Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver vs. Xenagos, the Reveler
Standard forum
Posted on Sept. 16, 2013, 6:20 p.m. by Caninse
So my friends and I have had a good amount of debating on which will be more functional in standard. To me, based on my experience of testing them in decks, Ashiok has came out more functional in standard. They've been saying Xenagos is going to be more functional in standard. I really want to know what other people think will be more used, if either of them are.
Yeah, I understand that full-heartedly. I was thinking Ashiok would because it has the possibility of becoming a beast in control decks, and could make standard shift from R/W/U control to Esper control.
September 16, 2013 6:32 p.m.
Ashiok is only good in the esper mirror match as a sideboard. He won't see any play aside from that in standard.
September 16, 2013 6:34 p.m.
I could see that. That'd make a lot of sense for it to be a sideboard.
September 16, 2013 6:36 p.m.
Most likely xenagos by far. A lot of people are playing aggressive/midrange gruul and this card is awesome for aggro gruul and will be played a lot. I do like ashiok but as xla said its mainly a sideboard or possibly mill deck.
September 16, 2013 8:06 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #7
Xenagos, The Reveler by a mile. It's ridiculous. Almost ludicrous. Ashiok is sideboard vs control mirror only due to its innate lack of defense for itself or card advantage ability. Elspeth, Sun's Champion will be played in anything and everything with white in it though.
September 16, 2013 9:29 p.m.
I think because of the fact that I'm not a huge fan of playing gruul style decks, but I'm still struggling to see Xenagos as how powerful everyone else is seeing it. It just seems to have a lot of overly situational things with it, while Ashiok's +2 has the fact that it get +2 instead of +1 and the control over the opponent's deck. A lot of it is like a more useful Nightveil Specter to me. I dunno. I just am having a hard time seeing Xenagos as anymore than another ramp card.
September 16, 2013 10:18 p.m.
TrumpetsforKings says... #9
Well, Xenagos, The Reveler puts out not just a dual colored 2/2 (Garruk Relentless Flip does something along those line), but the token has haste, so it's automatically useful. The first ability is easy to abuse, as a Gruul deck puts out so many creatures by T4. Then his last ability allows you to pull out your heavy hitters without the need for mana, making Garruk, Caller of Beasts look slow in turn comparison, and he affects lands as well.
September 16, 2013 10:31 p.m.
That's valid. I see in that situation it being very good. I guess both of them boost the power of their respective guilds, as with Ashiok you can do a lot of milling and exiling, and then make them unable to get any cards back like a reanimator deck would need or scavenge deck would need.
September 16, 2013 10:53 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #12
And for the 3rd time in two days, I will copy and paste my explanation of why Ashiok sucks:
a) He does not protect himself. Look at every successful planeswalker ever - Elspeth, JTMS, all the Garruks, Karn, Tezzeret, LOTV, Domri, Ajani V, etc., all have an ability that protects themselves. The only good planeswalkers who do not protect themselves are Jace Beleren , who offers cheap, massive card advantage, and Jace, Memory Adept . While J, MA is expensive and does not protect himself, he can provide huge card advantage by drawing a card every turn, or he can just kill them in four/five turns.
b) he does not impact the board. This ties into the first point. Not only does he not impact the board, he does not draw you cards or make them discard. His first ability provides NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER, and you do not want to be tapping out to do that.
c) his second ability hinges completely on facing a deck with a deck with a lot of creatures, using the plus ability multiple times to have a good chance of hitting a guy, AND have both you and the Ashiok survive to use the -X. It's useless against control, and you can even randomly lose the game by milling 6 noncreatures against an aggro deck.
So to recap, he does not impact the board, his 1st ability is terrible, and his 2nd ability is very situational.
Soooo Xenagos is infinitely better.
September 17, 2013 4 a.m.
See, I'd have to disagree with you on that. Ashiok controls their deck. If you're losing cards every turn, that can impact the board also. In testing I've already had situations where they exile some of the cards that were needed just at that time. JTMS doesn't truly have a way to protect itself. All it has is a built in far, which may or may not help against some decks. Also, the odds of exiling 6 noncreatures against an aggro deck is quite low and very situational also. Xenagos is just as situational in one sense because it's +1 is only useful if you have something to do with that mana. Otherwise it's just giving you a loyalty counter with no benefit. It's ultimate can be pretty good, but there's obviously a possibility of just getting land and noncreatures, which would kill its purpose (which is just like your argument against Ashiok when fighting an aggro deck). The 2nd ability can be very powerful, but there's easy ways around it. Both just seem very situational when you look at it.
September 17, 2013 7:45 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #14
People keep trying to "pit them against each other" when in reality they belong in two different decks altogether.
I think at first we will see more of Xenagos to start because that's what people are used to in planeswalkers, but once the control decks start to take over (and believe me they will) Ashiok will be seen in more and more top 8's over Xenagos.
September 17, 2013 10 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #15
...if only one of the theros expansions is home to a new 3cmc version of vraska. given the amount of gorgons in theros, it just might be!
September 17, 2013 2:55 p.m.
I agree with you demon. The only reason I even put them against each other is because people have been saying "Xenagos is so much better than Ashiok" and I didn't really agree, so I wanted to know what a larger and more magic understanding community thinks. I do think there will be a rise in control decks too, so yeah, I can see Xenagos starting as more popular and then Ashiok becoming progressively more popular.
September 17, 2013 5:16 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #17
@Caninse: this is exactly the flawed logic that makes people think mill is good. What you are saying is a) milling impacts the board, and b) it can mill cards they need. Both of these lines are wrong.
a) milling does NOT impact the board. Impacting the board means killing, creating, or otherwise interacting with a permanent. Not only does Ashiok's ability not do this, it also creates no advantage like drawing/discarding a card. If you know the saying, "no point of damage matters but the last point?" The same is true for milling. Ashiok's + will provide 0 advantage THE FIRST TEN TIMES YOU USE IT.
b) this is statistically incorrect. Say your opponent needs a Thragtusk . If you mill them, sure, you might mill a Tusk. BUT YOU ARE JUST AS LIKELY TO MILL THEM THREE CARDS CLOSER TO A TUSK.
September 18, 2013 1:19 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #18
Of course mill doesn't gain you an advantage or impact the board right away. It is used as a win con.
This is what Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is designed to do...win and not create card advantage.
Now, if you DO happen to exile a creature with him it is BONUS and can be card advantage. He is still a reusable "deck killer" that can win a long game. Also, he can take out the opponent's hand if need be after 5 activations (which against control is extremely likely to happen IF he resolves in the first place)
If they were the only two permanents on the board, of course Xenagos would win as he can damage Ashiok without anything coming back in response. But add in other cards to the mix and Ashiok will win the long game
September 18, 2013 9:25 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #19
But if you want a win condition, either Jace, Memory Adept or AEtherling are better, because they are very fast clocks - Ashiok just sits there and takes forever to kill them, and if you mill 20 cards and they kill your Ashiok, you're back to square 1.
September 20, 2013 5:28 a.m.
It would take a lot to kill Ashiok if you've milled that much. If you mill 21 (since you can't mill 20 with Ashiok. It's not possible.), You've got 17 Loyalty Counters. That would take a lot to get rid of. Yes, Jace is better. I definitely agree there. But Ashiok is good in that deck though, since it's quicker to get Ashiok out than Jace or AEtherling. Personally, if I was running a deck like that, I'd run all three. And mill is good. I've seen some extremely powerful mill decks. One of my friends, in fact, has one that almost never loses because he knows what he's doing with it. Plus, yes, milling can mill someone closer to a card they need, but it gets rid of cards that they may need later. I definitely agree with Demon on what he's saying, since it makes more sense.
September 20, 2013 7:58 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #21
Jace, Memory Adept DOES close a game out faster and has proven himself against doubters after INN block hit and people were looking for an alternative way to beat control in long games. Mill is a valid way to win if you can control the board state long enough for it to work and can keep your "milling win con" alive.
That being said, I think Ashiok will be better against midrange/aggro decks that will more reliably hit a creature to bring in. You can always use Ashiok in a long game if the strategy doesn't seem to be working out. Jace should be the go to guy if you're set on mill as your only win con as he will do it faster.
It will be interesting to see what results they put up. I can see Ashiok being the "lineup starter" as he has more options to start with for winning against the field, but Jace will still be the sideboard champ he has always been.
September 20, 2013 10:02 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #22
@Caninse: no, it wouldn't. A single Detention Sphere , Dreadbore , or Hero's Downfall will do it.
@harrydemon117: I agree that Ashiok is better than Jace against aggro (I still think Jace is better vs midrange. Just resolving one against Jund with an empty board is GG), the point is you don't want either against aggro. If you tap out turn 3 for Ashiok against aggro, then you'll get hit for a million by their guys, having done nothing to impact the board. The only use of finishers against aggro is, after you've stabilized, to kill them as quickly as possible so they don't have enough time/draw steps to burn you out. Jace or AEtherling do that better.
Also, this debate will receive its ultimate verdict when LSV's set review comes out :) I'll go with whatever LSV says.
Krayhaft says... #2
They fulfill two very different functions though. Xenagos will be more functional in a G/R/x midrange creature-based deck, while Ashiok will likely be a way for U/B/x control decks, or dedicated mill decks, to win the game.
Which one will you see more in standard? I would probably say Xenagos, judging by the abundance of creature based decks.
September 16, 2013 6:25 p.m.