Banned & Restricted Announcement June 13th 2017
Standard forum
Posted on June 13, 2017, 11:30 a.m. by supagrex
Aetherworks Marvel is the only thing banned in standard. No other changes. What do you guys think about this?
Aetherworks Marvel is only banned in standard. Everything else stayed the same.
June 13, 2017 11:50 a.m.
The card is not broken but turn 4 ulamog is basically unbeatable because its a turn 4 stone rain and a creature that needs specifically like 2 removal spells in the format to win. The deck is inconsistent but if you are a lucky player you would often times just win so its no surprise nor any skin off my back that is is gone.
June 13, 2017 11:53 a.m.
I found it super-interesting that so many decks have a good match-up vs. Marvel, but they banned it anyway:
- Archetype (Win % vs. Marvel)
- Temur Energy (51%)
- RG Pummeler (59%)
- Mardu Vehicles (50%)
- Esper Vehicles (61%)
- BG Energy (54%)
- UW Flash (57%)
It makes me wonder if the banning is really because they're worried about something from Hour of Devastation being too powerful for Marvel ...
Like, say, Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh?
June 13, 2017 12:09 p.m.
Winterblast says... #6
"A turn-four Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is virtually game over, which, according to Frank Karsten, happens in around just 9.4% of games. Having 10% of your games end that quickly is justifiably unpalatable to most of you."
The real problem is that a turn 4 Ulamog is considered unbeatable. Well, maybe just print something like Stifle instead of a 3 mana Disallow? Or a cheaper exiling creature removal? If the format's problem is that it can't deal with Ulamog, give it something to deal with creatures like that early in the game...
June 13, 2017 12:17 p.m.
ork_mcgork says... #7
"We were very concerned with taking another deck out of players' hands when our goal is to let people play with the cards they have."
This is what stumps me, why not simply ban Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger?
I was just about to buy two more Marvels and play a variant that jammed in a lot of Gearhulks because it sounded more interesting than "herp derp I Ulamog and win!"... and was willing to accept that my variant would likely not do super amazing but it'd be neat.
...and then I was going to switch it over for our lord and master, Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh when he hit - which I think was what they were scared of.
Though this round of B&R would have not been an issue if they'd stuck tot hat faster rotation schedule and gotten more data like they needed rather than changing Standard again (and again...).
June 13, 2017 12:35 p.m.
clayperce No way is Bolas a better hit than Ulamog. It would only add redundancy to the hits. It might not even be played over Chandra because of her sweeping ability and damage as a plus. WotC is just banning stuff for no good reason. Not that I'm defending Marvel itself- it still should've been printed at some other time.
June 13, 2017 12:36 p.m.
Winterblast,
Maybe something like Ceremonious Rejection? Oh, wait ...
June 13, 2017 1:01 p.m.
DarkLaw,
I agree with you that Ulamog's way better. But I could see Wizards being worried about anything that might lead to having to ban another marquee card, especially so soon after Emrakul, the Promised End. Or maybe there's just some other card from HOU that would have made Marvel more busted.
June 13, 2017 1:06 p.m.
Winterblast says... #11
clayperce the cast effect still triggers though, which is bad enough. To stop ulamog efficiently, countering the ability and the spell itself or removing the creature in the same turn has to be realistic on let's say turn 4, when the earliest possible ulamog could be cast
June 13, 2017 1:06 p.m.
Personally, I also think they should've just banned ulamog instead. He has less time left in standard and he's only played in this deck, so it wouldn't hurt other archetypes. It would've let people continue to play marvel and it would still be somewhat viable. Probably these new marvel decks would have less focus on marveling and more on just being midrange and using marvel for value.
But that's just my opinion.
June 13, 2017 1:11 p.m.
Winterblast,
Oh, I know. It's just that countering Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger with Ceremonious Rejection (though leaving the cast trigger) actually seems better than Stifle countering only his attack trigger.
June 13, 2017 1:13 p.m.
Winterblast says... #14
I meant stifle-ing the cast trigger so that you don't lose the two permanents...it's pretty bad that the cheapest spell that can do that costs 1UU, because it leaves little room for killing the creature afterwards. I think the cheapest "exile target creature" without a drawback in standard costs 5, if I'm not mistaken, and that's a bit much. Countering the cast trigger and removing ulamog would cost 8 mana in total, which is ridiculous when such a fatty can be brought into play around turn 4. I don't get why they don't just put realistic solutions into the standard sets instead of swinging the banhammer on every occasion.
June 13, 2017 1:57 p.m.
Winterblast,
Ah, got it. With that in mind, Summary Dismissal would do the trick, for 2UU. Or Disallow followed by Declaration in Stone (5 total) or Anguished Unmaking, Stasis Snare, or Thopter Arrest (6 total).
You point though is still TOTALLY valid.
June 13, 2017 3:13 p.m.
Unless you're talking solely about Ulamog, not what lets you cheat him out, you can just Negate the Marvel. Even if they hold up countermagic is has to be like turn 5 or 6.
June 13, 2017 4:35 p.m.
DarkLaw,
Or even better IMO in a meta filled with Marvel decks (plus some incidental Vehicles and Emerge creatures): Ceremonious Rejection.
Which kind of goes to my point: Marvel was certainly beatable ... that was true with Emrakul and it was VERY true with Ulamog. I'm personally surprised they banned it. Unless there's something coming in HOU that would have made the deck even better (or worse, depending on which side of the table you're on) ...
June 13, 2017 5:05 p.m.
landofMordor says... #18
clayperce, my friend, I would be audibly cheering you on if I weren't surrounded by people.
Not only is your control-magic game ON POINT (Ceremonious Rejection and all the exile spells are my favorite), but we seem to be having identical thoughts about the inherent "beatability" of Marvel. I'm surprised at the banning, even if there is no sorrow whatsoever in my psyche at the news.
To your HOU point, I think Bolas might have competed for a slot with maybe Razaketh or one of Bolas's forgotten pocket-gods of Amonkhet...they will be printed under the old paradigm of "push the story spotlight cards" and will therefore are more likely to be extremely powerful. Which is the only reason I could fathom the banning.
June 13, 2017 9:55 p.m.
You could play Ceremonious Rejection, but there's no real reason to play it over Negate in the sideboard.
There wasn't really a need to ban Marvel, other than the excuse that it is "unfun"- just like getting killed by any other deck T5.
June 14, 2017 12:21 a.m.
usurphling says... #20
how about Glorious End as an ulamog counter? end their turn and exile all the shenanigans...but its risky and it requires skill and strategy to make it effective. Gideon of the Trials, Exquisite Archangel anyone?
June 14, 2017 10:15 a.m. Edited.
Chasmolinker says... #21
I feel that although Marvel was certainly beatable, it was becoming the only deck in standard. It took over the meta game and WotC doesn't like showing the same deck at GP's and Pro Tours over and over.
June 14, 2017 1:55 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #22
Any time a decks description is "Spin the Wheel", you're probably getting into territory WOTC would prefer you weren't in. Additionally, though, the matchup data is somewhat deceiving because if you look at the past 4 Standard Grad Prix's Marvel was very well represented. Sporting 8/16 in the Top 16 at GP Montreal, 3/16 at GP Manila, 9/16 at GP Omaha, and 6/16 at GP Amsterdam, for an overall 26/64 or 40.625% of top 16 showings at the past 4 standard Grand Prixs. The next closest deck, BG constrictor, accounted for only 23.4375% of top 16 decks at those same tournaments. (You might want to double check my number there, but I think they are right give or take a deck showing, regardless the numbers should be within the same general range.) Anyway, the point is, if I wanted to top 16 at a large tournament, my best choice by far was Aetherworks Marvel. It had nearly twice the presence of the next most represented deck, and accounted for 2 out of every 5 decks in the top 16! At which point from a results oriented perspective, Marvel is the "Best Deck" in the format, and WOTC doesn't like deck that can go "Ooops I win" on turn 4 in modern, let alone in standard. As for why Marvel got the axe instead of Ulamog? Aetherworks Marvel will effectively combo with any high-mana costed card, which thinking about it is kind of insane. WOTC would be at risk of having to ban any high-mana cost closer they printed in standard for as long as Aetherworks Marvel was legal, and at a certain point, its just a lot easier to kill the enabler in advance. Maybe Marvel+Bolas would have been weak enough to beat, but maybe instead it would have been something like Marvel+Cruel Ultimatum, which would have sucked on turn 4. I'll close out by stating that Standard is not my main format, so I can't speak to "Ban Fatigue" or how "Beatable" Marvel felt, but I feel like I get the logic behind this banning decision.
TL;DR: Marvel accounted for 40% of top 16 appearances at the past 4 GP's and could turn four "Win". Hence the banning.
June 16, 2017 2:04 p.m.
werhsdnas14 says... #24
If you were to ban Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger instead, you run into the problem with the leaked Nicol Bolas from Hour of Devastation. Still 5 cards banned in standard though...
June 16, 2017 3:23 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #25
I heard Standard was doing poorly. Is it because of the current meta plus all of the banning?
RedmundR2 says... #2
I dont think the card is broken, but it certainly was overplayed in many decks. I dont mind seeing it go.
June 13, 2017 11:45 a.m.