BG Zombies vs. BR Zombies
Standard forum
Posted on Dec. 12, 2012, 11:59 p.m. by AkromaPhage6
Which is the better deck in standard right now: BG Zombies or BR Zombies? Is BR Midrange (basically BR Zombies but adds Thundermaw Hellkite s and Hellrider s) better than both?
Three-Left-Feet says... #3
BR Zombies is much more aggro due to R, and all the cheap spells that come with it. Some cheap removal spells, creatures like Vexing Devil , and if you play with a creature-based deck, cards like Hellrider will give you a simply amazing boost.
However, BG Zombies has many more combos that you can use, because in BR all the creatures won't be zombies. But with BG there's many more options, like Scavenge onto one creature to make it powerful, swing with it if possible, and basically Fling it with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord , even dealing damage to players with Hexproof.
So i'd say what color you choose depends on your playing style. Personally; I love BG Zombies, and using land grab cards like Farseek will speed up your game. But if you don't care for the synergy of your deck and would rather go for all-out-warfare, i'd say go BR, because you will be doing damage faster.
December 13, 2012 8:29 a.m.
I'm basically in the same dilemma.
I made a deck LOL trolling.... only to discover that BR zombies are now more common in pro-tournaments.
So I decided to do a little experiment. I created a deck on this site that I found that was a 1st place winner in a tournament, and then pitted the decks against each other.
Results... a little inconclusive, as I haven't had a lot of time to play them against each other yet... but so far I've played 8 games and it's at 4 games each... I figure if I can win 50% of the matches against a #1 deck in a pro tournament, I can probably do very well at FNM... I'll find out this Friday.
December 13, 2012 8:54 a.m.
TorrentFreak says... #5
B/R zombies all the way, the combination of Pillar of Flame , Searing Spear , Brimstone Volley , Falkenrath Aristocrat , Hellrider , and Thundermaw Hellkite is too much for BG zombies to handle. Sure BG zombies have Lotleth Troll and Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord . But BR wins early game, and mid-game. No questions. The reason BRaggro is so common is because how simple the game style is, and how fast it plays against every deck. Including those dreaded Thragtusk /Restoration Angel combo's. Very few decks match up against the speed and power of BR zombies. BG zombies fell off hard
December 13, 2012 9:02 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #6
I play br zombies and had a friend who played bg zombies. I found that the br version won 90% of the game. The aristocrat alone wins games on turns 4-5 due to messenger/blood artist shenanigans. The burn/ dreadbore additions just aid in keeping the field clear and adding those last few points of reach. Green zombies plays far less aggressively since dredge mangler lacks evasion and the loltroll is usually horrible card disadvantage unless you forgo the 1st turn gravecrawler which slows the deck down. I haven't tried it but I feel green zombies are probably better played alongside blue in a more grindy control based deck.
December 17, 2012 2:01 a.m.
I played BG Zombies at FNM this week, and tore apart most decks. BR Zombies faired among the worst. Falkenrath Aristocrat fell to Tragic Slip every time. Olivia and Thundermaw were removed by Appetite for Brains , and when they came out, a simple Murder ended them quick.
Nothing else in BR Zombies posed a threat. Sure they used Pillar of Flame to exile.... but there only good target was Gravecrawler , as Lotleth Troll was always too big, and I would always have a way to get card:Geralf's Messenger to a 4/3 before they had the chance.
I lost one game in the 2 matches against BR Zombies, to a well timed Bonfire of the Damned
Selesnya was the one deck that walked over me. Fast tokens just made for too chump blockers. Even with Sever the Bloodline , he was able to get them back quick enough to hold off until Sublime Archangel stabilized his board. Flying was the real week point in my deck. Though top 4 out of 20 was a good run for the deck's first time out.
Should be noted that the BR Zombie decks were exact copies of some of the top 8's out there.
December 17, 2012 8:35 a.m.
TorrentFreak says... #8
BR Zombies is top of the standard meta, along with 4-colour control and Bant. BG Zombies can definitely take down BR Zombies, however, BG zombies aren't played by the pros because of the speed and aggression you get with BR. If BR Zombies hasn't dropped;
Turn 1: Gravecrawler or Diregraf Ghoul
Turn 2: Knight of Infamy
turn 3: card:Geralf's Messenger
Turn 4: Hellrider or Falkenrath Aristocrat
Turn 5: Thundermaw Hellkite
B/G zombies can't deal with those threat fast enough, even if he is holding a tragic slip or murder. As anotherbomb said, B/R will win 90% of games due to the speed.
Rayenous, I don't know how this guy built his B/R zombies, but there are about fifteen variations, and the strongest are from GP San Antonio. (Two top 8 BR Zombies, not a single BG even placed) Lotleth Troll is easy to remove from play, Tragic Slip (can't regenerate because it changes his strength to 0, read the rules on regenerate if you disagree) Mark of Mutiny , then sac with Falkenrath Aristocrat , And if this BG zombies is running lots of removal, just sideboard Duress
December 17, 2012 9:37 a.m.
I don't disagree with Tragic Slip not being able to be regenerated... never even hinted that it was.
In fact, that's why I use them in my BG deck... they take out Falkenrath Aristocrat just as easily.
Lotleth Troll however, can survive it, so long as you can discard the 1 creature required to bring his toughness to 2. As such, Tragic Slip is only a threat to Lotleth Troll if it's morbid is active.
I'm not stating that BG is better to play than BR... just that BG can beat BR head-to-head. One of the BR decks I beat did better against the Selesnya deck that I lost to, and I believe was in the the top 2 for that tournament.
December 17, 2012 12:19 p.m.
TorrentFreak says... #10
Some people think they can regenerate from a -X/-X counter, this is why I stated it. Never meant to offend. Tragic Slip is Falkenrath Aristocrat 's mortal enemy lol! Works all to well for 1 cmc. However, I would never use a Tragic Slip on a Lotleth Troll unless morbid was active, too risky. BG Zombies are good, and I LOVE zombie theme. The UB Zombies are fun to play, but the worst of all three multi-colour zombies.
December 17, 2012 12:32 p.m.
I have a fun BUG Zombie deck that I'm working on for fun... it's more powerful than I expected, but not tournament worthy... perhaps that will change when Gatecrash strengthens both UG and BU.
Deck: Jace's House of Undead Minions
If it wasn't a theme deck, I could also strengthen it a bit more. Removing the Cellar Door and Amass the Components , in favor of better control.
December 17, 2012 12:55 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #12
True, but you're still putting a creature in the graveyard to keep the troll alive so it's still not super effective unless you're holding gravecrawlers. If you are then you're hurting your speed by not playing 1 drops. Loltroll is good but I think he works better in more of a frites build where you want to dump creatures in your graveyard.
December 17, 2012 3:25 p.m.
Gravecrawler and Slitherhead . Add in a slightly later game Corpsejack Menace , and you're getting a huge bonus very quick.
I had a 15/14 Trample Regenerate creature on the 6th-7th turn.
The cost of discarding one creature early game, to ensure you have that in the mid-game is more than worth it. Discarding a Diregraf Ghoul is very worth it... Dreg Mangler on turn 4-5 when you can scavenge shortly after, is also not bad.
And it's not as though Lotleth Troll is the only way to win. It's just the quickest 'Bomb', that has to be taken care of right away.
December 17, 2012 4:14 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #14
Yes, but that's a lot of creatures to pitch for something that can be tragic slipped w/ morbid or severed/mutilated/ o ring'd/detention sphered after which those zombies would have been more valuable in play. It just always seemed like putting too many eggs in one basket for me
December 17, 2012 4:44 p.m.
DawnsRayofLight says... #17
go black red, or jund, splashing green gives you some side board options and allows you to play Lotleth Troll . I have seen a lot of interesting zombie variants pop up as of late. One guy let me borrow a jank mono black zombie aggro that ran the classic Blood Artist -Killing Wave package, 14 1-drops, and some other stuff, the deck would have been better if it had some red splashed for burn spells and more kill spells. BG has some support, especially for the side, I just do not see it being as powerful as black red or black red/splash green. I suggest going the jund list splashing green for Dreg Mangler s and Lotleth Troll along with some side stuff to help with hate. otherwise straight up black red, it has the best reach, my list took on four Thragtusk s in one game and still blew the deck out. Just be sure to include plenty of kill spells, you will need them. (My list in case you are interested: Whiskey For My Devils, Brains for my Zombies V.2). Good luck!
December 18, 2012 7:03 p.m.
Vos_Is_Boss says... #18
What I believe needs to be considered, when contesting which deck is "better," is the meta matchup. How does BR zombies contend with the other top decks out there? How does BG zombies contend with the other top decks out there?
If you set up a marathon, for each deck, to play against all the decks in the meta, what will the win percent be from both (including the mirror)? The best deck should be the one that wins the most often against all the archetypes. Not just the mirror.
How does the zombie (BR or BG) deck do against bant control? grixis control? R/W/U Control? Selesnya tokens? Esper tokens? Frites? RDW? geist control? selesnya angel? Thragtusk? Door?
What i like about DawnsRayofLight's message, is that he is suggesting to take the better cards from BG zombies and adding them to BR. Now, I'm not saying that those exact suggestions are the right thing, but consider the package of the deck. BG zombies has access to Abrupt Decay , BR zombies has access to Dreadbore . BR zombies has access to Falkenrath Aristocrat , BG zombies has access to Rancor .
What cards would help an aggro deck more? And with gatecrash coming out, will Jund be able to merge even better? Can there be a zombie aggro deck to use all these facilities and still be fast as hell?
December 19, 2012 10:06 a.m.
DawnsRayofLight says... #19
Black green from what I have seen, lacks the reach and speed to hit bant control or any other control list, it loses to Jund etc. I t does not have too many problems with plain blue white control, but it never recovers from life gain, grixis might have problems without the early pillars. BG vs. BR, I see the BR winning 65% of games, often depending on who goes first, if both have relatively equal draws, BR comes out more often than not, the turn five with black red is usually fatal. I have not seen too many other matchups aside from BG vs. control lists,though the best built one I have seen at my meta usually goes 1-3, it just does not have the reach to come out ahead in my meta which is dominated by Thragtusk . Putting the two in a "marathon" facing the same decks, holding all things constant, black red will probably have the higher percentage, you just need the right build, do not skip out on the burn and kill spells, run at least 8 (Pillar of Flame , Dreadbore , Brimstone Volley , Tragic Slip , Searing Spear , Ultimate Price ), they will get you through the Thragtusk , a lot of the decks I have seen are even running Mark of Mutiny to get around and swing fatal. I will be running my br zombie deck tonight, I'll let you know how it does against what. I have tested it against Jund (beat it 2-1), UW miracles (BR won 2-0), GBW reanimator (beat it 2-0, even after Thragtusk blinks and reanimates for a total gain of 20 life), and a bant midrange I have been attempting to build, winning 70% of the games.
BG had the ability to deal with hate, BR has to deal with it, most of the time it does not make much of a difference, you are primarily playing a rakdos aggro with Gravecrawler s and card:Geralf's Messengers. I do think adding the better cards from green and adding them to the red would be ideal, it allows more versatility, and you really do not need to wait till gate crash, run this land set:
4x Blood Crypt
3x Swamp
I worry about the kesigs in the base, but I feel they would be a bad idea to pass up and could help get in there, but still, it would require some testing to see if it needs to be in. With the 3 colors, you have to worry about what you run, creatures can have double red or green, but pulling the Rancor I have noticed to be difficult with only 8 green sources, you might have to lose the swamps for guildgates, again it would just take a lot of testing to tease out the bad.
December 19, 2012 12:37 p.m.
DawnsRayofLight says... #20
continuing from last:As far as creatures go for Jund
4x Gravecrawler
4x card:Geralf's Messenger
3x Dreg Mangler
4x Hellrider
It sucks losing the Rakdos Shred-Freak s but you pick it up turn 3 with the manglers that can outlast most kill spells. your kill spells will involve 7-8 (which puts you at 61 cards, but it works) try 3x Brimstone Volley , 2x Searing Spear /Abrupt Decay , 2xUltimate Price , I almost would say drop a guy somewhere for a one of Dreadbore ,or some other.Hope that helps!
December 19, 2012 12:38 p.m.
Vos_Is_Boss says... #21
Helps a lot, very good analysis and conclusion. Now its just time to test it out, and find the best sideboard to deal with things like the mirror, control and frites.
December 19, 2012 12:54 p.m.
DawnsRayofLight says... #22
frites: Rakdos Charm , Cremate , that one like cremate that makes a zombie, card:Tormod's Crypt, definitive kill spells like Dreadbore , Ultimate Price , and Sever the Bloodline .
Mirror: Vampire Nighthawk , the above, additional removal spells like Pillar of Flame .
Control: you usually beat their face in too severely for them to recover, usually, you drop a burn and win after they wipe, if they go first, they will wipe a crawler, knight, and messenger/mangler, your turn 4 you have options, usually hasty ones. another Cavern of Souls might help the counter spells, but you have the advantage. side in Dreadbore and Sever the Bloodline for tokens and planeswalkers. Zealous Conscripts also helps a bit.
Demarge says... #2
Braggro is still in the realm of aggro and it is what BR zombies has evolved to. It is also currently superior to BG zombies as it possesses the reach needed in burn spells and the top end you mentioned to punch through the last points to win.
December 13, 2012 1:53 a.m.