Bad prints in standard
Standard forum
Posted on March 3, 2015, 10:34 a.m. by IndepenentMeta
Idk if some of you guys noticed yet but everytime wizards releases a new mechnaic they always out outrageous mana cost on it. Wen bestow got introduced even a card that just gave 2/1 had a mana cost of 4-5. Wen delve hit the board there's nothing less than 4. And now there's two got card that got spoiled that had the potential to be staples but now because of the new cmc they cost too much to see any playtime in standard. My concern would be if the rumors are true and they do get rid of core sets or any expansion between blocks there will be no staples to run other than those cards. Which have really bad cmc and could lead to some terrible games of magic. Idk what do you guys think bout it
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #2
Epoc...why are you doing this to yourself...
March 4, 2015 3:47 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #4
Ugh did you run into any draft cards during your time drafting where you said ugh this card should've been lower. Or it would've been helpful if this card was at this. That's a part of card designing card designers should be worried the most bout. Just really stop to think about how come there are no errors on cards like sylvan caryatid, stormbreath dragon, polukranos, gooblin rablemaster, courser of kruphix, hero's downfall, whip of erebos, frontier siege, temur sabertooth, pharika, and Keranos,
Then you have lower good tier like valorous stance, chained to the rocks, evolving wilds, nemesis of the mortals, tasigur, hier of the wilds, rakshasa, bloodsoaked, gray merchant, treasure cruise and dig through time(in standard), brimaz, murderous cut,
Then there's the cards I'm taking bout like ponyback brigade, sand stepped mastodon, abomination Of gudul, leech king, Mer ek nightblade, mardu strike leader, flying crane technique.
The point is we can bump those cards on the bottom colum a tier up.Some of them like you stated before Wont make too much of a difference, while others might find their place in standard modern or maybe even legacy play.
Just look at the theros block for example. There's a shit ton of staples in those blocks, But yet they don't see any modern play... Why because people want their modern decks to more less fit a modern theme. It's just stubbornness but I bet you you can see any of Those cards in a top 8 modern even. Like idk I saw this jund decklist at the last scg they had for modern where the vato used some really weird old card. I'm like dude serious stormbreath easily put handles that card...
March 4, 2015 7:17 a.m.
I am glad I gave up a couple of pages ago. But that limited 40-70 card set with all power cards just was a such a great idea, I had to comment:
If you do not like a card, it is not made for you.
Sure , it may seem bad when you get Lash of the Whip instead of Murder in a set, but that is what the set needs in order to properly balance its limited play.
I am not going to question the logic of the people that spent more time designing every set than the total time you have spent playing this game.
March 4, 2015 7:48 a.m.
IndepenentMeta the problem you dont seem to get is that even if you increase the power level of bad cards in some way, there will still be cards that are better than others. There's simply no way to make every card have the same power level.
Also you keep saying that Limited should not play a role in card design. But you cant say that just because you dont play it, there should be no support for it since many other people enjoy it.Also the idea you had in post 3:13 that you should just increase the power level of lower tier cards ist really practicable since it would again debalance limited too much. There is simply no way to make some cards better without make an entirely different card. Take Bane Alley Blackguard for example. How are you gonna make this card better? You could decrease the mana cost but a 1/3 for a single mana would orobably too good in limited to be printed at common since it can block basically every one or two drop.
I think your problem is that just focus on Standard and dont think about anything else. And as I stated before even if you increase the power level of all now unplayble cards there would still be cards that are better than others and still only handful of cards sees play. So you see all your ideas dont solve your problem because there's simply no way to make every card the same power level and so also no way to solve your problem.
March 4, 2015 8:12 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #7
Old news tell me when you have something worth hearing
March 4, 2015 8:16 a.m.
The only thing getting old here is you, bringing nothing new to this discussion and reiterating your point ad nauseum. You constantly demonstrate lack of knowledge of the game's design, lack of tolerance for others or even lack of a an understanding of what a discussion is.
Discussions like this can always lead to some better common understanding of the topic, but comments such as the above do not contribute in any way to that.
March 4, 2015 8:32 a.m.
Dude I'm trying to explain something to you but you seem to simply cant or dont want to understand what everybody else is telling you.
March 4, 2015 8:34 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #10
Ugh no dude I've been hearing this for quite some time so yes I understand. The entire game is designed around limited, wizards of the coast will never change this, so why even have a Disscussion about it. And anything I say is complete trash. And a lack of comparison as to why cmc are so high. Mature bro, we ve heard that one
March 4, 2015 1:21 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
I'll say it again:
The cards cost what they do because it's more stable for Limited.
Some cards would be too powerful in Limited at their given rarity if they cost less than they did. It doesn't matter whether you accept that or not. It's true, even if you may not understand it (seeing how you earlier asked what the rules for Limited even were).
And even if we did change the costs just to suit you, you still wouldn't play Chimney Imp if it cost 
or 
. It's still worse than your other options. Being only slightly worse than those options doesn't make it playable in competitive formats.
And you quite clearly do not understand. Hearing and understanding are different, and you seem to prefer taking offense to counterarguments instead of considering what they have to offer.
March 4, 2015 1:37 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #12
I know I know lol u guys sound like a broken record
March 4, 2015 1:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Maybe we keep repeating the same points because you utterly fail to accept them.
The last two pages have been nothing but this:
"Well, I think this."
"This is the reason that isn't the case."
"Yeah, but."
"Here's a different reason/perspective."
"Yeah, but."
Now, if you're interested in actually discussing the topic, that's fine. But don't ask for input and then dismiss it and restate your point.
March 4, 2015 2:13 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #15
Let me put it like this
"since our opinion is always correct there is no need for you to express yours. So in order for this conversion to continue agree with us."
These are just my opinion on the topic man. And I'll do you a solid. I looked around on the last two expansions kahns and fate. And I found it to be meeting the standards I set by posting these things. Maybe wizards is taking the step in the right direction already?
March 4, 2015 3:06 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #16
Woah, gonna come back to this later, only got through half of the first page. Commenting to subscribe to the thread. I did have one point though.
IndepenentMeta may have been pointed out, I just did not get to it yet, but the best cards will always see the play. If you made all the cards better, the best ones would still play. Some that are seen as good now would seem bad then, and we would be in the same situation. Only difference is standard would be stronger then modern.
March 4, 2015 3:10 p.m.
omnipotato says... #17
If you made all the cards better, the best ones would still play. Some that are seen as good now would seem bad then, and we would be in the same situation.
This. If they tried to make all cards good, there would still be good and bad cards, and only a certain percentage would see play.
March 4, 2015 3:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
I'm so glad that Wizards now meets your standards and continue running their business with your seal of approval.
And yes, while these may be your opinions, we're all presenting facts regarding the design of sets. It's a fact that sets are designed for Limited first. It's a fact that Wizards assigns costs based on the function of the card (primarily in Limited). It's a fact that some cards will always be unplayable in competitive environments. Those things really aren't subject to anyone's opinion.
You're welcome to disagree with them, but you really haven't made any convincing cases for doing so, nor have you proposed any sensible alternatives. You may be free to disagree with the choices, but you need to be productive about it if you expect anyone to treat your points with any consideration.
March 4, 2015 3:19 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #19
I'd be playing ponyback mardu if he was a 4 drop. It takes 4 turns for it to drop anyways seeing as mardu doesn't have any mana dorks.But yes that is true. But I bet you anything even you guys have the cards you would run if the cmc was lowered
March 4, 2015 3:21 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Everyone does. What's your point? It doesn't mean that the costs should be lowered. We've tried explaining that.
March 4, 2015 3:22 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #21
You didn't try you explained it but as I've stated before those r my views on the product and you guys have your own so we could just leave it at that
March 4, 2015 3:32 p.m.
What in the fuck did I actually just read?
"No one plays Limited."
"We should just lower the mana cost on everything."
Is this kid for real?
You realize if we lower the cost on everything to "make it playable," then it doesn't actually fix everything? If I ban every creature in Modern except for Ashcoat Bear and Grizzly Bears, guess what? Ashcoat Bear replaces Tarmogoyf, hits $20+, and becomes the new metric for 2-drops in the format. All of a sudden, Shock is playable because it kills 100% of the creatures in the format.
You can extrapolate this idea beyond two cards. Just look at Reaper of the Wilds and Deadbridge Goliath. Two perfectly playable cards that never saw any play in Standard due to Thragtusk, Polukranos, World Eater, and Siege Rhino.
If you drop the mana cost on Reaper of the Wilds to make it "viable," it's better than Loxodon Smiter, Herald of Torment, or Boon Satyr. If you make Deadbridge Goliath a 6/5 or lower the scavenge cost to 4, it's miles ahead of any of the other four-drops because of shock lands. It presents a 3-turn clock instead of a 4-turn clock. Or make it a 5/6? It's just a no-brainer...it blocks Thragtusk and Polukranos, World Eater and just doesn't give a shit.
We can go on and on and list every card in every set and it will just come down to "None of these are better than Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall."
The only reason people don't play Limited is because they don't always have the money. For most people, it's their favorite format (drafting is my 2nd. favorite behind Vintage). Drafting is far more skill intensive than Legacy, Modern, or Standard. You're delusional if you think otherwise.
March 4, 2015 4:52 p.m.
omnipotato says... #23
The only reason people don't play Limited is because they don't always have the money.
Not true, I don't play Limited because I don't enjoy it. However, unlike IndepenentMeta, I understand and accept that people enjoy different aspects of the game, and Magic is built for all of us, not just competitive Standard players.
Drafting is far more skill intensive than Legacy, Modern, or Standard. You're delusional if you think otherwise.
They require different kinds of skill. Limited requires you to build decks on the fly, while the decisions you make in-game are not very complex. Constructed requires knowledge of the metagame and the ability to read your opponent to play around specific spells he may have.
March 4, 2015 5:46 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #24
Man I have a badass question anyone wanna answer it?
March 4, 2015 5:50 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #25
Yeah I've hear drafting takes a certain skill
But I topped at my first limited event using 4 colors with only one access to black and I was in the top four circle. Even taking out one of those people that say "it takes a certain skill meta something you don't have." it doesn't take certain skills it doesn't take luck it takes a basic player skill any player can have with in at least 3 week of magic experience. Magic isn't this big ass journey of deep understanding. It's a card game just like yuioh and vanguard. I think all card games are equal now only because I've played so much card games I prolly kno what it take to be playing at a pro level.
Now the thing is you have to start looking at it from this angle the angle I see it through there is a vast amount of things that intrest people in the game. Some people like kill spells other people like counter spells, some like burn, some like banishing, some like control others like aggro, the point it you shouldn't blind yourself from what you know as it never hurts to keep an open ear
March 4, 2015 5:58 p.m.
omnipotato says... #26
>It's a card game just like yuioh and vanguard.
>just like yuioh
>I think all card games are equal now only because I've played so much card games I prolly kno what it take to be playing at a pro level.
>yuioh
>pro
>the point it you shouldn't blind yourself from what you know as it never hurts to keep an open ear
March 4, 2015 6:11 p.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #27
He is going to win this by simply not knowing how to lose.
March 4, 2015 6:22 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #29
IM, I am not sold that you are most likely on the level of a pro player. I am not sure how old you are, or your experience in high level gaming, but I think you might be underestimating it. I mean confidence is a good thing to have in life, but just like most things there can be too much.
If you want to be a pro player, it is going to take an understanding of the rules that is probably at least equal to a level one judge. Have you looked into taking that test?
I do like the second thing you said. Just seems like that is what everyone is telling you.
Though this is the internet, and open minded discussions are not always the case. There are many people here with experience in the game that dwarfs yours, and mine. I personally have played for 20 years on and off. Some are judges, and some people on the site play in those giant events too. There are times where opinions are shown to be irrational. You can still hold them, but they do not prove a higher understanding.
March 4, 2015 6:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
Absolutely wrong. You might be able to play a draft without the particular skill set that makes good drafters good, but that doesn't mean you're as good as those drafters. The skills involved in drafting include working with very limited resources, observing the picks that other players are making in order to estimate what they're drafting, working within the constraints of a 40-card deck (which highlights mana balancing and card selection skills), and more.
You can luck out and do well sometimes, but you won't be playing at the same level as people who actually understand drafting.
Excuse me for a moment. Earlier you pointed out that you've been playing for a year. You also asked what the rules for Limited were (despite now claiming to have played and even top-foured in a Limited event). Now you're trying to claim not only that all card games are equal (in what I can only assume is an attempt to compare player skill requirements across games) and that you're on the theorycrafting level of pro players.
Between the questions you ask and the claims you make, I highly doubt you're anywhere near the skill or comprehension level of someone like Wafo-Tapa or LSV.
March 4, 2015 7:06 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #32
Subbing for teh lulz.
fluffybunnypants You want some of this?
March 4, 2015 7:32 p.m.
quesobueno123 says... #33
Guys same guy who said wotc stole his card designs, HE IS A TROLL
March 4, 2015 7:34 p.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #38
well, i think they did. thats MY personal opinion, so its true.
March 4, 2015 7:41 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #39
Ya know I guess it never occurs to people. If you are THAT upset about how WOTC makes their game to the point that it's unbearable, quit.
Put down the cards, sell them, move on to a more enjoyable game.
My only contribution. I'm not fond of shit posting lately.
March 4, 2015 7:42 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #41
Or you could go and play every set for another 5 years. Once you've played every format for 5 years, read all of WotC's articles that they put up on their site, and done some background research on how the construction of things play out, you'll have a much better understanding of how the game works.
Oh.
How about this, go onto the MagicSetEditor site, download their program, and make a set. Once you've done that, upload it to their community site and ask for feedback. You'll learn A LOT.
March 4, 2015 7:48 p.m.
Ohthenoises: I'm not fluffybunnypants, so I could be way off, but generally I've found that this isn't the type of laughs his wall is interested in. He generally favors humor for the sake of humor, this is just stupid.
March 4, 2015 7:55 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #43
Mmmm marshmallows....
Troll thread is trolly. However, IndepenentMeta just because you have an opinion does not mean you cannot be wrong. Your subjective experience is utterly pointless when faced with an objective truth. Therefore you are wrong. A troll, but wrong.
March 4, 2015 7:58 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #46
Lol I already feel like taking bout something else.
March 4, 2015 8:34 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #47
Aaaaand sylvannos wins the Most Accurate Post award!
March 4, 2015 8:38 p.m.
I have the solution. Seriously. Go on Magic Online, and go play power cube. Every single card in that set is a bomb.
March 4, 2015 10:52 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #49
No I think somebody on the chat was right I should switch to modern. There's a whole world of staples and bombshell in there. Plus I know with the deck I'm making I wouldn't have to add anything from the new sets until another bombshell gets released
March 4, 2015 10:55 p.m.
No. No seriously. Go on Magic Online and go play Power Cube. It literally has only good cards.
Epochalyptik says... #1
The cards cost what they do because it's more stable for Limited.
March 4, 2015 2:53 a.m.