Anybody else really disappointed in Theros/BNG?
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 5, 2014, 2:01 a.m. by kmcree
I personally thought Theros was kinda meh. And BNG seems terrible. There literally isn't a single card that I look at and go "oh, I really wanna play that". I didn't even bother going to the prerelease. If these are the cards that are going to be replacing RTR come rotation, I'm not sure I want to keep playing standard.
Those are all good points. Its not even the color changes that bother me so much. It just seems like there is a complete void when it comes to game changing cards. I mean, how many cards in Theros/BNG can you really build a deck around and be competitive? It seems like the vast majority of the cards are either "helping" cards, or just filler. Nothing stands out to me. I think part of the reason control has been so strong is that there are so few real threats out there.
February 5, 2014 2:17 a.m.
The Doctor says... #4
I've noticed that the Theros block has largely been a "Help" block. I still see most Tier 1 decks using mainly RtR cards, with Theros help.
February 5, 2014 2:24 a.m.
@The Doctor: I completely agree with that assessment. Do you think that its part of Wizards' design (and that the next block will have more "power cards"), or a complete failure to predict how unplayed the Gods would be? It seemed like Wizards really wanted to push the Gods, and they fell flat on their face, at least as far as standard goes.
February 5, 2014 2:27 a.m.
The Doctor says... #6
I just think it's the progress of rotation. For example while ISD was still standard, it was largely ISD with RtR help.
February 5, 2014 2:29 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
The Doctor makes a good point. Theros seems to feel more like a flavorful block of core sets than a normal block of expert-level expansions. You get a few utility cards here and there, but the meat of every deck (with the exception being the devotion-specific cards) tends to come from RTR.
I think part of this phenomenon is due to Theros being underpowered as a block, and another part is due to RTR being so broad as to include cards for everything. Because RTR block had the ten bicolor guilds, there are plenty of cards to support almost any major strategy. Theros kind of pigeonholes you into monocolor builds if you use it as the focus of the deck, so players naturally gravitate toward RTR. It provides flexibility, and it's still reminiscent of last Standard in terms of function.
February 5, 2014 2:29 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Don't forget that we still haven't seen JOU. We're working with Theros while it's still an incomplete block, yet we're assessing RTR largely as a complete block. Theros's possibilities are not yet fully developed, so any "objective" judgment at this point needs to account for that detail.
February 5, 2014 2:30 a.m.
Yeah that's true. I just hope JOU brings us at least a few bombs.
February 5, 2014 2:33 a.m.
unholycookies says... #11
I just want my scry land.....and an izzet deck for standard!
February 5, 2014 3:10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@The Doctor: Fixed.
Speaking of scry lands, I don't like that the lands were distributed unevenly across the sets. It screws with the balance of the Standard meta.
February 5, 2014 3:13 a.m.
thataddkid says... #13
It also makes me mad my Animar, Soul of Elements deck has to wait to get the final scryland.
February 5, 2014 6:32 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #14
I personally think the Theros block brings in some kind of negative power-creep. R&D probably noticed that some stuff just was too strong and then toned things down a notch.
I think that future sets will remain on a similar kind of powerlevel as Theros, making Standard an even lower powered format.
People being disappointed because they don't get new strong cards for Modern and Legacy is an unavoidable a side effect.
February 5, 2014 7:45 a.m.
One other important thing to remember is that BNG and JOU will both be small sets. Simply due to size, they are less likely to contain cards that completely change the format. We haven't seen a Large-Small-Small block in a while, and I've personally never seen its effect on Standard. Is the middle Small block really supposed to revolutionize Standard?
Also, we haven't even gotten to release. Remember back when the first big event happened after Theros and everyone was blown away by MUD? It's possible (unlikely, but possible) something similar could happen again.
February 5, 2014 7:55 a.m.
I'm thinking that only history will be able to tell how well theros is as block, not only because JOU is not released yet, but because we have another block next year that theros will play with. How theros interacts with that, will be important, especially since afaik, 'heuy', 'dewey', 'louie' will be a bottom up design, instead of top down like RTR and Theros.
February 5, 2014 9:15 a.m.
I thought theros was a decent set, but for BNG I totally hear you. theres nothing im really interested in from this set. I feel like a lot of the new mechanics encourage bad play are are too contingent on other things in play. Hopefully journey makes up for it.
February 5, 2014 10:37 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #19
Am I disappointed in Theros and Born of the Gods? Nes. Yo.
Born of the Gods seems to have very few powerful cards (I need to take a closer look though), but Theros for example has brought us Purphoros, God of the Forge , which is a great card in token or weenie decks, and the absolutely awesome Master of Waves . Thassa, God of the Sea is a great addition for ninja or sabotage decks. There's Karametra, God of Harvests for landfall decks, and probably others that just didn't catch my eye. There are definitely good cards for the eternal formats.
Aside from that, Theros and BNG cards have the most beautiful artworks I've seen in a long time. Even most of the black cards, which are usually stuffed with violent, gore-themed artworks, are mostly really pretty. Look: Archetype of Courage /Archetype of Finality /Temple of Mystery /Temple of Triumph /Temple of Plenty /Temple of Malice /Aspect of Hydra /Divination /Brimaz, King of Oreskos /Flame-Wreathed Phoenix /Ghostblade Eidolon /Peregrination ... I could list more, but I'm too lazy now. Here's both sets as visual spoiler: click!
February 5, 2014 11:04 a.m.
10vernothin says... #20
Well, the crux of this argument is that it doesn't add to the current meta, but the problem is that this U/B/Esper/RG meta is going to change dramatically after RTR rotates out
From Most affected to least affected:
-Esper/ UW (Wipe/Draw) control is going to literally disappear after Supreme Verdict , Detention Sphere and Sphinx's Revelation rotate out. Instead I'd look at Ubx control with Thassa, God of the Sea , Erebos, God of the Dead Thoughtseize , Hero's Downfall , Dissolve , Bile Blight , Tromokratis and m15 spell waste not (and even maybe Disciple of Phenax .)
-Mono-blue is gonna take a hard hit with Judge's Familiar /Cloudfin Raptor , Tidebinder Mage and most of all Nightveil Specter rotating out. Mono-blue still has powerful powerful cards though, it just lacks the one-drops to make it very aggro. I think it might evolve into some kind of midrange deck with all the midrangey blue cards. But I don't think mono-U is gonna survive RTR change.
-Mono-black will lose Nightveil Specter , Desecration Demon , Underworld Connections and Pack Rat , but Gray Merchant of Asphodel proves strong enough that this deck will probably evolve into a devotion/discard Bx midrange deck starring Thoughtseize , Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx , Whip of Erebos , torment's herald, Disciple of Phenax , Bile Blight , Hero's Downfall , waste not and Gray Merchant of Asphodel
-RG ramp loses out on Burning-Tree Emissary and Domri Rade ...but gets xenagod. okay I guess nothing changes here.
And even with all the weenie hate, mono-white weenie-aggro has enough cards in theros to make it a thing (gonna need more t1-t2 support though).
Then someone will at least make a tournament viable BR midrange deck with all the RnB cards running around. (kill me)
The point is a lot of cards have a lot of potential in Theros, just because standard is dominated by 3 that are basically 80% RTR doesn't mean the others won't their time to shine.
February 5, 2014 12:46 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #21
To the main point of the thread: yes and no.
The flavor is pretty rad, the cards seem meh. Then again, in comparison, RTR was a pretty bomb-based expansion... there were a lot of cards that did a lot of cool things and were difficult to deal with. Obzedat, Ghost Council , AEtherling , Blood Baron of Vizkopa , Desecration Demon , Sphinx's Revelation , Supreme Verdict , Domri Rade and others all from one expac. While Theros has bombs they seem to be on a lower power level and the set seems to be based on mono weenie aggro rather than playing big, bad ass creatures (unless you playing green ramp). Xenagos, The Reveler is pretty bad ass, but Domri still seems to outshine him in most cases. You have to have the devotion to turn gods on, which is a pain in the ass unless you're playing black, in which case, Erebos, God of the Dead is sideboard tech anyway. But the ease of getting him to a creature is mainly because of Underworld Connections and Pack Rat which are RTR block anyway. That leaves you with Elspeth, Sun's Champion as the sole real bomb since it can win the game on its own and turn a loss to a win just like that.
It's also important to note that ISD and M13 contributed heavily to the bomb-centric previous meta with Swagtusk (Thragtusk
), Thundermaw Hellkite
, Olivia Voldaren
, Liliana of the Veil
and Huntmaster of the Fells
Flip
.
Naturally, coming off a meta where midrange was king to a meta that's relatively janky when you really think about it will make one relatively disappointed with the format, at least in my opinion. Let's face it, there's nothing like playing an Aurelia, the Warleader and swinging for game... twice.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Theros is definitely a flavor-oriented set. It doesn't really have the "power" that RTR or even ISD had, but it matches the flavor of ISD.
Part of the disappointment is, I think, due to everyone becoming accustomed to super powerful cards in Standard. Last season, three- and four-color midrange powerhouses dominated Standard. This season, people have to switch the game up. Combo still isn't viable, and aggro isn't doing hot. It's all about control or control-oriented devotion. We haven't really seen any midrange material quite like that of ISD-RTR Standard.
Going from stompy rainbow midrange to monocolor devotion or tricolor control is a bit of a stretch for some people. The monocolor strategy is being pushed right after a multicolor-oriented block (and, as was previously mentioned, after a multicolored Standard). It isn't really surprising that THS and BNG have met lukewarm reception at best.
February 5, 2014 2:11 a.m.