Beating Abzan Aggro with a Midrange strategy
Standard forum
Posted on May 16, 2015, 4:53 p.m. by jubale
Normally the midrange strategy is to play bigger creatures, stop the beats, get card advantage, and win in the long run. Abzan Aggro foils this by killing your best defenses, and then rushing in with creatures like Rakshasa that aren't easily intimidated.
Still, I feel there ought to be an angle (non-Abzan) that can trump that deck. Who has it?
It is doing work, but I don't consider Esper Dragons to be midrange. It's a control deck only with a few more creatures than usual. I'm looking for midrange inspiration.
May 16, 2015 5:52 p.m.
You can consider it control all you want, but the deck plays more akin to a midrange deck than anything else.
Green devotion lists aren't half bad. You've got highly resilient boards, plenty of utility, bigger bodies, and many of your best cards force 2-for-1 trades. You can also go for draw with things like Shamanic Revelation.
Mardu Dragons can be a damn speedy list. It's got access to some great cards like Crackling Doom and the dragon beatdown is a real threat to a deck without the ability to block them efficiently.
May 16, 2015 6:07 p.m.
To be clear, the list Defpotec linked is more midrangy than most. However, the esper dragon list I'm more familiar with (and I'm assuming jubale as well) are the control versions which are close to identical. With the exception of Sorin and Monastery Mentor being replaced by Silumgar's Scorn and Dissolve. For the most part that's really the only difference, give or take a few numbers here and there depending on the pilot.
May 17, 2015 4:51 a.m.
This has less to do with cards that typically carry connotations of control, like Dissolve, and more so with how the deck tends to play out. This deck does have the potential to go out and grind games with advantage. However, the reason the Esper dragons list is so good is that it can reliably go on the beatdown plan. These games are often about 1-for-1ing threats until Oujitai lands on T5. This style of play is a lot like the removal/discard heavy B/W midrange that saw play during the tail end of Ravnica. Yeah, it could grind advantage through Underworld Connections and lifegain, but many of it's games could be taken over rather quickly by a timely Desecration Demon.
So when I say the deck is midrange, I'm talking about the manner by which it typically manages its resources and how fast it pressures opponents.
May 17, 2015 8:19 a.m.
HorridBEAST says... #7
The way a Midrange deck beats aggro is by any combination of ramp, stalling, resilient threats, and protection.
How does their Rakshasa Deathdealer match up against my turn 3 Polukranos, World Eater? They don't have the mana yet to run over and if they need to keep mana up to regen the Deathdealer when Polukranos goes monstrous then I have successfully delayed the aggro deck and gotten to my favorite part of the game: the mid-game.
Or I could play the resilient Ashcloud Phoenix, block the Deathdealer, dealer gets regened and the phoenix comes back face down, on my turn I flip the Phoenix (6 mana on turn 4 is not difficult) and kill the Deathdealer unless they have 2 more mana to regen again. Once again if they are leaving mana up to protect the death dealer then they are not playing threats or removal that turn.
If they kill your threats, then you just play another one (or flip the Phoenix again), There is no way that an abzan deck mainboards enough removal to deal with all of your creatures because removal is almost useless against Esper. If you are really afraid of removal then you just side board in protection like: Gods Willing, Ranger's Guile, Ajani's Presence, Mortal's Resolve, and so much more.
Another way to deal with early game aggression (And this applies to every aggro not just Abzan) is to play cheap creatures that are good at stalling. Hornet Nest is the best example of this because it will soak up at least one attack and give you at least 2 Deathtouch tokens if they kill it with damage, these tokens will often keep them from attacking until they have some way to deal with them. Don't forget that your ramp can also be used to dampen early damage. Sylvan Caryatid can block 2/2s all day (except the Deathdealer if they have mana for a pump), and Voyaging Satyr can block Goblin Rabblemaster's tokens and kill them to prevent the Rablemaster getting to big, as well as other 1/1s that you normally see in mono-red
May 17, 2015 11:48 a.m.
Well I'm glad that's how your one game went. However, in my many experiences playing against the deck it has been nothing like that.
Typically they play out just like any other control deck. Relying on counterspells and 1 for 1 removal early on and using board wipes to keep the pressure off them late. They grind you out with card advantage and exhaust your resources so that their dragons can win the game.
So when I say, what most people are used to seeing is the Esper Dragons control list that is almost identical to the deck list posted earlier, I literally am talking about the ESPER DRAGON CONTROL deck.
Just because it can win before turn 20 doesn't make it a midrange deck. If an aggro deck won some games after turn 10 you wouldn't suddenly start calling them midrange decks would you? NO, so it makes absolutely no sense to pretend these control decks are anything other than control just because they can beat you quickly if you don't stop them lol. The thought of someone using that shaky logic literally makes me laugh.
May 17, 2015 11:50 a.m.
"Well I'm glad that's how your one game went."
You just debased yourself to the level of personal insults. The above statement isn't grounded in anything I've posted on this thread nor do you know me personally. That makes it a pure assumption made with the express intent of calling my authority into question. I'm disappointing in you. There can be no discourse until there is mutual respect. I think we're done here.
May 17, 2015 12:38 p.m.
Abzan aggro is an aggro deck full of strong removal, I don't think going midrange is the way to beat them since they will remove your creatures and play a small threat in the same turn, whereas you will only be able to do one of the two in a midrange build (until you get more late game). Abzan aggro completely out tempos midrange tbh...
Your best bet against AA is to go wide since the grand majority of them do not play Bile Blight anymore. Mono red is an option though that ain't midrange, jeskai tokens is another option. Tokens is very versatile and can play aggro, midrange or even control like games. So... Tokens is my ''midrange'' recommandation.
May 17, 2015 1:11 p.m.
HorridBEAST says... #11
The thread is not "what deck beats Abzan Aggro" it is "how do you play against abzan aggro with a midrange deck"
And midrange does just fine against abzan aggro because most of their threats are 2 drops with no haste. If my midrange deck can get to turn 3 with at least 1 dork on the field then my chances of winning the game are pretty good. Ramping out threats that foce your opponent to play Hero's Downfall instead of Deathmist Raptor or Resilient threats that eat a removal and come back for more are the way you do it.
Mono-red aggro is much more problematic. Dude once dealt 18 points of damage to me before I got anything that could answer him
May 17, 2015 1:32 p.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #12
I agree with HorridBEAST that making the deck threat-heavy with some sort of resilience taxes their removal and disruption, and that some decks (ie R/G Dragons, etc.) provide resilient rampers and impactful threats that can blunt their smaller/slower (but potentially larger earlier) threats and tax their non-creature spells. If they're spending their mana for the turn on a kill spell they aren't pumping their Deathdealer and 2 damage is nothing when you have a Stormbreath Dragon, Thunderbreak Regent, Draconic Roar and Dragonlord Atarka in hand. That deck also utilizes Sylvan Caryatid for resilient ramp and Courser of Kruphix for blocking, lifegain, and ensuring land drops, alongside Haven of the Spirit Dragon to bring back killed off dragons. You have to go on the aggressive, force them to play defense because you're getting out bigger threats more often and maintaining a broad presence despite their couple of kill spells they'll see by the time you win on turn 5. Sorry so long, everyone. I tend to ramble.
Defpotec says... #2
Isn't esper dragon midrange doing work in standard currently? Stuff like this seems like it would be at the very least a fair matchup with Dragonlord Ojutai's hexproof and even more card advantage.
May 16, 2015 5:03 p.m.