point in their career. What some people fail to realize is that people have different motives for playing the game. To some people, winning is fun and that is more important than anything else. To others, creativity is the allure of the game. But what you must understand is that competitive environments, such as fnm, tend to have more people who want to win. Therefore there will be more net decks on average. This does vary by location, but generally speaking, if you don't want to play against a popular deck, then maybe fnm isn't for you. Which is totally okay, no one will fault you for that. I would recommend starting a playgroup that encourages creative uses of cards. I have my own group that does that, and not only is it fun, but sometimes we stumble upon an idea that turns into a magnificent deck for competitive play.
February 2, 2015 12:08 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas trust me I would start a play group if I could, the problem is I'm one of the youngest people at my store so nobody takes me seriously. If I had a play group I wouldn't even go to FNM.
February 2, 2015 12:13 p.m.
Kalibroxin says... #39
I have built tons of bad decks. But over 20 years, I think I know a thing or two. "I always chuckle" when people don't understand the context of my posts, because simple English is difficult. I guess I should have emphasized the word "that" as being "THAT". I said it wasn't "that strong". I meant "THAT strong", as in, it isn't the end all, be all of things. And I'm not the "average" FNM player. I've beaten plenty of Pro Tour players in my day. The players at my LGS have made the top 8 in several Pro Tour Qualifiers, and a good friend of mine has won several. These same players play all the top decks, because it is what they enjoy playing. For 20 years, I've enjoyed trying to take down those decks, and the feeling you get when players are building sideboards against your deck, and not the "net decks", is one of the greatest you can feel as a Magic player.
There were two times last year when Ken Yukuhiro built a deck that was remotely similar to one that I had built, and I had to take it off of the site so players wouldn't think I ripped the idea off of him.
I always chuckle when people who don't know a person automatically believe that a person who posts something on here is a run-of-the-mill player, in order to make themselves feel better. The great players have to come from somewhere, and while there are only a select few that are a part of a website, or are known thanks to YouTube, there are those of us who don't completely dedicate our lives to Magic, and yet, we are easily in the top 5% of the players in the world.
To summarize, Abzan decks are often very strong, but they aren't the greatest decks. They saturate the format, because they have been strong for a long time. I have played so many Abzan decks, that now, because I know what to expect, I rarely lose to them, regardless of the type of deck I play.
To the OP, find a deck that you enjoy playing, and play the snot out of it. Eventually, you will be so attuned with that deck that you will be better at it than most are with their Abzan decks. Take down an FNM or two with it, and see what I'm talking about.
February 2, 2015 1:20 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #40
I am not saying you are a bad player. a a matter of fact, I don't even know you or your local meta, so it would be ignorant of me to claim any of that. All I am saying is that this is the internet, and you saying that you beat players who top 8 ptqs doesn't really mean anything here without some sort of evidence. Now, before this gets construed in any way, I want to specify that I am not saying I don't believe you, I am simply saying that there are those out there who would say the same thing without it being true. That being said, you can see when a deck was created on this site. so if someone accuses you of copying a deck, you can just say, "look at the date it was created, which was X days/weeks/months before the pro used it."
all that being said, I have one request for everyone. Don't be "that guy" that thinks he is big shit because he builds his own decks/beats a popular deck etc. No one likes that guy. unless you take it to an SCG open, Grand prix, or other big name event and do well with it (or someone does well with your deck that you built before the event takes place), It is all just talk, and talk is cheap.
//end rant
February 2, 2015 2:03 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #42
@ Kalibroxin thank you for being an example of players I dislike. Condescending and overly self important. At no point in your rambling did you come close to addressing the issue at hand. You talked about your greatness for taking down Pros and then squeezed in some Abzan near the end.
@ CommanderOfBolas I'd grant you an internet if I could.
February 3, 2015 9:11 a.m.
Kalibroxin says... #43
So, I'm not allowed to explain who I am before I make a comment? My original post was to explain that it doesn't matter what the meta is, any deck can be beaten, and in the case of Abzan, quite easily. I'm not sure exactly why you decided to chime in, and I couldn't care less if you like me, but giving your two cents only to criticize someone else's two cents, and not provide anything to the thread other than your "ramblings", doesn't help anyone or anything, either.
"At no point in your rambling did you come close to addressing the issue at hand."
And what issue did you address exactly?
February 3, 2015 9:35 a.m.
@Kalibroxin You must have missed the part where the OP said that.... he just wanted everyone to know that he feels like Abzan is everywhere he goes. Or the part where he said.... he does just fine against it and has no problem playing against Abzan decks.
Can you please tell me which of these issues you addressed by explaining how your buddies have placed at large tournaments before? Was it the one about how the OP thinks abzan is everywhere, or was it the one where the OP said Abzan isn't a problem for him to play against??
I mean if you want to get technical. Explaining who you are, talking about how you've seen Abzan so much that you never lose to it anymore, and telling the OP to play a deck they like so they can learn all of it's intricacies have absolutely nothing to do with what the OP said. So clearly you haven't addressed the issue either. Really, your just trying to hard to sound important that you typed out a big long response that had absolutely nothing to do with anything. Then to follow it up, in your response to CanadianShinobi, you literally do the exact same thing your criticizing him for doing. Making you not only look foolish, but like a hypocrite as well.
This thread was pointless, and the OP got pointless responses back. Please don't try and pretend there is a serious discussion here just so you can pat yourself on the back and "Introduce" yourself by giving off your short list of accomplishments.
February 3, 2015 10:20 a.m.
Kalibroxin says... #45
Actually, Abenz, what is going on here is a pissing contest started by people who wanted to thrash the OP by saying "You want them to play what you want, instead of playing what they want", and people, such as yourself, who tell others they shouldn't feel important, when you yourself are attempting to feel important by doing so. My purpose here, now, is to see how many people are going to actually respond to "posts of importance" with other "posts of importance", which will then be responded with "posts of importance".
I explained who I am for basis of comparison. I was not bragging, and wasn't trying to put myself on a pedestal. The people who took it that way obviously have an inferiority complex, and can't stand people who are successful.
The reason for the basis of comparison is to show that everyone suffers from having home-brew decks that fail, but after many years of trying, even the net decks aren't as strong as people make them out to be, regardless of saturation.
Next, my post in response to CanadianShinobi was directed completely at the comment about not addressing any issues. At no point, prior to or since, did I once direct a post at someone, simply to tell them that they are addressing no issues.
CanadianShinobi's comment was the hypocritical statement, and I pointed it out.
Now, Abenz, since we are being "technical", at what point was YOUR response to my post not hypocritical? Not one time did you address the OP's issues. So now, you are the fool responding to other people's posts without addressing the OP's original statement, telling them to not respond to other people's posts without addressing the OP's original statement. That sounds EXCEPTIONALLY logical.
February 3, 2015 10:59 a.m.
Kalibroxin says... #46
It also would seem that everytime someone posts a comment on one of your decks, that you argue the point, every single time, saying why your card is better than their suggestion. You are just argumentative, and I'm done with you. I've proven my point anyway.
February 3, 2015 11:08 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #47
Just because somebody doesn't think a card will be good in a deck that they've played and have experience with doesn't mean they're argumentative. My decks would be trash if I just accepted every suggestion given. "Arguing" on your decks is usually just called a conversation.
February 3, 2015 11:15 a.m.
I'm just here to tell the OP, "MTGbrewer, I feel ya!"
Although it's slowing down a bit right now, pre-FRF 3 out of 4 games I played were against Abzan.
Regardless of "Aggro", "Mid-Range", or "Whip", the decks basically have the same concept... Play Siege Rhino... win! - With slight variations as to how the Rhino is supported.
For me, it's slightly annoying, only because I started my KTK block Standard with Jeskai Tempo... which was basically the deck to beat when Abzan decks started to develop... so they generally have a great match-up against my deck.
That all being said, I can't really complain. Compared to many other Standards, this one is quite diverse. Sure some LGS's may have higher percentages than others, but still it's not like the Standards that were Thragtusk or Delver.
The only reason I stuck with Jeskai Tempo (until recently) was that I enjoyed the decks play-style, and I didn't feel like shelling-out for the cards needed for a second Standard deck.
February 3, 2015 11:34 a.m.
Kalibroxin says... #49
The decks that I'm starting to see more often are Temur Combo, Sultai Control Variants, and Mardu aggro decks, which is a great thing.
Abzan Decks are always going to be around until Siege Rhino leaves the format, which obviously won't be for a good long while. The Whip decks are finally withering, and Jeskai Combo never really took off.
I don't remember the last time that the format was bogged down by so many mid-range decks, and very little to no control decks. Variety is what will make Standard more exciting. I can't wait for Dragons of Tarkir.
February 3, 2015 11:45 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit, at least someone understands logic. Do people really think your supposed to accept every suggestion ever made? Seems like a dumb idea to me. Especially when the people offering suggestion typically have no experience playing the deck and their suggestions are more opinion than anything else.
I mean, excuse me for expecting people to present a logical and competent reason for why they think one card would be better for the deck than another. When people show up and say "you need to replace card X with card Y", they're making more of a demand than a suggestion. If you think card Y is better, I assume you have a reason for thinking so and would expect you to explain it so I could understand how that would help MY deck. That's just common sense. Through conversation, either I learn how card Y would benefit me, or you learn how card X fills an important role in the deck that you hadn't realized. Which is something ignorant people seem to overlook because they can't hold a conversation. So anything you say to them is perceived as you arguing with them and refusing their suggestion. They simply could have said yeah I realize that's what that card is in the deck for, but this one I'm suggesting does that and can also be used in other situations and avoided any "arguing", (as they put it), but instead the typical response is " I thought you were asking for suggestions". It's like.....Yes, I was asking for suggestions. No, I don't want irrelevant, unsupported demands being thrown at me. People act like they should be thanked and praised for showing up and acting like a stubborn jerk when you ask for "deck suggestions".
ThisIsBullshit says... #2
Abzan is good... That's why everybody is running it.
Also this should probably be in the standard forum.
February 1, 2015 11:25 a.m.